NC Parents Charged After Son's Friend Accidentally Shoots Self

[Qball]

https://myfox8.com/2018/08/12/north...iend-accidentally-shoots-himself-in-the-head/

This will be a good thread for discussion, at least for me because I am a little foggy on the law regarding access to firearms by minors. In addition, it will be a good addendum to Geezer's thread about the young lady defending her Mom by killing her attacking boyfriend.

In this case, the minor boy visiting had access to a handgun. Would the law still be the same if he had access to a long gun and accidentally killed himself?

If the parents in this story broke the law by allowing access to a firearm by a minor, then wouldn't the Mom whose life was saved by her teenage daughter in Geezer's thread be guilty of the same crime since her 12 year old son had access to a firearm and retrieved it before giving it to his older sister?

Is the law applied only due to the circumstances surrounding an incident involving the access and discharge of a firearm inside a dwelling by a minor? In other words, are charges only applied to the adults if a ND injury/death, or criminal use of the firearm by the minor is involved but not applied if the minor has access to the firearm and uses it in the defense of self or others in the dwelling?

The last question is related to my first question above. Is how the law in these cases applied all dependent upon whether a handgun or long gun was the firearm involved in the shooting?

Maybe each case is subject to interpretation based on the facts and circumstances of each individual case. It's confusing to me, as I'm sure it is to others. Maybe that's the intent: Keep everyone confused about the law and how it is applied and subject to interpretation by the criminal justice system.

I'd really like to hear some discussion on this because I really do wonder. I've looked at the statutes and they are very confusing and seem to be subject to interpretation.

 

[Howland]

Sixteen years old is old enough to know better than to point a gun at something you don't want to put a hole in.

Who showed him where the pistol was?
Who gave him access to it?
Who allowed him to play with it?

 

[Qball]

Sixteen years old is old enough to know better than to point a gun at something you don't want to put a hole in.

I agree. However, my questions still stand. Basically it comes down to this: If the 12 year old son in Geezer's story had access to a firearm, as well as the other minors in the house, then why isn't the Mom in that story charged for the same crime that the parents in this thread are charged for?

I'm in no way agreeing that the parents should be charged with anything. Far from it. This thread was just started as a mere discussion about the access to firearms by minors law and how it is applied under different circumstances.

 

[B00ger]

I don’t know the specifics of the law, but I do know it is illegal to store a firearm in a way that would make it accessible to a minor. The degree to how “inaccessible” something needs to be is probably up to interpretation though.


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[Pack72]

I grew up in Marion and McDowell county. I probably know somebody who is related to these two. It might even be me.

 

[np307]

Whether someone can be charged or not depends on the circumstances.

§ 14-315.1. Storage of firearms to protect minors.

(a) Any person who resides in the same premises as a minor, owns or possesses a firearm, and stores or leaves the firearm (i) in a condition that the firearm can be discharged and (ii) in a manner that the person knew or should have known that an unsupervised minor would be able to gain access to the firearm, is guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor if a minor gains access to the firearm without the lawful permission of the minor's parents or a person having charge of the minor and the minor:

(1) Possesses it in violation of G.S. 14-269.2(b);

(2) Exhibits it in a public place in a careless, angry, or threatening manner;

(3) Causes personal injury or death with it not in self defense; or

(4) Uses it in the commission of a crime.

(b) Nothing in this section shall prohibit a person from carrying a firearm on his or her body, or placed in such close proximity that it can be used as easily and quickly as if carried on the body.

(c) This section shall not apply if the minor obtained the firearm as a result of an unlawful entry by any person.

(d) "Minor" as used in this section means a person under 18 years of age who is not emancipated. (1993, c. 558, s. 2; 1994, Ex. Sess., c. 14, s. 11.)

https://www.ncleg.net/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_14/GS_14-315.1.html

 

[kcult]

https://myfox8.com/2018/08/12/north...iend-accidentally-shoots-himself-in-the-head/

This will be a good thread for discussion...

Only if you want to know who's to blame and what should happen to those involved.

But, for comparison's sake, if I were to think about both situations and super over simplify them, I would liken this to speeding, with or without a reason. You broke the law when you went over the limit. You were caught. Why were you speeding? Late for work? Your house is on fire? Just in a hurry? Your answer may help the officer decide whether to cite you or let you go with only a verbal warning.

Again, that is a truly over simplification, but in my mind, that's how I see this law being applied or not being applied. The law was broken, but the result was a positive? Let's not file charges. The result was negative? Let's file charges.

