LPVO options

Discussion in 'Optics Talk' started by Climberman, Sep 10, 2019.

?

Which LVPO

  1. Steiner

    12 vote(s)
    52.2%
  2. Trijicon

    6 vote(s)
    26.1%
  3. Vortex

    5 vote(s)
    21.7%
  1. Climberman

    Climberman Unstealthiest Ninja

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    I am beginning to consider LVPO options for an AR that currently wears a PA micro RDS. Which LPVO would you pick from the following options. Please give me your reasons also. My use is going to be 3gun/tactical competition mainly. I want clear glass and a reticle with holdovers for distance and daylight bright illumination. I think this is going to be zero'd for 50 yards and not messed with again so dialing turrets isn't an issue.


    1. Steiner P4xi 1-4x

    2. Trijicon Accupower 1-4x

    3. Vortex pst gen 2 1-6x
     
  2. Ikarus1

    Ikarus1 Avtomat Krishna-kov

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    none of those options at their price points. Burris RT6 all day long for your purpose.
     
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  3. NKD

    NKD Senior Member Benefactor Kimberless Supporting Member

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    All good choices. I have the Steiner and Vortex, you should try them both out.
     
  4. Climberman

    Climberman Unstealthiest Ninja

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    The MSRP on that one is noticeably lower than the ones I posted. How's the glass in it? I wish there was a good way to compare that quality.
     
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  5. Ikarus1

    Ikarus1 Avtomat Krishna-kov

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    Very good. I have 2 of them after shopping the other 1-6x. It's also shorter than most and the Ballistic CQ reticle is the tits
    Glass is the same as the MTAC IIRC
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2019
  6. JBoyette

    JBoyette Well-Known Member Vendor

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    Any LPVO is pointless with exposed turrets, get them capped.

    If you buy a 1-4x any brand. Do not buy it with a reticle that has a unit of measure. The FOV is too large in all the optic options.

    If you buy a 1-6x you are good to go, no issues like the 1-4x systems

    With all that, the 1-4x fov being too wide and kill a unit of measure reticle, I run a Trijicon 1-4x Accupoint in the green triangle. The tip is zeroed at 200yds, the body of the triangle is CQB 0-50 and a rough 300yd suppressive fire. with this optic, I have been known to dial dope past the zero to 600yds a few times last week.
     
  7. patina

    patina Active Member

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    Steiner will have the best glass clarity and brightest dot of the three.
     
  8. Climberman

    Climberman Unstealthiest Ninja

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    Thanks John. Can you explain a bit more on the issues with 1-4x systems and why the 1-6x doesn’t have them?
     
  9. Climberman

    Climberman Unstealthiest Ninja

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    Anybody else? Leaning Steiner currently.

    I don't get why a 1-4x with a reticle with a unit of measure is a bad idea. Does that apply to a ballistic drop reticle the same as if it was in mils? I guess it kind of makes sense that with a wide FOV, the tick marks on a mil scope would be really close together? But it seems like a 1-6x would have the same issues if it was set on 1x.

    [​IMG] vs [​IMG]
     
  10. NKD

    NKD Senior Member Benefactor Kimberless Supporting Member

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    Basic BDC is what you want, imo.
     
  11. Chuckman

    Chuckman Senior Member Sponsor

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    Steiner every day of the week and twice on Sunday, followed by the Burris.
     
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  12. th0m

    th0m 10MM is best MM

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    Steiner, hands down.

    excellent glass and day light bright dot good for 1x both eyes open. 4x is more than enough to get you out to typical 3gun distances. you will absolutely want a bdc type reticle for 3gun. steiner reticle + a good ballistic app like strelok and you're set with whatever load you want to run.

    bonus, one of the steiner 1-4x SKUs (search for it, dont recall which one) ships with a throw lever.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
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  13. patina

    patina Active Member

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    I don't understand your reasoning here. The only time you are going to use the unit of measure in the reticle is at full power (4x). You're not using 200/300/400yd subtensions at 1-3x.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
  14. JBoyette

    JBoyette Well-Known Member Vendor

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    NP,

    Riflescopes "all optics in this matter" reticles are presented to the shooter in relative terms. The relative is the FOV as demonstrated with first focal plane optics. With any UOM Reticle the subtend must span the distance as designed, if a first focal plane, no issue, second focal plane, typically in the highest magnification setting "4x". With that, at 4x the FOV is much wider than a 6x optic, but 4x more restricted then a RDS system. This leaves alot to be desired and also why the market is going away from UOM-Reticles in 4x. BDC reticles are more useful in this power range, this is also why I find it hard with any optic prices above $700 to not just buy a 3.5x ACOG and be done with it for life...

