NFA process Trust vs individual

ColtM4A1

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I have had my SBR for over a year now and formed a trust to obtain it. I am now looking to add a rimfire and 308 can to my collection. Is it best to do so with the trust or go with the individual route?
 
Forms coming back now are coming back sooner for individuals than trusts. There's no guarantee that forms submitted today will perform the same. (Odds are they will, but who knows?)

I wouldn't let the timeframe be the deciding factor. If you want the item on the trust, file it that way.
 
I’m probably doing my next one as a trust.

Trust seems to now have the same requirements initially, but I think there are downstream advantages.
 
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Ive done it both ways. Wouldn’t turn my hand over for the difference right now. That may change down the road idk.


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If I was to get started now, I'd do them as a one person trust, and add additional RPs after they were approved. And I'd used a new trust for each batch of forms. Just repeat the file, wait for approval, then add RPs process over and over.

The paperwork for an individual vs a 1-RP trust is basically the same. You simply split the same info over two forms (F1/F4 & 5320.23 RPQ) that you'd put only on the F1/F4 for an individual.
 
If I was to get started now, I'd do them as a one person trust, and add additional RPs after they were approved. And I'd used a new trust for each batch of forms. Just repeat the file, wait for approval, then add RPs process over and over.

The paperwork for an individual vs a 1-RP trust is basically the same. You simply split the same info over two forms (F1/F4 & 5320.23 RPQ) that you'd put only on the F1/F4 for an individual.
What is a "RP"?
 
What is a "RP"?
Responsible Person. It's the ATF's way of determining whether you have to submit fingerprints and photographs for people listed as part of an entity.

Basic answer is trustees/co-trustees (whatever term you want to use) are RPs, but successor trustees and beneficiaries are not.
 
Don't you have to file the fingerprints etc for anyone you add later?
Yes and no.

Yes for anybody that's on the trust at the time of submission. No for anybody you add after the fact.

You can either:
1. Use one trust and just get everybody fingerprinted once
2. Roll your own prints so it's not a big deal regardless of the route you take
3. Remove trustees, file, add them back
4. Use a separate trust for each item (or at least for several filed around the same time), and add other trustees later

If you add trustees after approval, there's no proactive notification (thus no photos/prints) needed.
 
Yes and no.

Yes for anybody that's on the trust at the time of submission. No for anybody you add after the fact.

You can either:
1. Use one trust and just get everybody fingerprinted once
2. Roll your own prints so it's not a big deal regardless of the route you take
3. Remove trustees, file, add them back
4. Use a separate trust for each item (or at least for several filed around the same time), and add other trustees later

If you add trustees after approval, there's no proactive notification (thus no photos/prints) needed.

This is exactly my understanding.

I like to have one trust for each item.
 
What's the reasoning for 1 trust per item?
I'd say flexibility in doing what you want with it, mainly regarding adding RPs specific to each item.

Avoiding prints & photos is another, as you could add RPs down the road without worrying about going through the remove/add/remove/add dance.


For the record, there are people have been doing it this way for decades...not just post-41F.
 
I'd say flexibility in doing what you want with it, mainly regarding adding RPs specific to each item.

Avoiding prints & photos is another, as you could add RPs down the road without worrying about going through the remove/add/remove/add dance.


For the record, there are people have been doing it this way for decades...not just post-41F.
If I had as much NFA stuff as you do coming up with another trust name would be as stressful as being asked to create a new user name and password. Serialize It I guess.

Seriously, are you aware of anyone being asked by ATF to defend their trust or experiencing trouble with legal challenges in an estate? Back when I had money I couldn't get past the comments from trust attorneys about the need to have a very state specific trust. I assumed that was fear mongering to justify the $800-1200 they wanted to assemble the boiler plate vs the free trust NFA dealers will give you. But then couldn't be comfortable with the free one thinking it might be false economy. Now it's just academic interest until I get a job to pay for toys.
 
If I had as much NFA stuff as you do coming up with another trust name would be as stressful as being asked to create a new user name and password. Serialize It I guess.
SilencerShop offers a service called something like Single Shot trusts. I believe it uses the serial number for the trust name? It would be real simple to do.

Another option is every one of them could actually have the same name. Nothing that would stop that from being legal. Think about how many "In God We" trusts are out there, or Smith NFA Trust, or any other fill-in-the-blank formatting that some of the big online trust retailers use.

As far as anybody getting nit-picked on them, I've never heard the first story. I was assume there would be extenuating circumstances that would cause a deep dive into the legal documents. Most of them time things just flow along with no one the wiser.
 