 

[Qball]

So.... I reckon a parent(s) or legal guardian of a minor residing in the same household can legally allow said minor to have access to a firearm as long as the firearm is not used in the commission of a crime and is not accessible by other minors not residing in the household and is used by the minor as a means of self-defense while inside the household?

Did I get that right? What about if no one is home and a minor breaks in the home, finds the unsecured firearm, and either accidentally kills him/herself, or takes the firearm off the premises and commits a crime with it?

 

[Qball]

A related question would be:

If application of the law is directly related to the circumstances of an incident and interpretation of the law as to how it shall apply on a case by case basis, then is it possible for a seriously anti-2A DA to use his/her own prejudice to allow charges to be filed against someone like the Mom in Geezer's thread?

Thanks for the input. I'm sure this has been discussed before somewhere. But you can never have enough information regarding this stuff.

 

[Sevenshot]

The only way to prevent this is to charge the owner. Lock up yours guns, especially if company comes over. I often leave my carry gun laying around when I get home, but it's the first thing I put away if someone might stop by.

 

[CZfool68]

A related question would be:

If application of the law is directly related to the circumstances of an incident and interpretation of the law as to how it shall apply on a case by case basis, then is it possible for a seriously anti-2A DA to use his/her own prejudice to allow charges to be filed against someone like the Mom in Geezer's thread?

Thanks for the input. I'm sure this has been discussed before somewhere. But you can never have enough information regarding this stuff.

Exactly. But that is where we are. Politics of the jurisdiction matter.

 

[fishgutzy]

The only way to prevent this is to charge the owner. Lock up yours guns, especially if company comes over. I often leave my carry gun laying around when I get home, but it's the first thing I put away if someone might stop by.

Yup.
We have exterior grade keyed door locks on our bedroom and the room with a hardware cabinet.
When company is over with kids those rooms are locked.
When I'm away on business, my EDC is in the locked cabinet.

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[Qball]

The only way to prevent this is to charge the owner. Lock up yours guns, especially if company comes over. I often leave my carry gun laying around when I get home, but it's the first thing I put away if someone might stop by.

I lock up our firearms when we have visitors or are not home. But that doesn't address my concerns about a minor living in the household having access to a firearm, supervised or unsupervised.

There have been countless cases in the news over the years of minors being home alone, unsupervised, and defending themselves, sometimes with fatal results, with an unsecured firearm.

 

[BlackGun]

The law is not always the law. The sheriff and the DA in that county will apply the law as they wish. Civil lawsuits then get filed if the parents wish. Not every county DA does what the law states. Those two government jobs have no bosses. Makin rules, and breakin rules.

 

[Qball]

The only way to prevent this is to charge the owner.

Charge the owner in both of the cases outlined in this thread? In other words, should the Mom in Geezer's thread be charged as well? She violated the exact same law as the parents did in this thread's story.

Should the owner of the firearm get charged if he/she left firearm accessible to their minor while they weren't home and the minor used it in self defense while in the home?

I guess I'm just having a problem with the part about two parents leaving their firearm accessible to their minor son and getting charged after a friend of their son comes over and shoots himself with it.

But in the other story, a 12 year old has unsupervised access to a firearm and gives it to his minor sister and she uses it to kill her Mom's boyfriend while he's attacking her.

I guess it all comes down to the risk you want to take with regards to leaving firearms accessible to minors.

You either risk leaving them defenseless while you're away, or you leave them with a means of protecting themselves, and possibly others, while you're away...... the second option comes with the risk of you/spouse going to prison if a minor outside your household gets access to the firearm you left with your minor.

 

[J R Green]

Couple of points,
You are reminded of the law every time you purchase a firearm from a dealer, they even make you sign a form stating so.

It doesn't matter whether it's a long gun or hand gun.

D A's are often reluctant to charge a victim of a serious crime for a trivial one, they are politicians after all.

In the second case the one who was guilty of allowing the access of the firearm is dead.

 

[kcult]

But that doesn't address my concerns about a minor living in the household having access to a firearm, supervised or unsupervised.

There have been countless cases in the news over the years of minors being home alone, unsupervised, and defending themselves, sometimes with fatal results, with an unsecured firearm.

You want a discussion about the law, but you'll get mostly lectures.

This is the reason I find it harder and harder to remain here.

 

[Qball]

You want a discussion about the law, but you'll get mostly lectures.

This is the reason I find it harder and harder to remain here.

