Laser talk (ir/vis) civilian or class 3

Avery

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I bought a zenitco Perst 4 gen 3 a few years back. I figured since I didn’t have access to class 3 lasers at the time, I’d buy the most powerful unit I could get my hands on. Which was very affordable at the time… since I’ve owned it I managed to break it, fix it, and now I continue to beat on it! It’s my only weapon mounted laser atm and I rarely use it on full power. Id like to get a class 3 Dbal eventually but everyone knows that’s a pretty penny. Thoughts on civilian lasers? Any lasers found to have better ir flood than others? Anyone have good experiences with holosun lasers?

Thanks for the read!
 
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The benefit of a full power laser device is mostly in the illuminator. A .7mW laser is enough most of the time. I've owned and shot with a Perst 3, got to shoot and try out some DBALs(I forget which), and played with a Holosun LS321 and an ATPIAL-C.

The civilian lasers with low power only FDA limited lasers and low power laser based illuminators(Holosun LS series, DBAL A3, ATPIAL-C) all have very poor illuminator performance, but better than nothing. Some have diffusers, some are compatible with Crane plugs, some have better or more accessible controls, some have adjustable focus, some don't, some have better or worse form factors for mounting on rails near optics, but all are very low performance.

The Steiner DBAL D2 is a giant unit with an FDA limited .7mW laser and a very effective, but LED based, illuminator. The unit is so large that it's probably best mounted in front of a high mount optic. I don't think you can zero the illuminator to the laser, so your laser won't be centered in the illuminator ring. It has no diffuser. I have heard anecdotally that Steiner has poor build quality and reliability, and don't honor their warranty, so I will avoid them.

Full power PEQs are out there. They are expensive. I don't know how you can verify if you're buying one that was sold legitimately vs stolen from the military. They seem to be mostly sold in FB and Instagram groups, and I refuse to use those platforms. L3 won't work on these if they wear out, so you have no better warranty support than a Perst.

The Perst-3 unit is supposedly still possible to get but costs more than a full power PEQ15 and close to the price of a MAWL, so I'd go with one of those. I have by far the most experience with one of these. If anyone wants to hear about that, let me know.

Finally, there are the current crop of VCSEL devices. VCSEL technology somehow gets around the FDA .7mW laser limit for the illuminators. The VCSEL illuminators are on par with the old full power devices. The laiming asers are .7mW, but that is much less of a performance gap. Examples of these would be the MAWL-C1, NGAL, and Raid-Xe. These start well over 3000$, rapidly increase in price from there, and may or may not actually be available to us peasants in a .7mW civilian aiming laser format. I can't afford these, so I haven't spent much time learning about them.

One other option is the Phantom Hill CTF line of products. It's pretty much an aiming laser and mount for two flashlight heads, one for a Surefire compatible white light(or Vampire?) head of your choice and another for either a Surefire compatible IR head, or a BE Meyers KIJI.

There are rumors of new VCSEL civilian devices coming out soon. USNV DesignateIR(already out), Eotech OGL, things from other companies. If a full featured VCSEL civilian laser device is released at a reasonable price all the old devices will be obsolete. I need to buy another IR device but I will be waiting for SHOT Show to see what is announced.
 
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Fred summed it up nicely.

Imo the two best (brightest) civ illuminators currently available are the Dbal D2 and the Luna ELIR.
 
^^ Yeah, the Luna is a nice unit! A little big and clunky but puts out great illumination. JRH is the only vendor that I know of that stocked them.
 
Is "bigger", "more powerful", or "better" always better? Or necessary?

I have a DBAL-i2 w/green visible (0.7mw) and IR lasers. No illumination built in. For illumination I either run a Surefire M600/Arisaka body with KM2 (120mw IR) head or no illuminator at all. Other than the 2 lasers not being slaved (annoying to zero), it's been great.

I've run ~10 night events/matches plus personal goof off (aka training) time with that set up. I have not found it limiting in any way. In the last Night Ops Run n Gun, I went 1:1 on the "long range" rile targets using the IR laser.

If you're thinking SHTF or other fantasy scenarios, the current doctrine seems to lean towards NOT running IR illumination since NODS are so plentiful you may as well being running white light. Passive is the way to go.
 
Is "bigger", "more powerful", or "better" always better? Or necessary?

