Maybe my wife is right. Maybe I am too intense about this stuff sometimes.......

[tanstaafl72555]

But then again, maybe someone in here is just as fouled up as I am, and you might feel like you are at the bottom of the well with nothing but smooth walls around you and no way out. I get there from time to time, trying to figure out "evil" in the universe and a good God (yes, I have read Augustine and CS Lewis "the problem of pain"... they were helpful, but in the end..........). Here is a sort of meditation I put together as I am climbing out of a period of real blackness and despair. I know it is related to the shock my body has experienced, but the feels are the most intense stuff I have ever experienced.

Like I said, if the shoe does not fit, just move on and mark me as weird.....

11 My son, do not despise the Lord's discipline or be weary of his reproof,
12 for the Lord reproves him whom he loves, as a father the son in whom he delights.

Sin and unbelief says "God is mean. He is arbitrary. He does not care. He is cruel. He has abandoned you." ....... and I listen and nod. I cannot logically abandon the idea of God himself. Too much evidence and too much logical nonsense necessary to go there (if you are not convinced of that and want to hear, pm me). Instead, I lapse into horrible distorted grotesque images of a "god" who plays with his creation like a cruel cat with a wounded mouse. When the love of God in Christ breaks thru that stuff, it is pure happiness. It makes the black despair somehow worth it, because I see the love in a new way. It is a foreview into something that has plagued my thoughts since I figured out how to think them.... that God is a cosmic monster who turns evil loose on a world He made because He is "above it all" and is in fact more wicked than the devil himself, and I am stuck because I am little and cannot have the power to judge, although my logic screams that I am in the right and He is wrong. I still don't understand all this, and when I trust in my own understanding, I wind up there, screaming obscenities at God who is neither moved nor pays attention (this is what hell will be, I am convinced). It is only the gospel that gives me a foretaste of the vision I will have in the next life of "ooooohhhhhhhh! Now I see it! You are not only good, but good beyond my ability to fathom!" I still don't understand it all logically. The problem of evil is the most poignant when I feel alone and abandoned, and all my plans are just cavalierly smashed and I feel humiliated (just went thru a period like that).

The gospel is beautiful this a.m., because it lets me see that God's correction is not hateful and mean, but is the action of a loving father who DELIGHTS in me (so it says in the text) and I am happy and grateful.

Thanks for putting up with the rant.

 

[JBoyette]

Here is my view of what you just wrote.

You as a person are not important enough for god to care about. He is not "playing with you" he does not know you exist.

Your ego and self-worth make you think you are being played with "and that in itself is the joke" because God created that within you.

Now, to have a personal relationship with Jesus, that's different.

John

 

[Inglis]

In God is only love.

 

[tanstaafl72555]

Here is my view of what you just wrote.

You as a person are not important enough for god to care about. Her is not "playing with you" he does not know you exist.

Your ego and self worth makes you think you are being played with "and that in itself is the joke" because god created that within you.

Now, to have a personal relationship with Jesus, that's different.

John

Thanks for the response, but I am very confused by it.

 

[JBoyette]

Thanks for the response, but I am very confused by it.

Thats how these "things" are. LOL

Check this out and tell me if this is correct about your post:

Summary: The author wrestles with feelings of sin and unbelief, acknowledging the existence of God despite doubts and criticism. They describe their struggle with distorted images of a cruel and indifferent God, viewing Him as a cosmic monster who inflicts suffering on His creation. These thoughts lead to despair and anger, but the author finds solace in the love of God revealed through Jesus Christ. This love brings a sense of happiness and transforms their understanding, even though they still struggle to comprehend it fully. The problem of evil becomes more significant when they feel alone and abandoned, especially during times when their plans are shattered and they experience humiliation. The author sees the gospel as a glimpse into a future revelation where they will understand the incomprehensible goodness of God beyond their current understanding.

Review: The passage reflects the author's deeply personal and introspective struggle with faith, sin, and the problem of evil. It explores the tension between the author's belief in God and their perception of a cruel and unloving deity. The language used is raw and intense, capturing the emotional turmoil experienced by the author. The author finds comfort and hope in the love of God revealed through Jesus Christ, recognizing it as a transformative force that allows them to glimpse a future understanding of God's goodness. The writing effectively conveys the author's sense of confusion, doubt, and eventual resolution, making it a thought-provoking piece on faith and the human experience.

What do you think?