    To drive my point home, if you have access to a first focal plane optic that adjusts down to 4x, go use it past 400yds for holds and ranging. Then adjust the optic to 6x and see the diffrence for your self. Just looking through it is not the same as holding, ranging and using it.

    Two of the three optics you point out are BDC with 9", 18" range-finding ability, not a UOM-Reticle. So any of them are fine in this reguard. If it was up to me, I would run the Trijicon because I own one and have used it for the past 8 years. Vortex has a great warranty and the warranty gets used alot... Steiner never used it.

    John
     
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  15. NKD

    NKD Senior Member Benefactor Kimberless Supporting Member

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    Acog are a very poor choice for multigun or competition, imo.

    Actually couldn’t pick a worse optic for it.
     
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  16. patina

    patina Active Member

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    To simplify, your observations are that 4x has a wider FOV than 6x and less FOV than a RDS? And that 6x is stronger magnification than 4x?

    Most LPVO are SFP for a reason and that reason is cost. It is very expensive to produce a FFP reticle that works at 1x and this is the challenge for most FFP LPVO (dial your 6x/4x FFP down to 1x and see what I mean). WITHIN the SFP options most consumers purchase based on glass quality/clarity, eye relief, field of view and reticle (most importantly brightness of reticle). The whole point of an LPVO is to have a large eye box for dynamic speed at 1x like a rds with the ability to engage targets beyond 200yds with the throw of a lever.

    How many consumers are actually using 2-3x or 2-5x? I would assume very few. Are intermediate magnification settings used in combat for fast acquisition snap shots inside 200yds? Probably more likely. Are sub $1k budget SFP optics used in combat? No.

    I think it would be much more productive if everyone tried to keep these discussions within the scope of the original question instead of using them as an opportunity to spout counterproductive information and further muddy the waters.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019
  17. 88Mustang

    88Mustang Every day above ground... Charter Member Benefactor Supporting Member

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    I have steiner and accupoint 1-4x24 side by side and each looks exactly the same.at 1x and 4x, The trijicon 1-6x24 I got from a forum member looks better than both of the 1-4s.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019
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  18. Climberman

    Climberman Unstealthiest Ninja

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    I don’t think I have the cash for the Trijicon 1-6 unfortunately.
     
  19. 88Mustang

    88Mustang Every day above ground... Charter Member Benefactor Supporting Member

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    I only got it because it was a very good deal, not likely to get another. lockedandloaded.com had the Steiner for 479. otd IIRC.
     
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  20. Climberman

    Climberman Unstealthiest Ninja

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    got a link? That web address doesn't exist anymore.
     
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  21. 88Mustang

    88Mustang Every day above ground... Charter Member Benefactor Supporting Member

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    lockedloaded.com I paid, 494.01 OTD
    *Edit* add it to cart, then you have to provide first/last name and email and they will send you a quote with coupon code
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2019
  22. NKD

    NKD Senior Member Benefactor Kimberless Supporting Member

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    Try and get the throw lever model if you can.
     
  23. 88Mustang

    88Mustang Every day above ground... Charter Member Benefactor Supporting Member

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    They have the throw lever SKU
     
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  24. Crazy Carl

    Crazy Carl seriously? Life Member

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    Got my P4Xi with the throw lever from DSG Arms for $539 OTD, though that's with their LE/Mil discount.
     
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  25. chrishf12

    chrishf12 Carolina Wanderer

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    Last edited: Sep 27, 2019
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  26. Ikarus1

    Ikarus1 Avtomat Krishna-kov

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  27. Crazy Carl

    Crazy Carl seriously? Life Member

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    Not I. I was kinda set on their RT-6 & woulda gone that route if I'd had to pay for it 'out of hide', vs. sweet talking the missus into getting the P4Xi as my Christmas gift for this year.

    I've never paid over $250 for glass in my life, so the jump to a Steiner was a big leap of faith. After just a quickie look through & playing with magnification & reticle brightness, I can tell I'll be spending more money on glass going forward.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2019
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  28. Ikarus1

    Ikarus1 Avtomat Krishna-kov

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    Yep if you're like me you only have one pair of aging eyes and they're not getting any better. I love that Steiner glass btw
     
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  29. chrishf12

    chrishf12 Carolina Wanderer

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    How does the xtr series glass compare to the steiner’s? I figured it would be close at the $1400 price point.
     