Understood.

 

[Qball]

In the second case the one who was guilty of allowing the access of the firearm is dead.

What if the firearm the 12 year old handed to his older sister belonged to his Mom and she routinely left it accessible to her children?

 

[11B CIB]

What if the firearm the 12 year old handed to his older sister belonged to his Mom and she routinely left it accessible to her children?

It seems like the outcome is what determines it.

Killed someone trying to kill you/your mom? No charges.

Someone negligently killed? Charges.

Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. You just have to live your life the best way you see fit.

 

[JimP42]

The law was posted above. Which part isn’t clear? Not trying to be a pain. Just read the whole thing carefully. You are supposed to be given a copy of exactly that law every time you buy a gun from an FFL in NC.

Basically if a minor has access because the adult stored it that way, the adult is liable for anything stupid the minor(s) do. So don’t give access to stupid minors or their stupid friends.

If a kid or anyone else breaks in and as a result the minor gets it, adult is not at fault. If a minor uses it lawfully in self defense, the adult is not at fault for anything. The law is explicit on those.

 

[Qball]

D A's are often reluctant to charge a victim of a serious crime for a trivial one, they are politicians after all.

That's where my problem lies. I have an anal retentive obsessive compulsive personality that looks at things as they appear to me very objectively.

Having a "reluctancy to charge" is quite a bit different than having, according to a clear and concise law, an "inability to charge". That is why I started this thread.

If it's all based on a prosecutor's personal feelings and motivation/reluctancy to charge or not to charge, and not simply on a clearly outlined law, then I have a problem with it.

The law shouldn't be foggy and subject to interpretation in my opinion.

 

[J R Green]

What if the firearm the 12 year old handed to his older sister belonged to his Mom and she routinely left it accessible to her children?

What if cows had wings?

Are you saying that was the case here? I'm pretty sure the woman didn't control the household considering how it ended. If the Detectives found the case to be different they would address it then.
Again refer to the DA's being elected officials and having discretion on what they charge.

 

[Qball]

Which part isn’t clear? Not trying to be a pain.

Trust me. I don't think you are being a pain. I started this thread to get information. The two parents were charged with manslaughter. Is that a Class 1 midemeanor? I really don't know that's why I'm asking.

I've seen and read this law countless times. I'll log on to the state's website and see if I can take a closer look. Thanks.

 

[Qball]

What if cows had wings?

I guess we'd all be eating chicken then.

 

[J R Green]

The law shouldn't be foggy and subject to interpretation in my opinion

So absolute charges and no one has any discretion no matter the circumstances?
We could just have robots do the law enforcement but I don't want to live in that world.

 

[CZfool68]

So absolute charges and no one has any discretion no matter the circumstances?
We could just have robots do the law enforcement but I don't want to live in that world.

Someone has to program the robots. So there is still discretion.

How about less laws that are more black and white. Get rid of the laws that were written because of a one in a million fluke, or just to get a politician good press. Kinda like putting up a traffic light because there was one tragic accident in 50 years.

 

[Qball]

Which part isn’t clear

is guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor if a minor gains access to the firearm without the lawful permission of the minor's parents or a person having charge of the minor and the minor:

(3) Causes personal injury or death with it not in self defense;

So the manslaughter charge the two parents received is a Class 1 misdemeanor or is it a felony?

That's part of where it isn't clear.

 

[Sevenshot]

The minor has to do something stupid for the law to apply. If a minor shits on a gun and nothing happens does it make a sound?

It's very clearly not damned if you do or don't.

Don't put your finger on the trigger unless you are ready to shoot.
Don't point a gun, loaded or unloaded, at any person you aren't intending to kill.

The girl didn't get to shoot a random person, she shot a criminal threatening the life of her mother. Don't think for a minute both families haven't lawyered up anyway, including this hero girl.

It's not black and white because a cascade of stupidity must occur before any charges could be filed. Break the cascade.

If you want unnecessary and additional clarification, lawmakers will add to the current laws. I guarantee those additions won't be 2a friendly so let's not ask for it when it's not needed.

 

[11B CIB]

The law was posted above. Which part isn’t clear? Not trying to be a pain. Just read the whole thing carefully. You are supposed to be given a copy of exactly that law every time you buy a gun from an FFL in NC.

Basically if a minor has access because the adult stored it that way, the adult is liable for anything stupid the minor(s) do. So don’t give access to stupid minors or their stupid friends.

