Discussion in 'PHA Tactical 2 Gun' started by 2alpha-down0, May 29, 2019.
Dust 'em off, guys!
I'll post more info as I get it.
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Oh I am excited.
Just saw the fb post, so glad to hear someone was able to step up!
Hey guys and gals, I have a bit of info about the PHA match that I can share with everyone, when I get more time I’ll go into more detail about the direction that the new match director is going to be taking the PHA match, but here are the cliff notes.
Keep in mind that what I am about to share is subject to change, I am very good friends with the people that will be running the match so the majority of this info is solid, some of the finer points will be adjusted as things move forward, the changes will be primarily based off of the differences in range rules between the matches home range and PHA range rules, also based on community feedback.
The match will be an Alphas 3 gun QCB match, you can read up on the details here. http://www.cqtas.net/manuals/ALPhAS 6.pdf
Again, the rules will be adjusted to fit allowances PHA provides that Rowan may not, such as the use of slings at the match for example.
The first match in July will be modified a bit due to a request from the folks at PHA, all of the details are still being worked out, but the jest of the modifications are that at least 2 stages will be 2 gun only, from the conversation I had with one of the match directors they will be adding a 2 gun option for folks that do not wish to shoot a shotgun or do not have a shotgun, there will be more info on that at a later date, but the hope is to get the majority of people to shoot 3 gun, there are plans in the works to have a yearly “championship” or ranked match with possible prizes for those that shoot 3 gun, again nothing is set in stone but it is being discussed.
The Alphas 3 gun match is a bit different than a typical 2/3 gun match because the scoring is based on hits and misses, there are no A, C or D scoring options on cardboard targets, you either hit or you miss, pistol and shotgun targets are always steel targets so the only “paper” targets are for rifle, since PHA allows steel rifle targets I imagine we will see less paper and more steel provided the stage design allows steel targets to be engaged safely , of course it will differ from month to month.
In a nutshell, imagine a Cowboy action match with ARs, AKs and semi auto handguns, the classes are setup around the type of gear people want to run, for instance if you have a complete set of camo, plates & carrier and ballistic helmet you can shoot in the “operator” class, if you lack a helmet but have everything else you can shoot in the contractor class, if your not into dressing up or think all that stuff is silly or stupid, just run your normal match gear like I do and wear shorts & t-shirt, holster, mag carriers etc and shoot in “High speed, low drag”
The whole premise of the class system is to allow people to actually use the chest rig they bought at the last gun show for $20 and not feel out of place, the vast majority of us didn’t know what works and what didn’t until we got out to the range and used the gear, this match is setup to cater to as wide of an audience as possible, from the guy that bought a ton of tacticool crap off of eBay to a seasoned 3 gun shooter or a serious USPSA/IPSC shooter looking to get some trigger time in, one of the greatest things about the match is you can view it as a laid back day at the range with your friends and other like minded people or you can use it as a venue to keep your skills sharp for the”serious” matches, I’ve seen a number of high end shooters trying new gear and tactics at this match, more often than not they take the time to help out the new folks by offering advice and doing a little coaching.
The Alphas match is all about introducing people shooting on the clock , it is extremely “new shooter” friendly and yet is challenging enough for highly experienced shooters to come out and hone their skills, the primary objective is to get more people into shooting sports, the vast majority of folks will never be able to compete in semi pro, let alone professional shooting sports so the match provides an environment that will allow novice shooters to get out and learn from the folks that do, at the end of the day the folks that run Alphas attempt to provide a fun and safe event that anyone can participate in.
I’ve rambled on long enough, but if anyone has any questions feel free to shoot me a message or just post them here, if I don’t have an answer for you I’ll do my best to find the answer for you.
I am in no way a representative of the people that will be running the match, I am friends with most of them and I’m just helping out however I can to get the PHA match back up and running again, I plan on ROing and helping with the match operations as I have in the past at Rowan, I understand that this match setup won’t be ideal for everyone so please give the match a chance and offer suggestions rather than burning it down, constructive criticism is helpful and welcome.