I have a DBAL-i2 w/green visible (0.7mw) and IR lasers. No illumination built in. For illumination I either run a Surefire M600/Arisaka body with KM2 (120mw IR) head or no illuminator at all. Other than the 2 lasers not being slaved (annoying to zero), it's been great.

I've run ~10 night events/matches plus personal goof off (aka training) time with that set up. I have not found it limiting in any way. In the last Night Ops Run n Gun, I went 1:1 on the "long range" rile targets using the IR laser.

If you're thinking SHTF or other fantasy scenarios, the current doctrine seems to lean towards NOT running IR illumination since NODS are so plentiful you may as well being running white light. Passive is the way to go.
Personally I like being able to walk around a ~200yd wide field and hit the other side with an illuminator to see what's actually there. For my purposes, the Dbal D2 fits the bill perfectly. I can aim passively through an eotech with or without ilum or I can aim actively with the IR laser. IMO both are limited to around 150 ish yards under nods. Beyond that you're chasing laser splash on your target for vis and hits are much less consistent.

SHTF should not dictate practical use IMO. If you're thinking SHTF you better have thermal. Practically speaking, if I'm going to shoot something under nods I want to be damn well certain of what it is. For that reason, I want a bright ass illuminator. That's just my thoughts, YMMV.
 
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Is "bigger", "more powerful", or "better" always better? Or necessary?

I have a DBAL-i2 w/green visible (0.7mw) and IR lasers. No illumination built in. For illumination I either run a Surefire M600/Arisaka body with KM2 (120mw IR) head or no illuminator at all. Other than the 2 lasers not being slaved (annoying to zero), it's been great.

I've run ~10 night events/matches plus personal goof off (aka training) time with that set up. I have not found it limiting in any way. In the last Night Ops Run n Gun, I went 1:1 on the "long range" rile targets using the IR laser.

If you're thinking SHTF or other fantasy scenarios, the current doctrine seems to lean towards NOT running IR illumination since NODS are so plentiful you may as well being running white light. Passive is the way to go.
In your SHTF/fantasy scenario, the idea of NOT running IR illumination is relevant for the opening shot and pretty much NOT beyond it -- and only really applicable to NODs. (i.e., You're still screwed if the threat is using thermal, and when you don't know what the threat is, you should probably assume it has thermal if you're already assuming it has NODs.)

"More powerful" is absolutely "better" in the case of class 3 lasers. I can put a crisp, clean IR spot on a target at 400-600 yards for target identification under NODs without issue with my full power PERST-3's illuminator. I can also slap the flood cap in place and instantly have localized daylight-like illumination all around me with the PERST-3. In fact, I tend to run it with the flood cap in place with the momentary switch set to bring on the IR designator plus IR illuminator so that I get an IR dot amidst a wash of IR flood light that makes my helmet-mounted Surefire with vampire head look like a sad, sick joke. (The PERST-3's flood literally lights up everything in the field of view and then some under NODs ~without~ producing something so bright that it reflects heavily off close-range things and causes tubes to autogate. High-powered spots at close range tend to have that problem, and the PERST-3 is no exception when using the spot up close.)

Note that while the IR spot of the PERST-3 can reach 400-600 yards easily (I've not tried farther due to a tree line where I tested being 600 yards out), I personally can't see well enough at that distance (without magnification) to determine friend or foe. However, I ~can~ discern man from deer or bear at that distance ... so it's still quite relevant in my neck of the woods.

Finally, class 3 lasers are NOT eye-safe -- meaning they're usable as a weapon, themselves -- one that can fry a target's eyeballs without the target realizing it unless it has NODs. Core to this is there's no blink response to IR light, and the energy levels of full power lasers are potent enough to damage the eyes (hence the LEO/military/medical license restriction on US-manufactured units).

Now, while I've stated the reasons "more powerful" is absolutely "better", one may not want or need any of the capabilities I mentioned -- in which case, a less powerful illuminator/designator that meets one's mission needs is absolutely fine. Kit should always be geared for one's needs, after all. Thus, "more powerful" being "better" may or may not translate to "necessary", as necessity is really dictated by one's mission/intent, not one's gear.


