M&P 2.0 Exploded in My Hands!

@Slappy McTrigger spent some time with a SDP doing everything we could to create a double charge. Were no able to do it.

Unless you take a case out and run it back through as JimB mentions. That is easy to do.
 
NKD said:
@Slappy McTrigger spent some time with a SDP doing everything we could to create a double charge. Were no able to do it.

Unless you take a case out and run it back through as JimB mentions. That is easy to do.
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Funny you say that, I was mentally trying to figure out how I could get a double and didn’t think it was possible without removing the case but hasn’t actually tested to see if that was the case.

@dave33 if I do get distracted while reloading, I visually double check everything before restarting as I once almost tried to seat a primer on an already primer case. The thought of what would’ve happened made me visually confirm even if my wife pops in the garage or a check a text.
 
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In case you don't get the answer you're hoping for from S&W, Jerek still has one in stock (with thumb safety) @$369 plus tax less the $50 rebate.
 
dave33 said:
If I remember correctly a 9mm case will hold 3 throws of 3.4gr titegroup without overfilling the case, but it would be very obviously full.
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Yep, you can fit 3 easily. This is why I ended up getting a lockout die for my press.

Also, I agree with others, weighing won't help since brass weight, primer weight, and bullet weight will all vary and screw up detection of double charges.
 
Jerzsubbie said:
I once almost tried to seat a primer on an already primer case. The thought of what would’ve happened...
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I've done that a few times when the old primer didn't fall out. The new primer was squished flat but nothing loud or surprising happened.
 
Bailey Boat said:
Maybe invest in a powder cop if you feel it could have been double charged.....
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That’s one of the limits of the Dillon Square Deal, custom dies, so no powder cop.

I wondered about a squib too, but it was the first round from a new mag and the barrel doesn’t appear to be bulged.

What was the headstamp? One of them foreign brands with the extra ring of brass inside the case? Maybe MAXX?

If I have to stop for something other than a press stoppage I leave the press handle down. With the ram all the way up you know exactly what has been done without having to look at everything. Maybe try that.

Oh, and don’t forget this event should you ever need an MRI, you will likely regret the oversight.
 
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Glad u r ok. I would think a gun from a reputable mfr like smith would take a double charge. It looks like the brass let go B4 the gun let go. Another reason to wear protective eye wear with polycarbonate lenses with an ANSI rating of Z87.1-2010 at a minimum. Trivex is even better.
 
jimmyjames8 said:
Glad u r ok. I would think a gun from a reputable mfr like smith would take a double charge. It looks like the brass let go B4 the gun let go. Another reason to wear protective eye wear with polycarbonate lenses with an ANSI rating of Z87.1-2010 at a minimum. Trivex is even better.
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I agree with your premise, but in our never ending quest for the cheapest guns possible eventually manufacturer's will be at the extreme at what is achievable with current technology. There has to be trade offs when you do everything to make guns cheaper. Obviously the lawyers and insurance people will try to force companies to make safer guns while sales and engineering are getting pressured the other way. Wasn't it Chevy that basically let bad break issues slide through engineering to save $$. It was not a huge story since they were bailed out and a heavily union company, but it is the same thing.

On top of that if it was a double charge that is an ammo issue not a gun issues. So why would a manufacturer plan for that in a cheap gun when they'll have zero liability?
 
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Mike Overlay said:
Yeah, Im thinking a double charge also.
Alot of the handguns nowadays can handle +p+ loads. They can even take 9mm major load a few times without coming apart.

Curious as to what Smith says about this..
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Just a thought on the 9mm major comment, 9mm major uses really slow pistol powder, so the pressure curve is MUCH slower.
Trying to load 9mm major with fast powder like titegroup would be a disaster.
 
I don't think Winchester does it but I have seen 9mm brass that has a fake inner wall to make the case volume smaller thereby using less powder. If a normal load goes into one of those then the pressures would be significantly higher. You can identify these shells by what looks like a ledge on the inside
 
Curmudgeon said:
I don't think Winchester does it but I have seen 9mm brass that has a fake inner wall to make the case volume smaller thereby using less powder. If a normal load goes into one of those then the pressures would be significantly higher. You can identify these shells by what looks like a ledge on the inside
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I thought the ridge was designed to prevent bullet setback.
 
CZfool68 said:
I agree with your premise, but in our never ending quest for the cheapest guns possible eventually manufacturer's will be at the extreme at what is achievable with current technology. There has to be trade offs when you do everything to make guns cheaper. Obviously the lawyers and insurance people will try to force companies to make safer guns while sales and engineering are getting pressured the other way. Wasn't it Chevy that basically let bad break issues slide through engineering to save $$. It was not a huge story since they were bailed out and a heavily union company, but it is the same thing.

