NFA non NFA question

[mig1nc]

So, I've noticed a number of dealers parting out high end guns for a bigger profit. Ok, I'm not going to argue supply and demand, that's not what this post is about.

But what are the legal ramifications if some guy buys a lower that used to be a rifle, sells it on a forum, ships it to an FFL, wouldn't that FFL transfer it as an "other"?

The reason I ask as an NFA question is if you put a short upper on it, like you normally forks with an "other" receiver, won't you be creating an illegal SBR?


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[patina]

If you put a short barreled (<16”) upper on any rifle lower that is not registered as an SBR, you are committing a felony. A stripped lower receiver is technically “other”. A pistol lower is a pistol and a rifle lower is a rifle.

 

[BigWaylon]

A stripped lower receiver is technically “other”. A pistol lower is a pistol and a rifle lower is a rifle.

All lowers are “other”. Stripped, braced, stocked.

 

[DrScaryGuy]

All lowers are “other”. Stripped, braced, stocked.

that wasn't the OP's question.

If a dealer buys something that left the factory as a rifle, it is a rifle. If they part it out, then you try to make a pistol out of it what you thought was an "other" lower, you've created an NFA weapon made from a rifle, even if you didn't intend to or know it.

Don't be afraid to call the manufacturer, give them your serial number, and ask how it left their factory. I did it with mossberg and found out that the "pistol-grip-only" shotgun I was sold and was thinking to put a 14" barrel on actually left their factory with a full stock. hello felony.

If you want to build a pistol type thing, buy a virgin stripped lower direct from aero, anderson, primary arms, psa, etc. I would not trust some dude on gunbroker or even smaller shops right about now. They're able to part out that $400 complete anderson rifle from a year ago into a $150 lower, a $350 upper, a $150 bcg, a $40 pair of magazines, and a $90 bufer/spring/tube/stock.

Or ask around here. I'm sure somebody has a couple lowers squirreld away that they might be able to lose one of.

 

[BigWaylon]

@mig1nc

This is a question I’ve seen asked before, and there’s been no clear answer from the ATF or in a regulation that I can find. So, I’ll share my opinion on it and the two sides of the argument that I think exist.

First a little discussion. As I mentioned in my reply above, all lowers are “other firearms”. It doesn’t matter if they’re stripped or complete, come with a stock or a brace. You’re completely legal to buy a brand new complete lower that has a stock, remove the stock before attaching any barreled upper, and still initially build a pistol.

The question at hand is how far back do they go to determine if what you actually built is an SBR because it meets the definition of “a weapon made from a rifle” even though it looks just like a pistol. Thus the two side of the argument:

1. If it left the factory a rifle, that lower can never be a pistol.
2. If you buy the lower in non-rifle/non-pistol configuration, especially from a dealer where it’s transferred on a 4473 as “other firearm”, the clock starts over and you can build what you want.

The question becomes if it’s the buyer’s responsibility to hunt down the history of the firearm, or if they can just base it on the most recent transaction. If I had to pick a side, I’d say there’s nothing in the regulations to support #2, so I’d have to join the #1 club.

This is easily avoidable by only buying brand new lowers...stripped, complete, or anywhere in between. Stock or brace doesn’t matter.

Make sense?

 

[BigWaylon]

that wasn't the OP's question.

If a dealer buys something that left the factory as a rifle, it is a rifle. If they part it out, then you try to make a pistol out of it what you thought was an "other" lower, you've created an NFA weapon made from a rifle, even if you didn't intend to or know it.

Don't be afraid to call the manufacturer, give them your serial number, and ask how it left their factory. I did it with mossberg and found out that the "pistol-grip-only" shotgun I was sold and was thinking to put a 14" barrel on actually left their factory with a full stock. hello felony.

If you want to build a pistol type thing, buy a virgin stripped lower direct from aero, anderson, primary arms, psa, etc. I would not trust some dude on gunbroker or even smaller shops right about now. They're able to part out that $400 complete anderson rifle from a year ago into a $150 lower, a $350 upper, a $150 bcg, a $40 pair of magazines, and a $90 bufer/spring/tube/stock.

Or ask around here. I'm sure somebody has a couple lowers squirreld away that they might be able to lose one of.

I know what the OP’s question was...and was typing a reply as you posted. I was pointing out what wasn’t correct in the other answer I quoted.

There’s not really any such thing as a pistol lower or rifle lower.

 

[mig1nc]

BW, Yes, that makes sense. That's basically why I'm asking.

And yeah, I get that buying a lower that's just a lower would be transferred as an other, not a pistol or rifle.

In some cases, you may want to buy a lower that isn't currently available new from the factory. I guess in those cases, you need to demand the serial from the owner to call the manufacturer and confirm the configuration. If they won't give it, don't buy it. I suppose it's as simple as that, barring any official ruling.

 

[BigWaylon]

In some cases, you may want to buy a lower that isn't currently available new from the factory. I guess in those cases, you need to demand the serial from the owner to call the manufacturer and confirm the configuration. If they won't give it, don't buy it. I suppose it's as simple as that, barring any official ruling.

But even then you can’t be sure of the history. It could’ve left the factory as a stripped lower, or complete lower. Somebody could’ve initially built a rifle from it. Then sold the upper (or just removed it). Then they sell/trade the lower to somebody else...and that somebody technically can’t build a pistol from it if you’re in group #1 of the discussion.

 

[DrScaryGuy]

I prefer buying brand new lowers as "other", building them as a pistols first (often by taking the upper off a registered SBR), then immediately rebuilding it as a rifle.
that way if i give/loan/sell, it has all the protections of a rifle without running afoul of the pistol transfer laws, and if i want to rebuild it as a pistol, i'm just returning it to what it originally was. I'd never accidentally or purposely build it into a configuration that is regulated under the NFA

And you'll never get me to say otherwise

 

[BigWaylon]

I prefer buying brand new lowers as "other", building them as a pistols first (often by taking the upper off a registered SBR), then immediately rebuilding it as a rifle.
that way if i give/loan/sell, it has all the protections of a rifle without running afoul of the pistol transfer laws, and if i want to rebuild it as a pistol, i'm just returning it to what it originally was. I'd never accidentally or purposely build it into a configuration that is regulated under the NFA

And you'll never get me to say otherwise

Yep...all you have to do is attach the upper before you install the stock, and you’ve initially built a pistol. 😉

(or if you bought a new complete upper with a stock, remove the stock before installing the upper)

 

[wired]

In my past life as a dealer I had this come up. Guy bought a Colt lower and called the ATF to find out if it had been a virgin lower as he had been told when he bought it or f it came as part of a rifle. The ATF checked the tax records and told him it had been transferred as a rifle originally and had the excise tax paid for by the manufacturer when new as a rifle. The customer refused to accept it and sent it back to the seller. As a dealer I would have transferred it to him as a an other . Lower receivers should NEVER be transferred as a anything but an other by a dealer.

 

[mig1nc]

But even then you can’t be sure of the history. It could’ve left the factory as a stripped lower, or complete lower. Somebody could’ve initially built a rifle from it. Then sold the upper (or just removed it). Then they sell/trade the lower to somebody else...and that somebody technically can’t build a pistol from it if you’re in group #1 of the discussion.

Yeah, but really what matters the most is what the paper trail looks like.

I think in that example the only existing paper trail is other to other.


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[wired]

What matters is if the excuse tax was paid for a rifle. Then it's legally a rifle. Otherwise it was an other initially and you can do whatever with it. Legally that is.