Personally I like being able to walk around a ~200yd wide field and hit the other side with an illuminator to see what's actually there. For my purposes, the Dbal D2 fits the bill perfectly. I can aim passively through an eotech with or without ilum or I can aim actively with the IR laser. IMO both are limited to around 150 ish yards under nods. Beyond that you're chasing laser splash on your target for vis and hits are much less consistent.

SHTF should not dictate practical use IMO. If you're thinking SHTF you better have thermal. Practically speaking, if I'm going to shoot something under nods I want to be damn well certain of what it is. For that reason, I want a bright ass illuminator. That's just my thoughts, YMMV.
This is spot-on and the way I roll, too -- i.e. passive aiming with an EXPS3 with or without illumination; active aiming with the designator+illuminator (using flood cap since the flood on the PERST-3 is amazing). I agree with the splash comment at range, too, especially with the (comparatively) dirty-looking PERST-3 designator. But still, illumination at farther ranges can be used for determining animal from man if one disengages the designator...
 
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@Avery Pictures are worth 1000 words, and moving ones are worth yet more.
Here's a PERST-3 vs. DBAL-D2 comparison. The entire video is good, but the video under NODs (which is where I start you from in this link) is exemplary of what I was talking about, as this guy shows the washout of an illuminated target by a full-power laser at close range, the designator splash of a full power laser at close range when the designator is on high, the flood cap capability, and even the 'dirtiness' of the Russian laser (which might bother some people, but it doesn't bother me, at all).
Having the illuminator on high w/ its flood cap on ... and the designator on low ... is how I run, and he shows that, too. That's something I really liked about the PERST-3, btw, as it's my understanding you can't control them separately, to taste, on other units. (Some give low/med/high, but the PERST-3 lets you dial in what you like for the designator and the illuminator, separately.)

Good luck getting PERST-3's today. Mine originated in Ukraine, shipped through Moscow,. and eventually made it's way from the west coast, to me, when being shipped. I strongly suspect both the Ruskies and the Ukrainians are keeping what they've got for their own uses, nowadays...

 
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@Avery Pictures are worth 1000 words, and moving ones are worth yet more.
Here's a PERST-3 vs. DBAL-D2 comparison. The entire video is good, but the video under NODs (which is where I start you from in this link) is exemplary of what I was talking about, as this guy shows the washout of an illuminated target by a full-power laser at close range, the designator splash of a full power laser at close range when the designator is on high, the flood cap capability, and even the 'dirtiness' of the Russian laser (which might bother some people, but it doesn't bother me, at all).
Having the illuminator on high w/ its flood cap on ... and the designator on low ... is how I run, and he shows that, too. That's something I really liked about the PERST-3, btw, as it's my understanding you can't control them separately, to taste, on other units. (Some give low/med/high, but the PERST-3 lets you dial in what you like for the designator and the illuminator, separately.)

Good luck getting PERST-3's today. Mine originated in Ukraine, shipped through Moscow,. and eventually made it's way from the west coast, to me, when being shipped. I strongly suspect both the Ruskies and the Ukrainians are keeping what they've got for their own uses, nowadays...


Good video, thanks for sharing. My only hesitation with buying one now is, like you said, finding one. Did you get yours from eBay or Ivan tactical?
 
@Avery Pictures are worth 1000 words, and moving ones are worth yet more.
Here's a PERST-3 vs. DBAL-D2 comparison. The entire video is good, but the video under NODs (which is where I start you from in this link) is exemplary of what I was talking about, as this guy shows the washout of an illuminated target by a full-power laser at close range, the designator splash of a full power laser at close range when the designator is on high, the flood cap capability, and even the 'dirtiness' of the Russian laser (which might bother some people, but it doesn't bother me, at all).
Having the illuminator on high w/ its flood cap on ... and the designator on low ... is how I run, and he shows that, too. That's something I really liked about the PERST-3, btw, as it's my understanding you can't control them separately, to taste, on other units. (Some give low/med/high, but the PERST-3 lets you dial in what you like for the designator and the illuminator, separately.)

Good luck getting PERST-3's today. Mine originated in Ukraine, shipped through Moscow,. and eventually made it's way from the west coast, to me, when being shipped. I strongly suspect both the Ruskies and the Ukrainians are keeping what they've got for their own uses, nowadays...


