Larry Vickers on Firearm Selection

Interesting he is still talking about the P6/P225 which is not really a cheap gun anymore. You used to be able to get a $299 P6/P225 but these days the surplus market has dried up. They are now $400+ pistols. You can get a used 19 Gen 4 for less than a P6 in most areas.

I do agree with a DA/SA if you are not carrying on the body which I don't recommend but we all know people do it.
 
My off body guns are DAO. Thx to OP for the post. I didnt look at date of viddy but damn me and LAV are getting old. Very surprised that he said he had transitioned to 9mm and was advising same. My guess is age and ailments might have something to do with it. I shot with him, Kyle Lamb, Dave Harrington and other operator types way back in the day. Used to pick up his 45 brass back when USPSA shooters did that and he always said "keep it, you paid for it."
 
My off body guns are DAO. Thx to OP for the post. I didnt look at date of viddy but damn me and LAV are getting old. Very surprised that he said he had transitioned to 9mm and was advising same. My guess is age and ailments might have something to do with it. I shot with him, Kyle Lamb, Dave Harrington and other operator types way back in the day. Used to pick up his 45 brass back when USPSA shooters did that and he always said "keep it, you paid for it."

I think the video is recent or at least was posted recently. Looks the same as he did in Feb. LOL
 
Did he? He called it the P6 the West German police model of the P225. At least that is the way I heard it.
You're right, He said the p-6 OR the police version of the 225. Or, as in another name rather than alternate version. Good catch.
 
You're right, He said the p-6 OR the police version of the 225. Or, as in another name rather than alternate version. Good catch.

Those guns were a steal when they were $300. I already owned a P225 or I would have bought one. I always felt the P225 was great in the hand but a bit of a tweeter. By today’s standards it is large for it capacity. Still a great gun.
 
Those guns were a steal when they were $300. I already owned a P225 or I would have bought one. I always felt the P225 was great in the hand but a bit of a tweeter. By today’s standards it is large for it capacity. Still a great gun.
I wanted to love the 225/P-6, I've owned 3. I just couldn't get past the Single/double action thing. Also how the floor plate on the mag sticks out past the grip but that can be ground down.
 
He makes good points. I’ve often wondered if buying all the striker single action guns was the right decision. The next one will be DA/SA so I’ll see. I have only one gun in this trigger set but I never shoot it because it’s a 380.
 
Or just run a thumb safety all the time :)

It was a good overview of the pros and cons of those kinds of platforms.
 
I've never owned or even shot a 1911. What's the meaning of "You can't treat it like a Glock, you're gonna have to raise your game"?
 
I've never owned or even shot a 1911. What's the meaning of "You can't treat it like a Glock, you're gonna have to raise your game"?

I guess he means that you can't just pull the trigger, you also have to manipulate the safety. IDK.
 
I was wondering whether he was referring to disassembly, maintenance, etc. While I've never had one, I do understand they don't just come apart like Glocks.
 
I've never owned or even shot a 1911. What's the meaning of "You can't treat it like a Glock, you're gonna have to raise your game"?

You have to keep 1911s and all metal framed pistols lubed to function properly. Glocks are more tolerant of being run dry and still functioning.
 
I was wondering whether he was referring to disassembly, maintenance, etc. While I've never had one, I do understand they don't just come apart like Glocks.

Also you have to understand the basics of how the gun is designed and functions. As AMP mentioned lubrication requirements are also different. Another major factor is with Glock you have a single manufacturer and then a small number of people making aftermarket parts which are actually mechanical parts vs cosmetic parts like grips and sights.

Not everyone adheres to the same spec. While not complicated things like how the sear spring works is basic knowledge any 1911 owner who uses it for self defense should know. For example 1911 owners should understand how to tension and extractor and how it can effect feeding. How to chose what magazine to run it is best to understand how the 1911 feeds and the different magazine designs and how they effect function. That way when you purchase magazines they will run reliably in your gun. The tolerances from one manufacturer to another might stack in a way that just does not work. You need to know enough to keep it within a reliable working range. It is really not that hard but it is not as simple as a Glock or even a Sig. IMHO

Ken Hackathorn does not call them “The Worlds Finest Close QuartersSidearm”… and, “King of feedway stoppages." for no reason.
 
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I've never owned or even shot a 1911. What's the meaning of "You can't treat it like a Glock, you're gonna have to raise your game"?

What @wvsig @Amp Mangum said, also the manual of arms is a bit more involved. You really need to practice/train if you use a 1911 as a carry gun or the first time you get an adrenaline dump you won't be able to manipulate it without shaking like a leaf on a tree. Not hard, at all, just different.

BTW, the LAV-built 1911s are unicorns, and really, really nice....
 
What @wvsig @Amp Mangum said, also the manual of arms is a bit more involved. You really need to practice/train if you use a 1911 as a carry gun or the first time you get an adrenaline dump you won't be able to manipulate it without shaking like a leaf on a tree. Not hard, at all, just different.

BTW, the LAV-built 1911s are unicorns, and really, really nice....