Damn, this is the same weekend my home club shoots their 2 gun match, it's Central Carolina Gun Club.
Is it June 8th or July? The PHA newsletter is contradicting this post and the fb post.
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I'm a little confused by the change in direction. Granted, 1) this is just 1 mans opinion and 2) while I've shot the PHA 2 gun match over 20 times starting in 2013, I have been gravitating more towards pistol shooting the last 1.5 years so I haven't shot it since Aug 2017, and 3) I have shot 3G a few times but I am not an avid 3G shooter.
Also, I know it is a lot of work (and in some cases, thankless) to be a Match Director - so I think it's fantastic someone is going to pick up the torch and provide an offering for shooters to enjoy.
So, with those caveats, here are my concerns:
- Diminished focus on accuracy - I don't see a benefit in going to hits/misses. It was always great to see people learn about height over bore (ha) and to figure out their brake pedal was just as important as the gas. This will be eroded
- Divisions focused on dress - I don't recall anyone every appearing self-conscious if they chose to gear up at the 2G. I don't see why you would choose to segment shooters this way
- Inclusion of shotgun - PHA 2G was popular because it wasn't a 3G, of which there are multiple options if you like 3G shooting. Just my opinion, but shotgun in 3G is 2G with a shotgun loading contest. Blasting poppers at 10Y with bird shot is not a challenge (quick shotgun reloading is the differentiator, which can be a money game).
I think you guys had the right formula with the spirit and intent of the 2Gun. This feels like a pivot from a challenging, unique tactical carbine match - to hoser stages that look good on YouTube.
Perhaps, though - I am wrong and these are welcome changes. In which case, I am open to correction.
Yeah, I agree. I'm not stepping up to run it so I guess I can't complain as much, and I haven't been down to shoot it as much as I would have liked to over the last couple years, but I don't think we were having trouble filling the match every month? A prize table sounds sweet, but on the other hand I didn't get the feeling that people were clamoring for shotgun stages.
I thought the balance of accuracy and speed of the match was ideal. It was demanding but not punishing. This sounds like a low bar hose fest.
I'm also not clear on why we're moving it to the same day as the CCGC 2-gun and the Rowan USPSA matches. If there's a good reason for it, then okay, but it should be explained.
The newsletter is correct. The date was changed to July 13th shortly after the initial announcement.
I spoke with the new MD late last night. As of now, it will be a 4-stage ALPHAS-style 3-gun match with a 2-gun division.
I plan to meet with Gene and the ALPHAS guys next week to iron out range-specific issues and provide input, but I do not think that any fundamental changes to their plans for the format will be made.
Strange rule set. Seems to be focused on a military style dress up rather than shooting.
Won't be making this one I am afraid. None of my gear fits into any "division". And I have 3 different belt/holster rigs!
But glad they are doing a match out there again. Good luck with it.
I too hope this isn’t going to be a dress up like an SF guy and hose down the targets competition. I don’t have a competition shotgun atm.
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Seems interesting. Looks like the high speed low drag class will work for.
Its probably because they already run the same style match at Rowan on the 3rd Saturday.
Plenty of youtube videos if y'all want to get an idea
of what to expect.
Very cool that we will have a choice to run 3 gun or 2 gun.
Very excited to see the tactical match, and will participate when I can.
Though, like echo'd, I wish there was more emphasis placed on accuracy, not just hitting target.
Im really curious how the shotgun portion will run. I have a basic M2000 Stoeger that I'd love to shoot more and would try it.
Also, curious how the classes will work out - is how you dress the only thing that changes your classes?
Let's see...... H&K G3, 1911 and a Mossberg 500. You did say the steel is rifle rated, after all!
I'll say this - Im really looking forward to taking the HK SBR out to a match!
MP5 vs Cx4
The match is different than what most of us are used too for sure, I’ve shot the Alphas match a good bit over the past several years and I’ve shot PHA and CCGC with a lot of you folks, I’d hope that those that have met and shot with me know me well enough to know that I’d be the first to tell you if a match is garbage or not, if it isn’t safe, fun & challenging I sure as hell wouldn’t waste my time let alone try to drag anyone else along with me.
