Lever action AR

Discussion in 'AR Pattern Rifles' started by BigWaylon, Aug 2, 2019.

  1. BigWaylon

    BigWaylon Head philatelist Staff Member Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    The guy on AR15 that is designing most of the crazy lowers has a special set of skills. He’s been working to build a Red Ryder tribute AR and posted these recently. The lower was something they released, and he went from there.

    A88978F6-803C-4050-A26A-CCDD5860357B.jpeg 60204481-B12D-4394-8C46-A7F55850628A.jpeg 1C7EF8D7-DC77-4464-B0E4-6EB9B126CE21.jpeg


    Somebody asked him a question about the lever engaging the BCG and he said:

    The lever action reciprocating arm assembly does indeed interlock with the carrier. My original design allowed for the upper and lower receivers to pivot at the front pin just like any normal AR. Engaging the modified carrier of what would have been the buffer "now the feed arm assembly", together. However, due to the normal machining tolerances of AR parts, the slightest amount of play remained. Which I did not like at all. The push/pull of the arm and carrier "play", was not in the connection of the two parts, it was in the vertical play between the buffer tube/lower, and the upper receiver specs designed for carrier travel. Not unlike some piston carrier tilt issues, if that makes any sense. That design had a wobble at the tube and lower tube threads. My solution for this was to make sure the arm and carrier locked together in a way that would not allow for any vertical travel.

    If you pull both pins of an AR, keeping the upper and lower receivers together, the upper will slide forward just slightly inside the lower before the upper take-down legs contact lower internals, forcing a stop. This gap between the rear of the upper receiver and the lower buffer tube extension, is normally a space of .175-.195. While I cannot extend the carrier, I can extend the locking mechanics to protrude farther out of the buffer tube assembly (but no longer capable of front take down pin rotation). This allows the upper and lowers just enough space to fit together (upper being slightly forward of the lower), slide back into position, allowing the take-down pins to engage, seating the arm back inside the tube slightly, locking the two halves together just inside the buffer tube assembly. No more play, and also helping to ensure the action functions more smoothly.


    Thought some here might appreciate the project.
     
  2. NoNameHaveI

    NoNameHaveI All government is tyranny Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    Got a link to the original source material would be interested in reading more about it and possibly his other projects.
     
  3. BigWaylon

    BigWaylon Head philatelist Staff Member Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    Here are some of the previous mock-up pics...

    E3086AA4-A3FB-4EAE-9D5F-0A297EE2AB57.jpeg 1C59D817-D99E-4E97-8163-140F376C60CA.jpeg 215DF7AD-390C-4B69-87EA-3042DBF239B8.jpeg 5A3725D6-31DE-4AA4-B892-4213732DAB72.jpeg 254FF7C2-785B-4447-909B-FE4F5A1EF55B.jpeg D75F5E90-71AC-472D-96A3-06265963F163.jpeg 5916F2AB-B98B-44BD-B1C2-2789A2ED0258.jpeg 131F2C24-DDA6-4362-8711-D2ED45EADCE5.jpeg
     
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  4. BigWaylon

    BigWaylon Head philatelist Staff Member Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    I don’t. He posts an update every once in awhile in the huge (487 pages) thread where they’re discussing the weird lowers.

    I’ll ask him if he’s doing a write-up on it somewhere else.
     
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  5. BigWaylon

    BigWaylon Head philatelist Staff Member Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    @NoNameHaveI

    I asked if he had a write-up anywhere, and here was the reply:

    I might when it's all done. Not sure. I did that after the space-force build and even tried to give away an optic (not a good one). The thread died and was sent to archives.

    I won't get specific on internals until I am sure of a few things first. One being the design works as intended. The other is making sure the design is protected. I'm waiting on a patent search return, before I can move forward with a submission. I worry posting outside of this thread may draw a high amount of questions in regard to technical data.
     
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  6. NoNameHaveI

    NoNameHaveI All government is tyranny Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    Fair enough, thread sounds interesting I will try to find it. :D
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2019
  7. JBoyette

    JBoyette Well-Known Member Vendor

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    Just because you can, does not equal you should.

    Lol
     
  8. BigWaylon

    BigWaylon Head philatelist Staff Member Benefactor Charter Life Member

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  9. spittinfire

    spittinfire Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    That is AWESOME!!!
     
  10. Combat Diver

    Combat Diver Well-Known Member

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    And that is why you are allowed to build your own guns. It allows for new inventions. Never vote to give up that right for you to make and build your own guns. You don't need ask and pay for a manufactures licenses from the government. On the lever gun, he did forget one item. He forgot to add the compass in the stock :)

    Update #4

    [​IMG]

    Thirty-plus coats of Tru-oil later and I finally finished up the rifle and got it assembled. Clear coat isn’t perfect, but at least now I can pinpoint any small spots and dial them in. I still sorta wish I had gone with a more extreme curly maple. What I used has some slight waves, nothing drastic. I guess the finish turned out well enough for the theme I was following. The images do not show the sheen very well, nor the deep color, the finished product is very uniform. Not sure why the images look so uneven, maybe the reflection (maybe my older phone). I’m glad I used Cerakote tp make sure all the metal parts match (even the bolt carrier), different shades of black may have taken away from the wood finish.