 

[tanstaafl72555]

Thats how these "things" are. LOL

Check this out and tell me if this is correct about your post:

Summary: The author wrestles with feelings of sin and unbelief, acknowledging the existence of God despite doubts and criticism. They describe their struggle with distorted images of a cruel and indifferent God, viewing Him as a cosmic monster who inflicts suffering on His creation. These thoughts lead to despair and anger, but the author finds solace in the love of God revealed through Jesus Christ. This love brings a sense of happiness and transforms their understanding, even though they still struggle to comprehend it fully. The problem of evil becomes more significant when they feel alone and abandoned, especially during times when their plans are shattered and they experience humiliation. The author sees the gospel as a glimpse into a future revelation where they will understand the incomprehensible goodness of God beyond their current understanding.

Review: The passage reflects the author's deeply personal and introspective struggle with faith, sin, and the problem of evil. It explores the tension between the author's belief in God and their perception of a cruel and unloving deity. The language used is raw and intense, capturing the emotional turmoil experienced by the author. The author finds comfort and hope in the love of God revealed through Jesus Christ, recognizing it as a transformative force that allows them to glimpse a future understanding of God's goodness. The writing effectively conveys the author's sense of confusion, doubt, and eventual resolution, making it a thought-provoking piece on faith and the human experience.

What do you think?

HAL missed the point entirely! ... but he is HAL after all, and has no soul

My point, inarticulately made, was that the existence of evil, and the consequent trauma of events in my life make me doubt the character of God as truly good. The logic goes "God made everything. Evil exists. Therefore God is the author of evil. Logically, this is inescapable. Therefore, God is a monster, and the pain in life is attributable directly to Him. However, I am stuck because He is big and I am little and I cannot summon Him into court to condemn Him. In the end, I am left with screaming in rage at him, if the cosmology of the bible is true. That is where I wind up logically, with lots of fireworks and useless anger.

If, otoh, there is what CS Lewis called "a deeper magic" which transcends my own logical abilities to frame a syllogism, and in fact that "way of seeing" finds some expression in the cross of Christ and God drinking into himself the poison of evil and taking His own punishment into Himself, then I can no longer act like He is a distant, disinterested cosmic ogre. Or someone either unaware or uninterested in me. He has a burning passion of love for me (so says the cross) which will cause a panorama of truth to unfold FROM that cross and reveal His infinite wisdom in a way that -frankly- I cannot grasp at present, but I can believe it BECAUSE "MY GOD MY GOD WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME" lets me know that He is not disinterested nor uninvolved with the sufferings of creation due to evil.

It is from that vantage point that I can feel the pressure of looking over 68 years I have largely pissed away and the spectacular failures and stupid ego driven nonsense and not fall into despair, or hate God for being (logically) the driving cause of of ego, silliness and evil in my heart.

I hope that is a better explanation. At any rate, thank you very much for the response, and your kindness to me in the past.

 

[MacEntyre]

"Act justly, love mercy and walk humbly with your God." Micah 6:8

Accept the faith that God has given you, receive His love and salvation, and have joy now. You will have eternity to figure it all out.

 

[xtp308]

I think we have too cloudy a view of Him, but that's because we're still encased in the dead flesh.
He does give correction, because He loves you. But, I think a lot of the things that we view as coming from Him, aren't.
I think a lot of this comes from misunderstandings of Job and others from dogma without scripture to back them up. He doesn't "take anybody Home", kill kids with cancer, cause car crashes, 'the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away, blessed be the name of the Lord". Most of that is either out of context or just plain unscripturally wrong. He gets a lot of blame for a lot of things He didn't do.
Let's see; what's Scriptural concerning what He does ? I'll just use two and leave out the citation to encourage folks to do their own research. 1) "Every good and perfect thing comes from above" and 2) " He never places more than you can stand". So, these are our litmus.
Is cancer "good and perfect" ? Can we "stand it" ? No. Therefore, not from Him.
A fatal car crash killing young parents and leaving kids orphans ? Using our litmus, no and no. Not from Him.
The "Dostoyesvsky " test; dogs ripping kids apart ? No and no. Not from Him.

There's multiple other litmus versus we could use from scripture to test events in our lives as to whether they are from Him or of Him. But, that's for your own research.
I've felt the same as you and asked the same questions and seen the failure of human logic to explain Him.

Now, we aren't told why He allows these things to happen and I don't have those answers. Most human problems aren't from God, but we like to falsely blame Him. If you're listening, He'll tell you when He's correcting you, and you'll see His hand afterward, but it's a gentle correction for your education.