If you shoot enough 1911 or other cocked and locked handguns like the 75B or BHP you instinctively thumb the safety off as you present the gun even if there is no safety. LOL I find when shooting Glocks or P Series Sigs my thumb still makes the same motion on presentation.

I am not sure about shaking like a leaf but I have seen new 1911 shooters bobble the draw and shot because they did not thumb down the safety.
 
If you shoot enough 1911 or other cocked and locked handguns like the 75B or BHP you instinctively thumb the safety off as you present the gun even if there is no safety. LOL I find when shooting Glocks or P Series Sigs my thumb still makes the same motion on presentation.

I am not sure about shaking like a leaf but I have seen new 1911 shooters bobble the draw and shot because they did not thumb down the safety.

I hear you. I went from 1911s to others; my thumb still instinctively drops.

When I say 'shake...', I am referencing drawing and using in a for-real shooting situation. If you have not trained, once you get the adrenaline dump, if you are not comfortable with the manual of arms, it's just going to be a tad tricky is all. Not a point-and-click like a Glock.
 
Think about competitions, With all the race tuned $5000 1911's on the field having someone come in with a zero is a common occurrence. The more finely tuned they are, the more prone to failure.
 
Think about competitions, With all the race tuned $5000 1911's on the field having someone come in with a zero is a common occurrence. The more finely tuned they are, the more prone to failure.

You can definitely shrink the tolerances to the point of failure but I would not say that the more finely tuned a 1911 is the more prone to failure. You can build a 1911 for different purposes. You can make them race guns or highly reliable defense guns. Both variants can cost big bucks.

I think the #1 problem with 1911 reliability these days is that most people treat the JMB design not the blueprint that it is but instead as a suggestion. They take it into account but then apply modern manufacturing techniques to lower the cost and speed up production. Add that to the fact they change the spec to allow for faster cheaper production and you get tolerances stacking and causing issues.

I think that is why Vickers is suggesting 1911s around the $1,000 mark and up.
 
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Think about competitions, With all the race tuned $5000 1911's on the field having someone come in with a zero is a common occurrence. The more finely tuned they are, the more prone to failure.
I disagree with that statement. I have seen some high dollar guns fail but I think that’s the exception and not the rule. I also believe that the majority of even those failures were ammo or magazine failures.
 
I kinda agree with the higher the performance the greater likelihood for failure. You see it in racing engines all the time.
 
NO CZ BURN HIM.


I interchange between safeties and Grocks no prob. Grocks are carry guns and guns with safeties are competition guns. Never been a problem. Maybe because the Glocks feel so different, but upon draw I don't go for the safety at all, and I hardly shoot the Glocks comparatively, but I've found no cross confusion.

But I carry them different and store them different, and I don't change carry guns ever. They're always glocks, although I do have 3 different ones (42, 43, 19).
 
Do you 1911 shooters agree with his statement that you should spend at least $1k to get a decent example?
 
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I kinda agree with the higher the performance the greater likelihood for failure. You see it in racing engines all the time.

Tolerances are different. Combat guns are wider tolerances. Minute of pie plate at 10 yards is usually OK. Marines still use 1911s with frames made in the 40s and 50s. You can shake them and they rattle like crazy, but nothing stops them.
 
Do you 1911 shooter agree with his statement that you should spend at least $1k to get a decent example?

No. Plenty of OK 1911s sub-$1K. The secret is, don't do anything to them. The only thing most sub-$1K 1911s need are trigger jobs and sights. Anything else you tinker with or change out, you start screwing around with fittings and tolerances. It also depends on what you want. What I described is a carry or range 1911, it would likely make not-a-great competition gun.

That said, there is a qualitative and quantitative difference between a $800 1911, a $1,500 1911, and a $3K-5K 1911.
 
No. Plenty of OK 1911s sub-$1K. The secret is, don't do anything to them. The only thing most sub-$1K 1911s need are trigger jobs and sights. Anything else you tinker with or change out, you start screwing around with fittings and tolerances. It also depends on what you want. What I described is a carry or range 1911, it would likely make not-a-great competition gun.

That said, there is a qualitative and quantitative difference between a $800 1911, a $1,500 1911, and a $3K-5K 1911.

I disagree with this. The #1 thing that messes up a 1911 is a Bubba trigger job. Things like hammer follow, poor sear and hammer engagement etc... all happen on people taking cheap guns and doing trigger jobs on them. Most cheap, sub $1,000 1911s are going to have MIM hammer and sears. They will take a trigger job but will not hold it for as long as steel tool. Wilson stopped using MIM for this exact reason. Colt uses them which is why a lot of people replace the sear and disconnect in Colts. I am not a complete MIM hater. I know it is here to stay and there are good MIM parts and bad MIM parts.