I wouldn't let wait times dictate how you file. I started doing mine via a trust and find it easier to continue the same way, keeping all of my NFA items on a single trust. I also have no interest in adding additional RP, so my situation is easy in the regard.

When I filed in August, Trusts were taking a year. I just got mine approved in 6mo.
 
How hard is it to file a trust by yourself vs the layer route? And, does it worth it?
 
How hard is it to file a trust by yourself vs the layer route? And, does it worth it?
I created my own starting with a template based application called willmaker plus. I’m sure that there are situations addressed by a professionally written trust relative to firearms that I have overlooked, but none that I think are material.
 
I created my own starting with a template based application called willmaker plus. I’m sure that there are situations addressed by a professionally written trust relative to firearms that I have overlooked, but none that I think are material.
I can tell you that if you took my "NFA Trust", and deleted everything that mentions NFA and/or Firearms...absolutely nothing would change. It's all covered by statutes and regulations. The lawyer added it into the trust. No idea where he got his template from.

That's one reason I've said multiple times there's no such thing as a gun trust. There are simply trusts that happen to hold guns as property.
 
One advantage of the Trust is the assets remain private and are not part of your Estate when your reach your expiration date.
 
For those with a trust....and I'm just throwing it out there... if you have a page that removes all RP but your self...might consider slipping that in to your turst when you send it. Once you get the stamp...remove that said page and stow it away for a rainy day..

again just saying.
 
For those with a trust....and I'm just throwing it out there... if you have a page that removes all RP but your self...might consider slipping that in to your turst when you send it. Once you get the stamp...remove that said page and stow it away for a rainy day..

again just saying.
I've seen that mentioned multiple times on various sites...and I'll advise against it.

It leaves you with a broken paper trail. Odds are it'll never cause an issue, but the potential is there for some kind of charge. Illegal possession, perjury, who knows what it would be.

I'd rather remove and add back, over and over again...or use multiple trusts. (Even if each one is named the same ;))
 
I've seen that mentioned multiple times on various sites...and I'll advise against it.

It leaves you with a broken paper trail. Odds are it'll never cause an issue, but the potential is there for some kind of charge. Illegal possession, perjury, who knows what it would be.

I'd rather remove and add back, over and over again...or use multiple trusts. (Even if each one is named the same ;))
The ATF would think it's just once change...again if one did this. I agree it's skirting the law but having 10 trust for 10 items just seems a lot of up keep.
 
The ATF would think it's just once change...again if one did this. I agree it's skirting the law but having 10 trust for 10 items just seems a lot of up keep.
Again, very small odds anything happens...but let's play "what if?"

1. You have a trust with three NFA items and multiple RPs.
2. You remove all the RPs to buy NFA item #4 by using the Amendment.
3. Stamp #4 is approved and you tear up/hide the Amendment.
4. RP #2 gets into some legal trouble, and somebody that has it out for him contacts the ATF to say he's in illegal possession of an NFA item.
5. Prosecuting attorney contacts NFA Division to confirm proper registration.
6. The copy of the trust they have only shows RP #1.
7. The F4 only lists RP#1.
8. You have a trust that doesn't show RP #2 being added with a date that's after the approval of stamp #4.
9. RP #2 has a potential 10-year prison sentence and/or up to a $250,000 fine coming his way.

I don't see removing and adding RPs back to be skirting the law. You're playing by the rules given to you. They're approving all kinds of stamps these days for trusts with a "as of this date only XX is an RP" Amendment.

Remove and add back. Almost as simple as tearing up the Amendment, as you could keep the forms around and just sign & date copies as needed. Or use multiple trusts. Name them by SN like the SS single shot trust program.

Just don't leave yourself with a broken paper trail.
 
Again, very small odds anything happens...but let's play "what if?"

1. You have a trust with three NFA items and multiple RPs.
2. You remove all the RPs to buy NFA item #4 by using the Amendment.
3. Stamp #4 is approved and you tear up/hide the Amendment.
4. RP #2 gets into some legal trouble, and somebody that has it out for him contacts the ATF to say he's in illegal possession of an NFA item.
5. Prosecuting attorney contacts NFA Division to confirm proper registration.
6. The copy of the trust they have only shows RP #1.
7. The F4 only lists RP#1.
8. You have a trust that doesn't show RP #2 being added with a date that's after the approval of stamp #4.
9. RP #2 has a potential 10-year prison sentence and/or up to a $250,000 fine coming his way.


Just don't leave yourself with a broken paper trail.