In closing, I can say He does promise to "be with us, even unto the ends of the world" and " be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world" and "greater is He than he who is in the world", and "all of My promises are yea and amen".

 

[tanstaafl72555]

In closing, I can say He does promise to "be with us, even unto the ends of the world" and " be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world" and "greater is He than he who is in the world", and "all of My promises are yea and amen".

Just reminded me of a joke I heard long ago.

There was an older woman who was deathly afraid of flying. Would NOT get on a plane, even though she desperately wanted to visit her grandchildren.

Her pastor, in an attempt to encourage and strengthen her said "now Mabel, you know God says "I am with you even to the end of the world"

She said "preacher! that is NOT what it says!!!"

Confused look....

It says right here "LO(W) I am with you.... I ain't getting on no plane that don't fly LOW"

Anyway.

 

[Tailhunter]

James 1:17

“Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning”

Matthew 7:9-11

9 “Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?”



I think the torment you find in your mind is the opposition team playing head games.

It ain’t all that difficult and me thinks maybe your wife is on to something. 😉

 

[tanstaafl72555]

I think the torment you find in your mind is the opposition team playing head games.

It ain’t all that difficult and me thinks maybe your wife is on to something. 😉

This is certainly true. I would not wish that sinking feeling of black despair on anyone, and I certainly do not believe that my reasoning powers are the final touchstone for truth in the universe. I am saying that sometimes they look true, and after a brief affirmation that God really does not love me (using my reasoning per: above), I can return to the main task at hand which is self hatred, regret, recriminations, anger, and self pity.

Some of you in here don't go there. My mom never did, really. Her faith was more simple and solid and she would tell me "you wear yourself out and cause yourself unnecessary trouble getting fixated on this stuff. Just believe in the love of God."

I am not denying the truth of that. Folks like that - and my best and dearest Christian friend from HS is one - accepts these forays into the slough of despond as something that just come to some people, although he does not understand them. His counsel (which is true and from love) is at the core, simple. "Just believe."

The post was not to upset anyone. It was for those who might say "I maybe would like to investigate this stuff, but it sounds to me just like psychological wish fulfillment" or those who do believe and are like me, unsteady of foot at times. It is probably more of a personality trait than anything. I find it is more powerful when I am physically compromised and beaten down, but anything can trigger it.

If you just don't ever go there, be thankful. It is a great blessing.

 

[Tailhunter]

This is certainly true. I would not wish that sinking feeling of black despair on anyone, and I certainly do not believe that my reasoning powers are the final touchstone for truth in the universe. I am saying that sometimes they look true, and after a brief affirmation that God really does not love me (using my reasoning per: above), I can return to the main task at hand which is self hatred, regret, recriminations, anger, and self pity.

Some of you in here don't go there. My mom never did, really. Her faith was more simple and solid and she would tell me "you wear yourself out and cause yourself unnecessary trouble getting fixated on this stuff. Just believe in the love of God."

I am not denying the truth of that. Folks like that - and my best and dearest Christian friend from HS is one - accepts these forays into the slough of despond as something that just come to some people, although he does not understand them. His counsel (which is true and from love) is at the core, simple. "Just believe."

The post was not to upset anyone. It was for those who might say "I maybe would like to investigate this stuff, but it sounds to me just like psychological wish fulfillment" or those who do believe and are like me, unsteady of foot at times. It is probably more of a personality trait than anything. I find it is more powerful when I am physically compromised and beaten down, but anything can trigger it.

If you just don't ever go there, be thankful. It is a great blessing.

Always remember, every one deals with these thoughts. It’s what you do with them that counts.
Job stated at the end that “ what I feared has come upon me”. It was his fear that allowed all those horrific things to be thrust into his life.
How many times in the bible are instructions started with the simple words “fear not”. It’s for a reason.

Phil. 4:8

“Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report, if there be any virtue and if there be any praise, think on these things.”

Take control of your thoughts, don’t let them control you. 😉

 

[xtp308]

This is certainly true. I would not wish that sinking feeling of black despair on anyone, and I certainly do not believe that my reasoning powers are the final touchstone for truth in the universe. I am saying that sometimes they look true, and after a brief affirmation that God really does not love me (using my reasoning per: above), I can return to the main task at hand which is self hatred, regret, recriminations, anger, and self pity.

Some of you in here don't go there. My mom never did, really. Her faith was more simple and solid and she would tell me "you wear yourself out and cause yourself unnecessary trouble getting fixated on this stuff. Just believe in the love of God."

