Legality of VFGs on AR pistols?

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I'm sure this question has been asked to death, but can you guys weigh in?

If someone builds an AR pistol from scratch, can that person legally add a vertical foregrip? If no, how about an angled foregrip?

What's the consensus on VFGs on AR pistols?
 
I believe a vertical grip is a no-go; angled fore grip or hand stops are good to go.
Yes, that's my belief as well. But I have never seen it written anywhere. I wondered what everyone else thought as well. Thank you for your help.
 
I believe a vertical grip is a no-go; angled fore grip or hand stops are good to go.
This is correct.

VFG gets you an AOW.

Unless OAL >26”, then it’s just a firearm. ;)
 
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Thanks guys! I appreciate the quick feedback and funny memes.
 
Wallet holsters are another thing that I bet a lot of people buy and don’t realize (with some of the designs) they’re carrying an unregistered AOW.
 
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I stopped reading those letters at "ATF has long held" because I want to finish that sentence with other phrases that may offend.

BATFEces-crazy regulations.
 
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Wallet holsters are another thing that I bet a lot of people buy and don’t realize (with some of the designs) they’re carrying an unregistered AOW.
Please elaborate as I carry my kahr in my back pocket. I think you mean guns that look like wallets, not guns that fit in a wallet sized holster.
 
Please elaborate as I carry my kahr in my back pocket. I think you mean guns that look like wallets, not guns that fit in a wallet sized holster.
Correct. If it’s a completely closed holster, it’s not an issue. But if it covers the gun and has a trigger opening, such that it can be fired concealed, it’s an AOW (only when the firearm is inserted).

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One of those things that gets sold at gun shows, and are completely legal...until the owner gets home and inserts a pistol without an approved Form 1.

Just like those “solvent traps” or oil filter adapters...the dealers never mention the up to 10 years and $10,000 it would cost you the moment you fired a round through it.
 
Resurrecting an old thread. But does the “vertical” part apply to the front of the grip? Aka could a railscales anchor be mounted with the flat part in the rear, angle in the front? Or is that asking for trouble?

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In the near future anything like a front grip or handstop is most likely gonna make it an SBR, so best not get comfortable with it.
 
In the near future anything like a front grip or handstop is most likely gonna make it an SBR, so best not get comfortable with it.
Don’t care much for braces so I think I’ll just suck it up and SBR. Thanks for the reply
 
Resurrecting an old thread. But does the “vertical” part apply to the front of the grip? Aka could a railscales anchor be mounted with the flat part in the rear, angle in the front? Or is that asking for trouble?

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If you spend some time searching the interwebs, you will eventually find two documents that people use for this discussion:

The first is a "determination" by the ATF around adding a vertical grip to a handgun, located here: https://www.atf.gov/file/97256/download

Several key pieces of this that do very little to help clarify:
1: notice the definitions of "handgun" and "pistol" at the top, and how both note they are designed and intended to be fired from one hand. As we know today, that is complete and utter bull. Can they be fired one handed? Sure. Are we all using 2 hands when we can for better control and accuracy? Duh.
2: The crux of the argument from the ATF falls back on the definition of adding a VFG changes the "design and intent": ATF has long held that by installing a vertical fore grip on a handgun, the handgun is no longer designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand. Therefore, if individuals install a vertical fore grip on a handgun, they are “making” a firearm requiring registration with ATF’s NFA Branch.

Now we know the above to be a crock as even with the favorable "determination" of the pistol brace addition to the AR platform, the AR platform was never designed and intended to be fired one handed. The fallback on that is what establishes the "not converting a rifle to a pistol" and that if you order a stripped or complete lower, and have never installed the upper to it, the process of completing the "creation" of a rifle has never happened. So instead you add a brace, and magically, you have now designed and created a firearm that is "designed to be held and fired using a single hand."

Notice nowhere in the above is there any consideration for ACTUAL USE of the firearm; that is to say using two hands to fire a revolver or Glock because it makes it more accurate, the same as shouldering a pistol brace because it makes you more accurate.

The second letter that pops up is a letter from the ATF to a specific manufacturer of an angled foregrip, asking for clarity and a "determination" on their product. This letter is often pointed to in relation to the "if it's anything other than 90 degrees, you're ok to put it on there". However, if one simply reads the very next paragraph of that same letter, it explicitly states that the determination is only intended for use by the addressed individual or company with regard to the specific scenario described within that correspondence.
ATFletter vertical grip definition.jpg

In summary, the ATF are idiots and you can do what you want as a free American.
 
Letters are always only good for the specific situation described and the person that asked it. Doesn’t mean we don’t all quote from them when the topics come up.

I’ve also seen email replies from local ATF agents where they say they don’t differentiate based on the angle of the foregrip. It’s either there or it’s not.
 
I just moved from NJ where you can't put any foregrip on a rifle but an "other firearm" has to have (I'm sure we all know the rules and why) one. Also, cannot put the angled foregrip on an "other" but vertical is ok.......in NJ. I'm not sure what is legal in NC on my rifle yet but looking to add an angled foregrip to both my rifle and "other" if legal.
 
I just moved from NJ where you can't put any foregrip on a rifle but an "other firearm" has to have (I'm sure we all know the rules and why) one. Also, cannot put the angled foregrip on an "other" but vertical is ok.......in NJ. I'm not sure what is legal in NC on my rifle yet but looking to add an angled foregrip to both my rifle and "other" if legal.
First of all, welcome. Second, with the rifle you can add any foregrip straight or angled you like. Third, for other see the link below for ATF guidelines. You can add any that are ATF compliant.

 
Looks like I'm stuck with a vertical foregrip on my "other". Thanks for the reference!
Do not get “other firearm” and “any other weapon” confused. They’re completely different, and it could be a very costly mistake.

Your reply leads me to believe you might not be aware of the difference. If I’m reading that wrong, forgive me. I’m not sure what exactly NJ may have taught you. 😁
 
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No problem, I appreciate the response and learning NC laws as we go. I understand what an other is, however; the literature is not clear on what they are talking about in terms of restrictions for accesories/foregrips. My other was purchased in NJ and was factory assembled to be compliant.....so I know I'm good to go in NC. In NJ there are further cosmetic/accesory restrictions (can't put any foregrip on a rifle) that don't exist here. I moved here with a rifle and an other. If I can legally change the vertical foregrip (on my other) to angled, I will do so.
 
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No problem, I appreciate the response and learning NC laws as we go. I understand what an other is, however; the literature is not clear on what they are talking about in terms of restrictions for accesories/foregrips. My other was purchased in NJ and was factory assembled to be compliant.....so I know I'm good to go in NC. In NJ there are further cosmetic/accesory restrictions (can't put any foregrip on a rifle) that don't exist here. I moved here with a rifle and an other. If I can legally change the vertical foregrip (on my other) to angled, I will do so.
Ok.

That link above only pertains to NFA “Any Other Weapons”…not “other firearms”.

NC doesn’t have any weird configuration laws I’m aware of.
 
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There is an ambiguous sentence that may be addressing, specifically others...maybe not. That's the problem lol. I just have to be carefull (not that anyone is checking) that I don't modify my other to where it looks like I'm taking away the purpose of being fired with two hands and not shouldered. For some reason a vertical foregrip maintains this and angled doesn't.....in NJ.
 
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