If a kid or anyone else breaks in and as a result the minor gets it, adult is not at fault. If a minor uses it lawfully in self defense, the adult is not at fault for anything. The law is explicit on those.

This case in particular is about NC law but this forum encompasses more than NC

The minor has to do something stupid for the law to apply. If a minor shits on a gun and nothing happens does it make a sound?

It's very clearly not damned if you do or don't.

Don't put your finger on the trigger unless you are ready to shoot.
Don't point a gun, loaded or unloaded, at any person you aren't intending to kill.

The girl didn't get to shoot a random person, she shot a criminal threatening the life of her mother. Don't think for a minute both families haven't lawyered up anyway, including this hero girl.

It's not black and white because a cascade of stupidity must occur before any charges could be filed. Break the cascade.

If you want unnecessary and additional clarification, lawmakers will add to the current laws. I guarantee those additions won't be 2a friendly so let's not ask for it when it's not needed.

There are more outcomes than just those provided (or not) by the law. That was sort of what I meant by damned if you do etc.

Not everything is given to us in the letter of the law by our masters FYI

 

[Qball]

So absolute charges and no one has any discretion no matter the circumstances?
We could just have robots do the law enforcement but I don't want to live in that world.

You can continue attempting to trigger me into losing control on here, but it'll never work. I'm not that kind of person and really don't care what someone says or how they respond to me.

 

[kcult]

is guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor if a minor gains access to the firearm without the lawful permission of the minor's parents or a person having charge of the minor and the minor:

(3) Causes personal injury or death with it not in self defense;

So the manslaughter charge the two parents received is a Class 1 misdemeanor or is it a felony?

That's part of where it isn't clear.

I'm curious what lawful permission is. To me, this says that as long as the parent or guardian gives the minor permission to handle the firearm, then even if it is discharged not in a SD situation, the adults are absolved?

Wow. That sounds like their defense would be, "I gave them permission to handle it."

I'm suspecting my reading comprehension is lacking.

 

[Sevenshot]

I get context can get lost in writing but losing control is the reason why most "discussion" or debate is impossible. Losing control should be reserved for actual insults.

A quick Google search on some of the questions posted have legal precedent in NC that would be favorable for "heroes."

 

[J R Green]

You can continue attempting to trigger me into losing control on here, but it'll never work. I'm not that kind of person and really don't care what someone says or how they respond to me.

I don't know why my comments on your views would trigger you. It's my right to apply a reality filter to your assessment and disagree.

 

[Sevenshot]

I'm curious what lawful permission is. To me, this says that as long as the parent or guardian gives the minor permission to handle the firearm, then even if it is discharged not in a SD situation, the adults are absolved?

Wow. That sounds like their defense would be, "I gave them permission to handle it."

I'm suspecting my reading comprehension is lacking.

You don't give permission for negligent discharges.

 

[Qball]

Don't put your finger on the trigger unless you are ready to shoot.
Don't point a gun, loaded or unloaded, at any person you aren't intending to kill.

The minor who was home with his friend didn't put his finger on the trigger nor was he pointing or even holding the firearm. His friend was and accidentally killed himself.

I guess it all comes down to this: Regardless of the age of your kids, if they are under the age of 18, never allow them to have access to a firearm while you and your significant other are away.

That's how I see it anyway.

 

[Sevenshot]

You know your kids. My parents trusted me hunting as a kid and I'm a huge proponent for starting them young, but that excludes a few of my young cousins...

 

[Qball]

It's my right to apply a reality filter to your assessment and disagree.

It's certainly my right towards you as well.

 

[NCFubar]

I can see this charge being more and more prevalent in the future with the wave of anti-gun sentiment. The same wave that has said children need to be protected from guns rather than educated about them. I taught my kid from a very early age what a gun would do when not handled properly. I drilled it in him if he were ever in a situation with someone handling one that likely shouldn’t get out ASAFP and tell an adult.

Civil proceedings are far easier to make a case for with negligence and such but criminal charges are going to be dependent on the jury’s view of the phrasing of the laws involved, the way the attorneys try to play those laws and the way the judge charges the jury for deliberation.

 

[Qball]

I'm curious what lawful permission is. To me, this says that as long as the parent or guardian gives the minor permission to handle the firearm, then even if it is discharged not in a SD situation, the adults are absolved?

Wow. That sounds like their defense would be, "I gave them permission to handle it."

I'm suspecting my reading comprehension is lacking.

That's another part that I wasn't understanding. Thanks