    The front site post is dovetailed at the top for the fiber optic rod carrier, and also at the base at the barrel clamp mount (not actually a clamp). I have a front post that is slightly over a 1/2 inch shorter to switch out if possible. This will depend on the range of the rear sight base, and at what distance I zero in the rifle. The short based would be preferred, as it will look better, but the design and measurements called for the taller site as installed. I will know more after test firing.

    Concerning testing, so far so good concerning cycling. I was a little worried in the beginning, as I was feeding Magpul dummy rounds for cycle tests. A little tough on occation. I noticed this may be more of an extractor issue with the polymer (everything is brand new). So I pulled the firing pin and ran 55gr Federal. Zero issue cycling brass. While the rifle looks best with a 10 round mag, anything will fit and function. Cycling is a little tight (again, it’s all new), but fast. Like, watch that trigger finger fast.

    One of the concerns I ran into early on was the LRBHO. It is not needed for this design. In fact, if the bolt catch caught on an empty mag, I wasn’t sure about jamming something up or accidentally busting a gear if I got overzealous during break-in. I didn’t want to get rid of it all together; it would create an odd void if left empty. An early “filler” concept looked really dumb. So, in the end I modded a standard bolt catch down to streamline it as narrow as possible, for a better overall look. I shaved off the mag catch section completely. Because I added a tension spring to the rear mechanism, the rifle always wants to return the carrier forward. Nothing drastic, only a slight forward pressure, but in the end the bolt catch ended up being necessary.

    Over the next week or so I plan to continue cycling rounds and working the action often, checking internals and signs of any possible wear before taking the rifle out to the range. Aside from the upper receiver dovetailed site rail, I have not used lock-tite to secure threads as of yet. Also, nothing has been altered from the standard milspec design concerning the bolt, extension, or barrel. The FCG and safety parts have not been altered either. So things should be GTG post Go, No-Go check. As a lefty with my faced near the ejection port, I like to play it safe. Plus I'm always paranoid I've forgotten something important (I Burt). So I never rush a build like this to the range. Once I make it there, and get the basic checks completed, I plan to run it and see what it can do!

    A big thanks to all of those that have offered advice and tips along the way!


    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    CD
     
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  11. B00ger

    B00ger Das B00G Charter Member Supporting Member

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    I’d like to see it function


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  12. BigWaylon

    BigWaylon Head philatelist Staff Member Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    Agreed.

    I just tagged him in the thread to see if we could get a video of a couple rounds being fired/cycled.
     
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  13. Slacker

    Slacker Liquor and Whores...

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    KELTEC will copy it soon enough.
    Perhaps Rooga will buy the patent so they can sell it when semi autos are put on the NFA list.
     
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  14. BatteryOaksBilly

    BatteryOaksBilly A SHOOTER Benefactor Life Member Supporting Member

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    Kinda like Yoga pants...…………….
     
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  15. JBoyette

    JBoyette Well-Known Member Vendor

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    Well, in sizes over 14....
     
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  16. GreatGazoo

    GreatGazoo Li'l Green Guy Supporting Member

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    What will they think of next?

    [​IMG]
     
  17. Hammer21b

    Hammer21b I'm you're Huckleberry

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    You beat me to it John!
     
  18. CZfool68

    CZfool68 Int'l Man of Mystery Charter Member Supporting Member

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    14? Damn. :eek:

    There’s a thread for that.
     
  19. spittinfire

    spittinfire Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    Whether you should or not is up for debate but you have to respect the craftsmanship that when into this. He didn’t just scab something together.


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  20. Combat Diver

    Combat Diver Well-Known Member

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    Red Ryd-AR Update #5

    Finally made it to the range. I kept the round count very low (25 rounds total). Specifically so I wouldn’t miss catching issues by taking a lot of ammo and getting ahead of myself. I’ve not had the time to cycle dummy rounds and go over possible “wear Issues” prior to this first trip as planned. I’ve lost nearly all of my Magpul dummy rounds under shop benches, to the cat, or in the yard! It doesn’t help that I am slightly colorblind, so combine that with the fact the “Brain-Ninjas” at Magpul cast dummy rounds in black, and every other ejected round finds a temporal black hole to evaporate into! I ran out of them, I don’t test cycle live rounds at the shop.

    The rifle shot high at 50 yards, so I moved the rear sight higher, allowing for a better cheek weld, and I can now install that lower front sight riser I made prior. I haven’t used any locktite as of yet for this build, thus the reason I keep checking the front sight assembly and fidgeting with parts (paranoia). Also, I am NOT an “operator” (or even slightly cool), I don’t normally shoot with Mechanix gloves. But, I didn’t wanna scratch up that wood stock I’ve got 80+ hours invested in. And if I had a housing or part burst free during test firing, maybe the work gloves would keep the rifle from taking every finger off, or maybe just prevent them from launching down range! I’m also a lefty, shooting an AR offhanded isn’t horrible for me. But THIS rifle is not a normal AR, that stupid leather strap drove me frickin nuts! The only real way I could get a somewhat clear video was to shoot offhanded (Propped the phone against a towel because I made the mistake of thinking someone at the range might offer to help).