On top of that if it was a double charge that is an ammo issue not a gun issues. So why would a manufacturer plan for that in a cheap gun when they'll have zero liability?
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They design bbls to withstand proof loads. I think that typically is a double or worse charge. Why I dont know. One of my shooting buds proof tested by accident a Remy 700 in 7mm08. Locked the gun up bank vault tight. Peppered his face with micro meteorites. Gunsmith got the gun apart but advised against ever shooting it again. My friend never really figured out what he did wrong but he and we all suspect the wrong kinda powder.
 
dave33 said:
No where close to filling it. If I remember correctly a 9mm case will hold 3 throws of 3.4gr titegroup without overfilling the case, but it would be very obviously full. Regardless, if you are watching every case a double charge of even titegroup should be pretty obvious. However, a sooty case, maybe not great lighting, it could be missed. Another reason I like wet tumbling, gets the inside of the cases cleaner making powder easier to see.

The updated Dillon powder measure uses a failsafe rod that doesn't reset the powder measure unless the shell plate goes to the bottom, which would rotate the plate, so a double charge should be hard to do. @Jerzsubbie, do you recall any weird distractions during that reload session that could have made it possible to double charge a case?
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I looked titegroup is a very fine powder. It might could hold a triple charge.
 
Jerzsubbie said:
I’m definitely keeping an open mind as to the cause and am curious to determine it. I’m human, and have no issues owning up to my mistakes/failures/short-comings. I wanted to share this experience just because it’s a shocking one and reminds us all to be very careful.

I could have thrown a double, I could’ve missed a crappy piece of brass, who knows. Of course I try to visually check almost every powder charge but that will now be 100%, and I throw out any cases that don’t look or feel right as I clean and sort them.

The fact that the explosion wasn’t worse makes me think it wasn’t a double charge. The pictures I’ve seen of double charges have been much, much worse. Out of battery or bullet setback were the first things to cross my mind.
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While it *could* happen, I am not sure I buy an "out of battery" situation. I would be more inclined to believe fatigued brass (as in a piece of weak brass that has been loaded to 9mm Major for an open gun), a double charge or bullet set-back.

I rarely pick up 9mm brass, especially at ranges where I know open shooters are shooting or have been.

Make certain you are correctly resizing your 9mm brass in the reloading process and if you have any issues on a progressive press, clear the shell plate and start over.

I am glad for you that it wasn't worse than what it was!
 
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I'll relate a recent near-disaster on my bench:

In my previous session I was loading pistol cartridges with W231 from a RCBS Uniflow on a stand. I almost ran it dry and I remember weighing the last few charges and being pleased that it did not drift as the hopper went low.

Now I'm sitting down to load some 308 with Varget. I fill the hopper and go about setting the powder measure to a new weight. A couple throws in something doesn't look right. That powder isn't sticks... it's little fines... holy crap that's not Varget! Turns out I never emptied the hopper when I finished last time.
 
BowWow said:
I looked titegroup is a very fine powder. It might could hold a triple charge.
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It’s not that fine like some ball powders, but it is very potent, so yes a 9mm case can hold a triple.
Never really thought about the danger factor of that. I only thought “less powder means more loads per pound”.
 
Glad you’re alright!This happened to my dad, in the middle of a relay, he didn’t realise there was a squib until the foresight moved to the left all of a sudden.
They were reloads using a progressive press.
Top carbine in the picture. It now has a marlin barrel.
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So I decided to weigh the loaded rounds from that batch of about 200. I separated the ammo by brass type, weighed 40 of the 147gr Berry’s bullets, weighed 20 empty cases of each brass type, weighed primers, and found surprisingly small deviations in weights giving me confidence in the effectiveness of weighing each round. Upon very careful inspection, I did find multiple types of Federal “FC” brass, and they varied up to 6gr between each type.

For the odd ball brass types like star line, CBC, GFI, etc I just broke them all down. For rounds that were more than 1gr over the average, or even close actually, I threw them in the “BAD” pile. I broke down a total of 38 rounds, many of which were the odd ball brass stamps.

I loaded 200rd last night and before hand tried to see if I could get a double charge. The only way I could do it was to remove a charged case, so this made me feel good.

I also made a change in how I store my rounds. Rather than storing them in bulk all together, I got some 4mil 6x6 plastic bags that hold 200rd perfectly. I’ll date them and store them that way.

FYI still waiting on Smith to send me the shipping label. They said 3-5 days to generate the label. I guess it’s a manual process.
 
Update: Had to go to the Dr!

So it turns out I had a handful of tiny pieces of the black plastic frame stuck on my right thumb. Most are barely under the skin, I can see them but they’re so tiny I can’t pick them out. However, I had one piece, under my thumb nail. It got infected, was pussing, and was quite painful if I touched or even grazed it.