  30. NKD

    NKD Senior Member Benefactor Kimberless Supporting Member

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    That’s a sweet deal. I’d like to try one. I like that reticle.

    I generally like Burris, but just don’t prefer some of their reticles for what I do specifically.
    But I have owned quite a few of their products and have to say I have never been disappointed in any of them.
     
  31. Climberman

    Climberman Unstealthiest Ninja

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    That's a sweet optic. I am thinking lighter is better though
     
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  32. Climberman

    Climberman Unstealthiest Ninja

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  33. Variable

    Variable Active Member Life Member

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    This thread is good. My Larue finally came in and i am trying to decide what optic to put on it. Great minds think a like and i was looking at the ones mentioned here.
    I lean more towards the Trijicon or the Stiener. I think Vortex products are mostly crap in that they break if you use them hard. I have had several fail on me. One would hope the trijicon is durable. Steiner may have an edge on clarity. What i want to know is between the Trijicon and Steiner are they equally durable? The Burris is a wild card. I just cant find it to trust it, i am old enough to remember Burris always being a low cost option. Like a KMart scope. I hear that is changing.
     
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  34. Climberman

    Climberman Unstealthiest Ninja

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    Durability is hard to answer. I have read reviews of the steiner, trijicon etc. and all seemed OK on durability but what level of durability are you trying to achieve? Do you expect it to be on a rifle that is thrown on the ground in a gravel pit on a regular basis ala aimpoint or acog? Or do you just want it to survive the one time you drop it in the mud? For my purposes, I've never abused an optic hard enough to break it.

    Sorry I can't answer your question but I think that all of the scopes mentioned here are reasonably durable for civilian life.
     
  35. Variable

    Variable Active Member Life Member

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    I go to a lot of training classes. I would say i beat stuff up. It get laid in the back of trucks and junk piled on it, dropped accidentally, banged around when my big ass hits the dirt, gun will be smacked against a barrier. It's going to be rained on. This is normal abuse. I'm not purposely hurting it, its just what happens when you use stuff. I don't sit at a range with it. I have a Holosun elite 510C in green that i have had about 6 months and it has survived all the above. Its dinged up, but it works.
     
  36. NKD

    NKD Senior Member Benefactor Kimberless Supporting Member

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    A 200$ vortex is like any other 200$ scope: chinese crap for the most part. But a 1500$+ isn't. And, if you use it hard, and it breaks, that Vortex warranty is unbeatable.

    The Vortex Razor is certainly not crap. Well used overseas by top people. Proven in military and hard competition use. It's a tank as far as I can tell. And lovely to shoot through. I think that's your best bet, considering all factors. Very hard to beat.

    Just my opinion.

    Edit: I would trust it well beyond my Steiner PX4i for durability and reliability. And, the glass is a bit better, which is saying something. To get A Steiner with that kind of toughness, you have to well beyond the price of the PX4i. But there are certainly awesome Steiners for that.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2019
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  37. Variable

    Variable Active Member Life Member

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    3k for a scope? That's gubment money. I find that hard to justify. I know they got a contract. I am sure the scope is solid.

    Can a descent LPVO that can take some abuse be had for less than 1K? Is such a thing...a thing? I think the Trijicon may be calling my name.
     
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  38. JimP42

    JimP42 Mostly harmless Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    I got lucky and found a Trijicon 1-8x28 for 980 new delivered back around the start of the year. I see them under 1100 pretty regularly. Great LPVO.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2019
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  39. NKD

    NKD Senior Member Benefactor Kimberless Supporting Member

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    Naw, more like 1400$, but seen them quite a bit lower. And, lightly used for under a G.

    https://www.opticsplanet.com/vortex-razor-gen-ii-hd-e-1-6x24-riflescope.html

    Sell a crappy gun you don't use! Or some of your wifes shoes.

    Edit: Some nice Trijis for sure, too.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2019
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  40. Apex Defense Group

    Apex Defense Group Active Member Sponsor

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    I am actually going to say RT6 as well. I own, or have owned every optic you listed above and would take the RT6 over any of those. My RT6 can see bullet impacts on steel at 500 yards which is pretty remarkable for the 6x. It beats out my $1500 2.5-10x Leupold in clarity at distance.
     
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