The image that a lot of people get in their minds about the match format is that it’s a hose fest that doesn’t require any skill, it really isn’t, the match is designed to cover a wide range of ages, fitness levels, shooting abilities and skill sets, some new shooters may find things too complex and seasoned 2/3 gun shooters may find things to be too remedial, but the folks that are advanced enough shooters can make things much more challenging for themselves, you can decide to make all headshots, shoot strong hand or offhand as you choose, you can limit the amount of rounds you have in your mags, you can add more reloads etc.
Remember that this is not a ranked match that costs $150-$200 in entry fees and there are no prizes on the line, this match offers people the ability to test their shooting abilities in ways that most ranges won’t allow, the whole point is to put rounds on target as fast as you can and you have to think about engagement protocols such as target order, the number of rounds for which targets, shooting order just like any other match, believe me when I say that just because your not striving for all “As” doesn’t mean you’ll be banging on the trigger as fast as you can and be bored out of your mind, the whole mentality of the match format has a different vibe and you will still gain experience and learn plenty about what you’re doing or not doing well behind the gun.
The shotgun portion of the stages are normally fairly short and too the point, you won’t be stacking 4-6 shells doing monster reloads while chasing down 20-30 targets, you might see anywhere from 2 to 8 shotgun targets, you can only load as many shells as their are targets (unless the stage calls for something specific), if you miss a target you’ll combat reload until you knock it down or run out of shells, pretty straight forward.
The classes are primarily for people that want to “kit up” in full tactical gear and shoot in “operator”, be a “zombie hunter” and carry a big ass knife around or if you want to throw on a WW 2 OD green uniform and shoot your M1 carbine, the classes are there to offer another layer to the match, the guys that run the match are either former or current Cowboy Action shooters, if putting on an outfit isn’t your thing just wear what you would normally wear at any other match and shoot “High Speed, Low Drag” which is the class 90% of people end up being in, as I mentioned in an earlier post, I wear shorts and a t-shirt when I shoot the match.
As to the weekend change for the match, I believe it is because the folks that will be running the PHA match already run their match on the 4th Saturday of the month and it would be rough running matches 2 weekends in a row, I also try to shoot the CCGC match in Burlington on the second Saturday of the month but between the weather and my “on call” schedule one or more of my match weekends gets hosed, for me personally I’ll try to shoot the CCGC match on the second Saturday and shoot the Rowan Alphas match on the 4th Saturday, the schedule isn’t as ideal as it was having CCGC the 2nd Saturday, PHA the 3rd and Rowan the 4th but now I’ll be able to try and catch one of the two Alphas matches every month and hopefully be able to catch the pistol match at PHA more often.
I hope people choose to give the new match a chance and go in with an open mind, there are a bunch of great people that shoot the Alphas 3 gun at Rowan and the guys that run the match are stand up folks that do their very best to support the shooting community, they know the match won’t be for everyone and that’s ok too, but I am of the opinion that anything we can do to support a match that draws new people into the sport is a damn good thing, even if you end up finding that this particular style of match isn’t up to your skill level or liking for one reason or another, I do not think you will find a better match to introduce new shooters too.
It sounds fun and challenging, and educational, but I only have a handgun, so I'm out. (I'm also a newbie to matches, but maybe in a couple of years I might be ready. I like something that pushes me out of the comfort zone!)
I agree with this, especially from the accuracy standpoint. I also enjoyed the lack of shotgun, but that probably would not keep me from competing. I'll at least give it a chance if it goes this route.
In the long run this will build participation. Dress up and be John Wick like SASS figured out, They Will Come.
I’m just seeing this Millie.
I can assure you that if you show up to a match and lack anything, someone will take you under their wing and get you what you need to shoot, if you know for a fact you’ll make the trip, let me know and I’ll bring some extra gear and get you on a squad, you’re more than welcome to shoot anything I have, I normally shoot “low recoil” or “light field loads” at this match so if you haven’t shot a 12ga much or ever, it won’t beat the snot out of you, I can make sure you’re on my squad so you’ll have access to the guns you need.