I am not denying the truth of that. Folks like that - and my best and dearest Christian friend from HS is one - accepts these forays into the slough of despond as something that just come to some people, although he does not understand them. His counsel (which is true and from love) is at the core, simple. "Just believe."

The post was not to upset anyone. It was for those who might say "I maybe would like to investigate this stuff, but it sounds to me just like psychological wish fulfillment" or those who do believe and are like me, unsteady of foot at times. It is probably more of a personality trait than anything. I find it is more powerful when I am physically compromised and beaten down, but anything can trigger it.

If you just don't ever go there, be thankful. It is a great blessing.

My son got his masters in Apologetics. Basically, it is the study of “what we believe”. It uses classical logic to examine faith and Scripture. He said he would never again study Apologetics because of the emotional pain it caused. He called it “really dark stuff”. Just from the few things of his that I’ve read, it’s torturous.

I understand your attraction to doing this. God made us to question things. I’ve done it myself and will continue to do so. I don’t think He made us to be mindless drones, just doing dogma and accepting everything on face value. If He wanted that, Martin Luther wouldn’t have done what he did and changed the world.

Faith is the “evidence of things unseen”. Logic cannot fill the void in us. Only relationship will. That’s why you have a lot of really smart, but unhappy people. The root (original sin) is vanity and pride. I think we’re supposed to ask questions and ponder our conclusions, then retreat back to faith and recharge. That’s what I do.
Basically, the pain comes from trying (with our finite feeble vision) to apply physical logic to spiritual matters. So, we’re already using apples to examine oranges.

I applaud and compliment your ability to describe your situation and discomfort. You explained it much better than I could. Great teaching !!!!

Please don’t let my response kill this thread, it’s good stuff. “We are more than a firearms forum”.

 

[Tailhunter]

Mark 10:15

God made it simple, don’t over think it you’ll hurt yourself.


“Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.”

 

[Starkherz199]

My son got his masters in Apologetics. Basically, it is the study of “what we believe”. It uses classical logic to examine faith and Scripture. He said he would never again study Apologetics because of the emotional pain it caused. He called it “really dark stuff”. Just from the few things of his that I’ve read, it’s torturous.

I understand your attraction to doing this. God made us to question things. I’ve done it myself and will continue to do so. I don’t think He made us to be mindless drones, just doing dogma and accepting everything on face value. If He wanted that, Martin Luther wouldn’t have done what he did and changed the world.

Faith is the “evidence of things unseen”. Logic cannot fill the void in us. Only relationship will. That’s why you have a lot of really smart, but unhappy people. The root (original sin) is vanity and pride. I think we’re supposed to ask questions and ponder our conclusions, then retreat back to faith and recharge. That’s what I do.
Basically, the pain comes from trying (with our finite feeble vision) to apply physical logic to spiritual matters. So, we’re already using apples to examine oranges.

I applaud and compliment your ability to describe your situation and discomfort. You explained it much better than I could. Great teaching !!!!

Please don’t let my response kill this thread, it’s good stuff. “We are more than a firearms forum”.

Where did he go for the Master’s degree. I've always planned to get that done, but I'll have to wait till I get my own kids out of college for that.

 

[Starkherz199]

But then again, maybe someone in here is just as fouled up as I am, and you might feel like you are at the bottom of the well with nothing but smooth walls around you and no way out. I get there from time to time, trying to figure out "evil" in the universe and a good God (yes, I have read Augustine and CS Lewis "the problem of pain"... they were helpful, but in the end..........). Here is a sort of meditation I put together as I am climbing out of a period of real blackness and despair. I know it is related to the shock my body has experienced, but the feels are the most intense stuff I have ever experienced.

Like I said, if the shoe does not fit, just move on and mark me as weird.....

11 My son, do not despise the Lord's discipline or be weary of his reproof,
12 for the Lord reproves him whom he loves, as a father the son in whom he delights.