I happen to know a guy that does this. The date in in the end is worth it. I think he print out the "new amendment" with the new date, same day or the day after he got his tax stamp.
 
I happen to know a guy that does this. The date in in the end is worth it. I think he print out the "new amendment" with the new date, same day or the day after he got his tax stamp.
Yep. The RPs being listed on the F1/F4 makes it a little more obvious to anybody checking.

It's just not a lot of extra effort to have a proper paper trail.
 
In NC, is there any requirement that add/remove trustee forms are notarized, or is just the signature of the primary owner/settlor/whatever it's called sufficient?
Does the new trustee have to sign?
Is any particular verbiage required, other than saying which trust, when and who is added, and signed and dated?

Thanks
 
I wouldn't let wait times dictate how you file. I started doing mine via a trust and find it easier to continue the same way, keeping all of my NFA items on a single trust. I also have no interest in adding additional RP, so my situation is easy in the regard.

When I filed in August, Trusts were taking a year. I just got mine approved in 6mo.
That makes my day, I bought 3 cans in November on a single person trust :)
 
SO, to sell an NFA item on a trust, you could just add me, and then remove yourself?!?!?!?

Anyone want to sell anything?
Im buying....
That's a novel idea. Basically do a single shot trust, sell the trust and by extension the NFA item, and no one ever pays tax more than 1 time per item.

Sounds too good to be true (legal).
 
That's a novel idea. Basically do a single shot trust, sell the trust and by extension the NFA item, and no one ever pays tax more than 1 time per item.

Sounds too good to be true (legal).
I’ve been looking for a seller thats willing to do this, and they aren’t to be found. It is not well understood and the risks are perceived to be significant.
 
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How does it work with the firearm inventory if, say, Dick’s buys Field and Stream?

What is state law about trust ownership and buying/selling a trust?

Surely this has come up before. I bet the ATF has a ruling on it somewhere.
 
How does it work with the firearm inventory if, say, Dick’s buys Field and Stream?

What is state law about trust ownership and buying/selling a trust?

Surely this has come up before. I bet the ATF has a ruling on it somewhere.

You would have a contract with consideration and one of the conditions to closing would be resignation as trustee and an executed power of attorney for the trust.

For God’s sake, nobody get the dumbass idea to ask ATF for their opinion!
 
I just did quite a bit of googling and I found several claims that the ATF had already ruled it was tax evasion but I couldn't fine anything from the ATF that said that. Lots of people saying it should be fine, but nobody willing to be a test case :)

The best point was probably that if it was iron-clad legal to do this, SilencerShop would be selling trusts (with silencers) same day after creating the single shot trusts and transferring the can to it while it was in their inventory. So if this is workable, you'd be able to go buy one over the counter.
 
I just did quite a bit of googling and I found several claims that the ATF had already ruled it was tax evasion but I couldn't fine anything from the ATF that said that. Lots of people saying it should be fine, but nobody willing to be a test case :)

The best point was probably that if it was iron-clad legal to do this, SilencerShop would be selling trusts (with silencers) same day after creating the single shot trusts and transferring the can to it while it was in their inventory. So if this is workable, you'd be able to go buy one over the counter.
Silencershop or any FFL couldn't do this. They would have to transfer the item from themselves to the trust on a F4 since the trust doesn't hold an FFL. I guess in theory they could do it and then add the cost of the stamp to the purchase but they'd still have to wait the 6-9mo for the form to process.

The tax evasion is a little interesting because it's not so much the tax as it is the wait that were trying to "evade". The elimination of tax is just a bonus.
 
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How hard is it to file a trust by yourself vs the layer route? And, does it worth it?

I know folks do it both ways. I look at it like buying discount parachutes.
 
Silencershop or any FFL couldn't do this. They would have to transfer the item from themselves to the trust on a F4 since the trust doesn't hold an FFL. I guess in theory they could do it and then add the cost of the stamp to the purchase but they'd still have to wait the 6-9mo for the form to process.

The tax evasion is a little interesting because it's not so much the tax as it is the wait that were trying to "evade". The elimination of tax is just a bonus.
Yes, exactly. They order 500 22 cans, put them in 500 trusts (paying 200 each) all owned by some lawyer.
Once they make it through the process, they sell the trust over the counter. Think they'd sell better if you could take home your suppressor (I mean trust) the same day?
That wouldn't even evade the first round of taxes between SilencerShop and the initial buyer - the same $200 would be paid. It would set a terrible precedent that would make it hard to enforce it on the next transfer (I mean "sale of trust" :) ) though.
 
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