The above goes for anyone, I can loan out an AR and handgun if you end up on another squad, I only own one shotgun so if you need to shoot it you’ll have to be on the same squad as me, but keep in mind I’m not rich, all I ask is people to bring their own factory loaded ammo, I’ve got one AR that I only shoot brass cased ammo out of and one that you can shoot steel out of, I don’t shoot steel out of my handguns but aluminum is fine, my shotgun needs brass 12ga though because my 870 is the bottom of the line cheapest 870 tactical that Remington makes and the aluminum “low brass” based shells cause the action to stick, when fired the low case aluminum bases expands too much and racking the slide can be a bitch sometimes, the cheap low actual brass field/target # 8 shot loads run flawlessly (high brass shells and magnum 00 buck and slugs never cause issues, but you can’t shoot those in a match, not that you’d want too).
I normally bring an extra Glock holster, mag carrier and extra ammo with me as well, I’ve walked out of the house more than once and left ammo, guns, hearing protection, eye protection and pretty much any other item you might need for a match sitting on a table and people have always stepped up and loaned me anything I need, so now I try to be “that guy” and have extras with me to get someone through the match, hell we’ve had people show up to just watch an Alphas match and end up wishing they brought their gear so we tell them to go pay the match director and loan them everything needed To shoot, as I’ve said before, you honestly won’t find a much nicer group of people at a match.
Thanks for the offer. By then it will probably be too hot for me, though. But I never know from one day to the next what I might do!
I've never even seen a shotgun outside of a gun shop, and I'm kind of afraid to shoot one. I do plan to get my hands on one at some point, but in a match might not be the best time to learn about it! Lol.
I'll let you know if I get a crazy idea to do this, though.
Keep in mind you can shoot in the 2 gun division and skip shotgun altogether to get started.
I'll keep that in mind for the cooler months....I'm basically just pining for winter now! Lol.
Hey guys, My name is Gene and I will be the new Match Director for the tactical match. A little about me in way of introduction.
I am pretty recently retired from a local Sheriff's Dept and am a State Certified Instructor and Firearms Instructor. I also teach the CCW course, and I still work part-time with the SD and work for a local college as a Public Safety Officer.
I started competitive shooting in the early 90's with Cowboy Action and have a fairly low SASS number,22954. My SASS alias is Deputy Gene. I really got into CAS mid 90's until mid 2000's and still shoot the occasional match. Mid 2000's I started shooting some USPSA and shot many of the USPSA like matches that were all on steel plates at PHA under Match Director Tosco. I have shot a few IPSC/USPSA style 3 gun matches and enjoyed those, plus it gave me more opportunities to shoot and practice with the weapons I carried on-duty with the SD. A few years ago I sat up and was Match Director for a few 3 gun matches at the Rowan County Peace Officers Association Range. Some clips from those matches are still posted on You Tube. A couple years ago I shot the ALPhAS style match at Rowan Wildlife (Salisbury) and really enjoyed that match. With the retirement of the past Match Director at PHA, I saw this as a great opportunity to have a second ALPhaS match that could be shot monthly. I hope you will give the match a try, and I hope you enjoy it.
For the first time in many years I have the spare time, motivation and dedication to hopefully be able to put on a fun enjoyable shoot. The Salisbury ALPhAS guys have really stepped up to make this match happen. I can't thank them enough! I am also grateful to PHA for giving this style shooting match a chance.
From a couple comments, I believe it was Millie, who said they only have a handgun. Millie, If you, or anyone else wants to try this out, let me know and you can use my gear. Remember also, if you don't want to shoot shotgun, there is a two gun only category. You will only be competing against others shooting in two gun category.
Thanks guys, hope to see you in July!
Im going to, likely, give this a try in July.
@Gene can you confirm that folks are categorized by what they're wearing (ie: helmet and vest, vest only, neither) and on nothing else?
HMP, yes you can choose your category based on what equipment you choose to wear. If you have the stuff for say, Contractor or Operator, and want to compete in that, wear it. If you have none of it, there is High Speed/Low Drag or Friendly New Guy. High Speed/Low drag is often the biggest category.