    The video is spliced at a function test with no rounds, and then three rounds fired consecutively. These are early rounds, numbers 6, 7 and 8. I shot three individual single rounds first, then two rounds to begin a cycle testing, then this video of three rounds. Still very new. I have zero experience with phone recording, or editing (it shows), or making a youtube channel (which sucked), so please forgive the issues and short run. I will get something better done at some point down the road when I have help.



    The ammo (55Gr federal 5.56), cycled better than the polymer dummies. It wasn’t flawless (probably because I was babying the rifle), but no ejection issues other than from time to time there was a slight “catch” within the first 1/2" of travel. I could feel it early which caused me to pause, but, the round would eject no problem. First I thought it may be the hammer, but I found this to be an issue with original design of the square headed cam pin (note the wear for so few rounds). The entire BCG is PSA, nothing wrong with the parts, I’m just using them in a way that is not "as designed" (think piston driven AR). With no gas to push the bolt hard forward unlocking the cam pin by force, it wants to catch on the upper receiver guide rail occasionally. It was only a touch of resistance, but I didn’t like (noticeable in the video, ejecting the 3rd round).

    After shooting, I remedied this by clipping the front of the gas tube to install a POF roller cam (Using Perma-blue for the temp color fix while testing). I also swapped the factor PSA bolt for a NiB bolt, removed the gas rings, and added an Adams Arms bolt forward spring. When modifying the carrier earlier, I used Carakote to refinish it. Cerakote is very oil resistant, the oil I was using pooled in spots, and ran off in others (I use 30W Mobile 1 synthetic in my AR’s). Because this rifle does not use a gas system, I subbed the oil with high temp marine grease. I was surprised at the improvement, stupid slick, Cerakote holds it very well. All of this may be overkill as the cam pin may have worked itself out eventually, but it fixed my concern.
    [​IMG]
    When cycling brass I also notice that the BCG did not travel back quite as far as I wanted. I missed this during bench testing. The back of the BCG carrier key was striking the charging handle cover plate, as intended, but a modification was in order for more travel. Below shows the original cover, and the cover post machining off about a ¼”, It doesn’t sound like much, but it made a big difference in loading a new round. (Alumablack touched things up for now)
    [​IMG]
    Much smoother cycling action now than prior, and before wasn't bad at all. I will be playing with the return spring strength before heading back to the range. It is OK as-is, but cycling the action was a little tough for my off hand. This could be explained away by how backwards offhand lever action shooting felt for me, but I would like to get it dialed in a bit better if possible. For those that may ask, I did not attempt to group any shots on paper this time out. Didn't even set out a target. I Just found a lump of dried grass at 50 yards out, and made it work. I will note that while I like the novelty of a lever AR, followup shot timing was way off compared to how I shoot with a standard AR. Strong or weak handed, that me simply require more range time.

    Next range trip I will do a better job with video. Hopefully next round will be a little cooler, and not as dusty.



    CD
     
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  21. Armed4defense

    Armed4defense Southern, Country & Proud! Supporting Member

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    Cool! I remember how much I begged for a Red Ryder when I was 5.Mom thought I was too young. If Dad were still here,I'd ask him to put this on my Santa list -"now that I'm old enough" :)
     
  22. willpgn

    willpgn Well-Known Member

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    This guy has done some great work here! Practical or not, I’m impressed with what he’s done mimicking the Red Rider idea. The lever action is much shorter than I thought it would be.
     
  23. BigWaylon

    BigWaylon Head philatelist Staff Member Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    I’m just glad to know I’m not the only person that is intrigued/impressed with this. :D

    I know we have the “just because you can doesn’t mean you should” crowd, but the talent here is undeniable. Love to see somebody turn a dream into reality.
     
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  24. spittinfire

    spittinfire Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    That is really cool. The machine work is impressive for sure.

    Why is he wearing gloves though?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  25. BigWaylon

    BigWaylon Head philatelist Staff Member Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    Maybe you should read the post? :confused:

    Also, I am NOT an “operator” (or even slightly cool), I don’t normally shoot with Mechanix gloves. But, I didn't wanna scratch up that wood stock I’ve got 80+ hours invested in. And if I had a housing or part burst free during test firing, maybe the work gloves would keep the rifle from taking every finger off, or maybe just prevent them from launching down range!

    :p
     
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  26. willpgn

    willpgn Well-Known Member

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    The gloves were hoped to be the “batting cage fence for his fingers” so he wouldn’t have to travel very far to find them! Maybe he should have tried the Myth Busters “string and pull from a distance” if he had that much concern! o_O