FWIW D2 has vis high, vis low, high IR point, high IR point/low illum, high IR point/high IR illum, then just high IR illum. If you want just low IR illum you can run the 4th setting and simply cap the laser. And obv the illum focus is completely adjustable.

IIRC the full power laser on the PERST-3 was originally designed to signal position and/or paint targets to air support.
 
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@Avery

A friend owns the Holosun unit and I've played with it more than anything except my Perst.

1. In the category of .7mW illuminator devices, it is the dimmest. It's still more useful than an ATPIAL-C, because it can focus. The .7mW category illuminators are all better than nothing- but still terrible. My Perst is 500mW, I think a PEQ15 is 250. You need all the help you can get with a civ device. But if small differences in barely functional illuminators matter to you you should probably look at VCSEL or full power instead. It's a clean illuminator, unlike an ATPIAL-C. Or Perst.
2. It focuses out from a narrow beam out to an exceptionally huge, wide, cone, which is nice in a unit with no diffuser, and it does this with a knob on the back, no groping around up front and getting fingerprints and dirt on the lens. I like that.
3. All 3 lasers, the illuminator, visible, and aiming, are in one aligned unit. So you only have to zero the visible or IR laser, the illuminator and other laser don't have to be zeroed separately. This might be why there's no diffuser, it would cover the vis and aiming laser as well.
4. No diffuser. Since it's only .7mW, I don't think a diffuser is necessary, the incredibly wide cone won't blind you inside and spreads out plenty. Using the knob on the back to adjust focus is convenient and fast.
5. I think it is compatible with aftermarket switches, but look that up if that matters. It comes with its own tape switch.
6. For the form factor, It's not huge, but it is tall. The zeroing protrusion and button on top are as high as a standard AR front sight post and the front sight is between them. It will be very visible in your still usable dot window if you run a 1/3 cowitness. Sitting so high above the rail leaves plenty of room for different flashlight mounting options, at least, and everyone else runs risers or higher than 1/3rd dot mounts anyway, so this may not matter at all.
7. I can't get my thumb on top of it to hit the button in a firing grip, so I would have to use the tape switch to trigger it, which means I'd have to fit a large tape switch somewhere on my rail or get an expensive aftermarket button to use one. My left hand is small, YMMV. The button has a nice feel to it, though.
8. It doesn't seem particularly fragile. Holosun has a good reputation in durable optics. I suspect the LS321 will hold up. No diffuser to tear off, very few moving parts, none of them exposed except the turrets and focus knob, and the form factor is a solid feeling brick. I think it is most likely more durable than the competition, which is a very low standard.
9. The controls are fine. The rear knob has all the options you need in a .7mW laser, which is to say, vis high, IR laser high, and IR laser illuminator both high. It has some other settings you won't use. In a full power device you might want to dial your power levels more precisely to handle laser bloom(@surrealone mentioned this), range, safety in close quarters, etc, in a .7mW device you just use high.
[EDIT] 10. The price is attractive, it's higher than it used to be, but the ATPIAL-C has risen 500$ in a few years, the MAWL goes up several hundred a year, and it might be better to go with something cheap rather than expensive if VCSEL is about to revolutionize the market in a year or two anyway.

Do you want the Perst 3 summary too?
I appreciate the review. Gives me another idea of what to expect since I don’t really have any experience with lasers that are not full power.
We all know how capable full power lasers are and I’d love a perst 3 or a Dbal a2 but lately the wallet’s been like, “don’t do it.”
I’m thinking it might serve well on a shorty pcc considering size and performance.
 
Good video, thanks for sharing. My only hesitation with buying one now is, like you said, finding one. Did you get yours from eBay or Ivan tactical?
Ivan Tactical -- just as the pandemic commenced (i.e. early 2021). I won't consider electronic night vision-related gear from ebay due to too many risks/unknowns.
 
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Thanks for bringing my attention to the importance of illuminators in this thread. I went with the Dbal a2 and while playing around with the illuminator I could tell a huge difference in the civilian versus high power illuminator while in dark conditions with urban light pollution.

The a2 also came with a free zyn pouch ;)

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Everyone was hyped for the OGL last year, which turned out to be a massive tease, I really hope that Holosun obliterates the NV laser market.
 
I run a wilcox ratar es lite on my carbine and a peq14 fp on my pistol. Honestly if holosun delivers it will be great and a welcome option.
 
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