I often shoot LE category because I have the gear and I am LE. I don't use my issue gear, but my belt is set up just like my LE duty belt, I am issued a G22, I shoot my own G22 that has had better sights installed. Sometimes I shoot a Pump shotgun, sometimes I shoot an auto. July and August, of course, are hot months and there is some relaxation on the gear requirements. This July I will probably wear my Bicycle Patrol uniform .
http://www.cqtas.net/manuals/ALPhAS 7 RCWA.pdf
If it's not raining me and my old man will be there! I will be shooting 3 gun, he will be shooting 2 gun. Going to be a blast!
Not to muddy up the water too much but a friend and forum member @GridlockH8 shot the Alphas match at Rowan today, he went in with a similar attitude towards the rule set and costumes as many of you folks have, I won’t put words into his mouth but the last thing I asked him before we left the match today was “so is this running any different that any other match you’ve shot?” And his answer was no, he appeared to have a great time and seemed to enjoyed the match and said he’d definitely be back with friends.
I’m hoping he will be able to share his thoughts here since it was his first time shooting this match and this format, I am not kidding when I say that this match feels like any other 2\3 gun match that most of you have shot, I think most you you will enjoy it (I’m talking to you @NKD lol)
It was fun, and not the comic-con type atmosphere I was expecting haha. There were a few guys wearing kits at PHA last time I was there, so its honestly not much different. It was like a 3GN, PHA 2gun, and vintage 2gun had a baby. The non-kitted-out class was by far the biggest anyway, and the hit/miss vs. A-B-C-D scoring wasn’t bad at all and definitely made scoring a hell of a lot faster. If you look at the scores from some of the old PHA 2 gun matches, most people had tons of C’s anyway so its really not that different. I used to try to shoot PHA fast but with clean stages, and always had people placing ahead of me with tons of charlie/deltas while I had maybe 5. So, if anything, the old PHA format was a hose-fest too, but I think everyone still enjoyed it.
Edit: during my deep shower thoughts, I decided a more accurate description would be “if 3GN, PHA 2gun, vintage, and chris costa/instructor zero had a baby”. Ok, this is starting to get weird. Back to drinking now.
And I should have mentioned...there definitely is a class for everyone no matter what gear you have. There was a dude on our squad today without a holster. Don’t exactly know that I would recommend that to anyone else if at all possible, but I ran the exact same competition belt that I used at PHA and in USPSA at this match and at least 75% of the people shooting were the same way.
Thanks for traveling deeply into the belly of the beast and returning with info @GridlockH8.
And I was just about to get full sleeves and was working on a sick nickname.
@Tarowah you know I’d be happy to shoot with you anytime! Just didn’t want to have to get gear to do so. Already have too much shooting crap!
I know it’s a haul for you man but since you’ve made the trek before I hope you’ll make it back out and give it a try.
I seriously need to hit some of the matches out your way to see if I can pick up some of that mojo you’ve got going these days, we used to be fairly close at these things but you stepped up your game big time and crush me, I definitely need to get on your match rotation for a few matches!
That would be great, I really enjoy shooting with you.
I picked up a few tricks in uspsa that upped my game. But still get crushed plenty! But thanks man.
I will make it out to one soon, I promise!
GridlockH8, glad you made it! I was the the one in the bright lime green shirt! It was fun, kinda hot, but not too bad. I thought the stages were pretty fun, good amounts of movement.
A little update for our upcoming match. I was able to get 6 STS shotgun targets that used to be used for the PHA Cowboy matches. I have also purchased an additional 6 STS style shotgun targets from a local craftsman. He has three more partially finished. So we have 12, good, shotgun targets. These are great targets, consistent and easily reset. Hope to see you guys in a couple weeks.
BTW, who was the guy with the BAR?
I saw you Gene but didn’t know that was you, my call sign is my last name which is Honey, I am sure we’ll meet at the match.
We had a guy shooting a CETME in our squad, he was a new shooter but he actually did extremely well with that hammer lol
Separate names with a comma.