Sin and unbelief says "God is mean. He is arbitrary. He does not care. He is cruel. He has abandoned you." ....... and I listen and nod. I cannot logically abandon the idea of God himself. Too much evidence and too much logical nonsense necessary to go there (if you are not convinced of that and want to hear, pm me). Instead, I lapse into horrible distorted grotesque images of a "god" who plays with his creation like a cruel cat with a wounded mouse. When the love of God in Christ breaks thru that stuff, it is pure happiness. It makes the black despair somehow worth it, because I see the love in a new way. It is a foreview into something that has plagued my thoughts since I figured out how to think them.... that God is a cosmic monster who turns evil loose on a world He made because He is "above it all" and is in fact more wicked than the devil himself, and I am stuck because I am little and cannot have the power to judge, although my logic screams that I am in the right and He is wrong. I still don't understand all this, and when I trust in my own understanding, I wind up there, screaming obscenities at God who is neither moved nor pays attention (this is what hell will be, I am convinced). It is only the gospel that gives me a foretaste of the vision I will have in the next life of "ooooohhhhhhhh! Now I see it! You are not only good, but good beyond my ability to fathom!" I still don't understand it all logically. The problem of evil is the most poignant when I feel alone and abandoned, and all my plans are just cavalierly smashed and I feel humiliated (just went thru a period like that).

The gospel is beautiful this a.m., because it lets me see that God's correction is not hateful and mean, but is the action of a loving father who DELIGHTS in me (so it says in the text) and I am happy and grateful.

Thanks for putting up with the rant.

Its a brutal irony.
The thinking and introspective man who, in despair over the meaninglessness of life, seeks through knowledge, learning, and studying, the answers to this inner angst; only to realize through the increase of wisdom that...vanity of vanities...life is often even more meaningless than previously imagined. The increase of knowledge only makes you more acute to this problem.

I get it.

The only escape is finding meaning. And I've only found meaning in Scripture.

 

[xtp308]

Where did he go for the Master’s degree. I've always planned to get that done, but I'll have to wait till I get my own kids out of college for that.

Liberty.

 

[tanstaafl72555]

Almost all good seminaries nowadays have remote study programs.

I have a friend who teaches at Liberty University. I would recommend a program based NOT on the premise that one can use unaided human reason to wend its way back to God.

The earlier poster had to do with pursuing studies in this area. I cannot recommend highly enough starting with two books to "set the stage." One is by Colin Brown "Philosophy and the Christian Faith" (if it is still in print) and the other is Francis Schaeffer's "He is There and He is Not Silent." These helped me immensely in establishing a framework of "how to think" about faith, reason, and doubt. I would also recommend listening to the debate between Greg Bahnsen and Gordon Stein. This path is a bit "different" than most Christian approaches (including Liberty), which follow the path of Thomas Aquinas .... or at least how Aquinas is presented (which I am not sure is totally accurate after reading him a bit), which is that we start with human reason and perceptions and then "work our way" to God.

This is because 1) human reason in itself is baseless without God. I had a secular friend on Facebook who once told me (flustered and upset) "you are telling me you can't even THINK without assuming God"... to which I respond, "when you think about it.... YES " This "school of thought" is based on what we call "presuppositional apologetics" in that one must "presuppose" a world (and more importantly, a mental regime which exists in the human mind) made by God even in order to have a basis for human reason itself. 2) human reason itself is not "neutral" but is innately predisposed to attack God and claim the center of the universe for myself.... or at least the center of MY perceived universe. It is the most "natural" thing in the world to take umbrage and be indignant that there is a being who has the RIGHT to demand submission.

All my extended wail above was about was #2 filtered through a bit of personal anxiety, pain and despair. I have been there before and will doubtless be there again, as a) life is full of pain and b) my personality is bent this way.

I will say that a good background in presuppositional apologetics has pretty much squelched any ideas that I can escape God using my reason. The odd thing about that is that when I am determined not to have faith, that reasoned certainty is actually no help at all. I just hate the truth even more, because I cannot flatter myself in thinking I have ginned up a reasonable escape from God.

If all that don't scratch where you itch, just move on.

 

[tanstaafl72555]

Its a brutal irony.
The thinking and introspective man who, in despair over the meaninglessness of life, seeks through knowledge, learning, and studying, the answers to this inner angst; only to realize through the increase of wisdom that...vanity of vanities...life is often even more meaningless than previously imagined. The increase of knowledge only makes you more acute to this problem.

Now..... where have I heard THAT before?

 

[Vladiator]

A child in mother's womb can apply as much logic and as much personal experience as he/she desires, but still can never fully understand the world outside of the womb. But all signs point to the world outside of the womb existing.

Same applies to us trying to understand the kingdom God prepared for us, or understand His ways of working on us: we simply can't.

- Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God? But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.
Luke 12:6‭-‬7 KJV
- Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Hebrews 11:1 KJV

 

[Sandman_NC]

Praying for you all.