So when you do a trigger job on a RIA, Taurus, Ruger, lower end Springfield etc... you are taking a risk. Less with a SA than the others but still a risk. IMHO Can sub $1,000 1911s work as a defense gun. Sure they can but if I have the choice between using a sub $1,000 1911 or a Glock 19 I am taking the Glock 19. If I was going to run a sub $1,000 1911 as a defensive gun I would not change a thing. I would test the gun throughly and learn how to maintain it but I would not do a trigger job on the factory parts. This is does not mean sub $1,000 1911 are not good guns but they would not be defensive guns for me. YMMV

Now taking a lower end gun and using it as a base gun for a custom job is different story. I would say taking a SA Loaded and changing out the ignition set with steel tooled parts is a reasonable approach but you are then getting close to that $1,000 mark if you are paying a reputable smith to do the work.
 
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@wvsig , by no means I'm talking about a Bubba trigger job or any kind of Bubba project. I'm not smart enough to do those things, so I sent them to a gunsmith to have them done. The biggest problem with any 1911 under $1,000 is a crappy trigger.

But then my experiences are with the MEU(SOC) 1911s and having those armors build my personal guns.
 
@wvsig , by no means I'm talking about a Bubba trigger job or any kind of Bubba project. I'm not smart enough to do those things, so I sent them to a gunsmith to have them done. The biggest problem with any 1911 under $1,000 is a crappy trigger.

But then my experiences are with the MEU(SOC) 1911s and having those armors build my personal guns.
Crappy 1911 triggers are like pizza and sex, even bad 1911 triggers are better than glock.
 
@wvsig , by no means I'm talking about a Bubba trigger job or any kind of Bubba project. I'm not smart enough to do those things, so I sent them to a gunsmith to have them done. The biggest problem with any 1911 under $1,000 is a crappy trigger.

But then my experiences are with the MEU(SOC) 1911s and having those armors build my personal guns.

OK but having someone with that level of expertise do your trigger job in the civilian market will take a $500 1911 and push is very close to the $1,000 range. For examples someone like Don Williams of The Action Works will charge you $524 for a basic street package trigger job and replacement sights and a reblue of the slide. Trigger job with a new hammer sear etc... $303 add $135 for a reliability package. Now I personally consider Mr Williams one of the top 1911 smiths in the business so his pricing might be on the high side but still you see where I am going with that.
 
The tolerances on my Kimber Crimson Carry 2 was so tight it was almost impossible to reassemble. It was my first venture into pistols and not a good first handgun selection. I enjoy shooting 1911s and they are beautiful guns but I will never carry one for a dependable defensive carry gun. Coached and locked also makes me a little uneasy for some reason and I can’t get over it.
 
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The tolerances on my Kimber Crimson Carry 2 was so tight it was almost impossible to reassemble. It was my first venture into pistols and not a good first handgun selection. I enjoy shooting 1911s and they are beautiful guns but I will never carry one for a dependable defensive carry gun. Coached and locked also makes me a little uneasy for some reason and I can’t get over it.

For many people the carrying cocked and locked is a mental barrier they cannot get over. The good thing is there are so many options these days there is no need to force yourself into something you are not comfortable with.
 
There is absolutely nothing wrong with any of the Springfield Range Officer variants in 9 or 45, and they are easily under $1000. They are what I would recommend to someone looking for a first 1911 for fun. A GI version is even less expensive and runs fine, it just has fixed sights and doesn't have as many competition features built in from the start.
 
Coached and locked also makes me a little uneasy for some reason and I can’t get over it.
I have never understood this. People carry Glocks cocked and _un_locked all the time, and having a manual safety also engaged is worrisome? Assuming you are familiar enough to flip it off during the draw (after it is no longer pointed at your leg!) what is the downside to the additional safety? If you are someone that would carry a Glock without a round in the chamber, sure, then I get it :)
 
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There is absolutely nothing wrong with any of the Springfield Range Officer variants in 9 or 45, and they are easily under $1000. They are what I would recommend to someone looking for a first 1911 for fun. A GI version is even less expensive and runs fine, it just has fixed sights and doesn't have as many competition features built in from the start.

Would you carry a Range Officer or use it as home defense gun or just a range toy?
 
If you want a carry 1911, you should bite the bullet, not save up money, and buy a Glock 19 like 1911 expert Bill Wilson. Unfortunately, you are gonna have to find a way to spend the extra 500$ you are left with.

Lolz.
 
Would you carry a Range Officer or use it as home defense gun or just a range toy?
I would certainly carry one. My primary carry is a slightly smaller Springfield EMP9. My pocket carry is a Sig 938. Both are single action, thumb safety guns. I have not carried a full size 1911 yet, but I did recently get a Crossbreed Supertuck for exactly that.
 
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If you want a carry 1911, you should bite the bullet, not save up money, and buy a Glock 19 like 1911 expert Bill Wilson. Unfortunately, you are gonna have to find a way to spend the extra 500$ you are left with.

Lolz.
I just don't shoot them as well. I'd have to retrain for the different grip angle. I do carry an M&P9 sometimes, mostly under a winter jacket. I have nothing against Glocks, they just don't work for me. I have drawn to a target many many thousands of times, and I am not going to mess with that muscle memory.
 
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