I tried cutting my nail back a little bit since it was towards the side, but digging it out was way too painful. My Dr didn’t have good enough numbing meds so she sent me to a surgical specialist. They were able to get it out in about 15min without removing my nail or cutting my thumb since it was so close to the edge. It was 1-2mm and verrry jagged/sharp, hence the pain.

I believe this is the piece that went in the bottom of my thumb, caused the majorly of the bleeding, and went all the way through to my nail. I was totally fine a couple hours later after the numbing wore off, no pain and it’s healing super fast.

S&W received my gun but it’ll be weeks before I hear anything back.
 
Jerzsubbie said:
Update: Had to go to the Dr!

So it turns out I had a handful of tiny pieces of the black plastic frame stuck on my right thumb. Most are barely under the skin, I can see them but they’re so tiny I can’t pick them out. However, I had one piece, under my thumb nail. It got infected, was pussing, and was quite painful if I touched or even grazed it.

I tried cutting my nail back a little bit since it was towards the side, but digging it out was way too painful. My Dr didn’t have good enough numbing meds so she sent me to a surgical specialist. They were able to get it out in about 15min without removing my nail or cutting my thumb since it was so close to the edge. It was 1-2mm and verrry jagged/sharp, hence the pain.

I believe this is the piece that went in the bottom of my thumb, caused the majorly of the bleeding, and went all the way through to my nail. I was totally fine a couple hours later after the numbing wore off, no pain and it’s healing super fast.

S&W received my gun but it’ll be weeks before I hear anything back.
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Guess this could be another reason the tactical ninjas wear those cool gloves!

You still have 10 fingers so that is good.
 
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IIRC Titegroup is very intolerant of bullet set back, as in not very much replicates the kind of pressure of a double charge. Seems like I've seen some Quickload scenarios indicating as much in a few of the many ka-boom tales involving the powder.
147s are usually seated very near the beginning of the internal taper so if they move much chambering issues often occur.
It appears to me there may be a ring of expansion just ahead of the extractor groove, hard to tell for certain with no side views.

My theory, bullet set back causing the case to swell and the round to stop just shy of fully chambered but far enough for striker to work, way high pressure and slightly less support in the ramp area combine for an exciting afternoon.

Of course figuring out the root cause of an isolated case of set back is just as much a guessing game as postmortem diagnosis of a blown up gun. Bad brass, sizing die, missed step, undersize projectile, too much crimp, bad feed angles, etc.
 
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It looks like a double charge to me. I did the same thing many years ago when I first started reloading. The gun was a 3rd gen S&W auto. It launched the magazine and all of its guts and remaining rounds into the ground turned my hand into a bloody mess. 5 stitches repaired my hand. Man I still remember how painful the experience was. The gun was fine except for the mangled plastic grip. I bought a collet style bullet puller and dis-assembled every round I hand loaded. Sure enough, there were a few more double loads and a couple squibs. I don't know how It happened because I have always been very careful. Ever since then I triple check every round before seating a bullet with my single stage. My progressive has an RCBS powder lockout die that stops the press if there is no powder or too much powder.
 
Way back when, we all used to load Bullseye powder in 45 ACP loads. I saw something very similar happen. It was real easy to double or triple charge with that powder. The accident
I witnessed was caused by an UNDERCHARGE. With Bullseye powder, this causes a detonation instead of a controlled burn. This may happen with some of the newer fast burning
powders.
 
That's why I use my Lee turret set up as a "quick-change" single stage & inspect every round after each step.
 
I'm glad you still have all your fingers and eyes!

Slacker said:
I thought the ridge was designed to prevent bullet setback.
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There are several headstamps with the internal step. The "AMMOLOAD" headstamp, I know for a fact it will not prevent bullet setback. The step is too far down in the case. Just to experiment, I took the min charge of Titegroup for a 147gn bullet, dropped it into the case, and the powder was above the step.

The newer "MAXXTECH" headstamps could prevent setback, as the step is much closer to the case mouth.

I've always heard that Titegroup has a very steep pressure curve. For most powders, the higher the pressure, the faster it burns, and apparently more so with TG than others. A 147gn bullet will not leave much volume under the bullet, so any setback would, percentage wise, decrease the case volume very quickly.
 
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Well S&W got back to me pretty quickly. First they said it would be warrantied but 2min later followed up saying that email was a mistake and that the damage is not covered under warranty.
They offered me a new gun at just barely below the best price I can find currently, though I have a question in to them as whether it will still qualify for the rebate. Otherwise I can do better with the rebate.

Regardless, looks like I’ll have some spare parts and a slide to sell in the near future.
 
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