Offset Sights

SPM

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Alright everyone....I have, up until last year, almost always been an iron sights shooter on pretty much all my rifles save for bolt guns.

Anyways, setting up a rifle for practical purposes. It's got an ACOG up top, but I also know a lot of folks also run irons or a reflex on a 45 degree offset for quicker target acquisition at close range. I considered cowitnessing some pop up BUSs...but the eye relief that works best for me on the ACOG isn't going to allow for the rear sight to mount with enough clearance to fully pop up.

I'm a getting-older USN submarine sailor- we only had irons on M16A2s when I was in, so I don't have a lot of experience with setting up a modern tactical rifle system.

Looking for perspectives, opinions, and advice. I want it to be useful and robust - that could stand up to abuse if it needed to.

Thanks.
 
I have a NV scope setup for coyotes and i have backup offset Mbus pros to shoot if its daylight or scope dies because there is NO space on the rail for anything else. They do well for that....
 
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I think you have a few option. If you’re just looking to have some back up sights then I wouldn’t worry about them being able to flip up with the the ACOG where you want it. Use a QD mount for the ACOG and in the event you need the sights pop off the ACOG, flip up the sights and go to work.

you could also get the RMR mount they make that puts it on top of the ACOG, although that sits a little too tall for my liking.

Off set BUIS or an optic in a 45 degree mount will be your quickest transition. Simply roll the rifle inboard a little bit and the optic/sights should fall right into place. With a little practice it can be pretty quick.
 
Here is the deal of fact.
  • Long sight radius = more accurate & slower
  • 45 offset sights are used because the target is SO CLOSE you need to use them, over the optic
  • So adding up bullet point 1+2 = the "correct answer"
Now at what distance does the optic not work at?

This is the max range you need to offset iron sights at, right?

Other options.
  1. Bindon Aiming Concept

  2. Other options
 
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Are you set on the ACOG?

LVPOs are pretty compelling now. On 1x, basically a dot (that works in light with no battery since there is a reticle), and when you need to reach out you just up the magnification. There are lots of good 1-4, 1-6 options, and for the price of an ACOG, you can get an outstanding Trijicon 1-8. Way more capable than a fixed ACOG.

Just my opinion - worth what you paid for it.
 
Are you set on the ACOG?

LVPOs are pretty compelling now. On 1x, basically a dot (that works in light with no battery since there is a reticle), and when you need to reach out you just up the magnification. There are lots of good 1-4, 1-6 options, and for the price of an ACOG, you can get an outstanding Trijicon 1-8. Way more capable than a fixed ACOG.

Just my opinion - worth what you paid for it.

The argument is, the situation is SO FAST even going from 6x to 1x is just too slow.

I say point shooting is the "fastest" just look down the handguard and GO
 
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I have a set of these on my primary AR that has a 1-6x scope on it, which usually stays around 4x which works well for a known distance on my property (back porch to clearing where coyotes or other creatures are known to appear).
Screenshot_20200811-205415.png

They are zeroed at 25yrds. If I am in/around my house, I'm likely starting off with the offset sights over the optic.
 
I have a set of these on my primary AR that has a 1-6x scope on it, which usually stays around 4x which works well for a known distance on my property (back porch to clearing where coyotes or other creatures are known to appear).
View attachment 237622

They are zeroed at 25yrds. If I am in/around my house, I'm likely starting off with the offset sights over the optic.

I have placed sights like this at the same distance from my eye as my handguns.

Rear & front sight = to my pistol.
 
The argument is, the situation is SO FAST even going from 6x to 1x is just too slow.

I say point shooting is the "fastest" just look down the handguard and GO

In trying to decide, I have rotated the rifle 45 degrees and looked down the straight edged corner of the rail and cognitively, my brain tells me that ought to work for the kinds of shots the are simply too close for acquiring in the optic, but i wasn't certain.
 
In trying to decide, I have rotated the rifle 45 degrees and looked down the straight edged corner of the rail and cognitively, my brain tells me that ought to work for the kinds of shots the are simply too close for acquiring in the optic, but i wasn't certain.

1000% correct
 
Just my opinion:
Ditch the Acog for a quality LPVO, or a quality red dot with flip-up backup sights.

Too many better more flexible options nowadays than an Acog.
 
I have a set of these on my primary AR that has a 1-6x scope on it, which usually stays around 4x which works well for a known distance on my property (back porch to clearing where coyotes or other creatures are known to appear).
View attachment 237622

They are zeroed at 25yrds. If I am in/around my house, I'm likely starting off with the offset sights over the optic.
I’ve got a set of those on a rifle and just like @JBoyette I have them set out on the hand guard at the same distance my handgun irons would be.
 
I think the ACOG is more flexible then a LPVO. For 90% of people's uses


I disagree. One is fixed, and one is variable. One is more flexible by its very design and nature.
One can be 1x or magnified. One can only be magnified.

Maybe I’m just the lucky 10%?
 
I disagree. One is fixed, and one is variable. One is more flexible by its very design and nature.
One can be 1x or magnified. One can only be magnified.

Maybe I’m just the lucky 10%?

The main reasons I went with the ACOG was range estimation is ridiculously easy without having to do math in your head (at least for man sized targets), a fixed 4 power is not something unmanageable at 100 to 500 meters, and the dual illumination feature of the optic.
 
I had a set of offset irons on my old duty AR, I took them off after I found target acquisition was faster just using the side of the rail instead at any distance where the offsets would be used.

That's certainly on the plate for the next range trip before I buy anything additional.
 
That's certainly on the plate for the next range trip before I buy anything additional.

I do think the offset's look cool, albeit a bit "tacti-cool", but still. I've practiced a bit with no sights on handguns, so it was easier to just look down the rail rather than look at sights. My eyes wanted to line them up, even though I wanted to just use the front sight. Besides, at the sort of distance we're talking about, if someone can't just point and shoot on target, they shouldn't be using a weapon IMHO.

Give it a shot, it may feel weird at first, but it's pretty natural once you try it out.
 
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A QD mount will fix the problem.

Are off set sights really use full? I have no experience. Seams like it would be hard to shoot at any real distance.
 
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I think with the price of (new) good offset sights, you could spend a little more and get a holosun “rmr” and run it in the offset position. I’ve tried the magpul offsets but didn’t really care for them. Good luck op.
 
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I'd personally much prefer the irons on top, co-witnessed with an appropriate optic. I've found that to work very well.
 
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I'd personally much prefer the irons on top, co-witnessed with an appropriate optic. I've found that to work very well.
That's how I have the sights on my Scorpion, cowitnessed with the red dot.

My problem is the eye relief on the ACOG doesn't leave enough pic rail for the rear sight.
 
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That's how I have the sights on my Scorpion, cowitnessed with the red dot.

My problem is the eye relief on the ACOG doesn't leave enough pic rail for the rear sight.
LaRue makes a mount that will bring the RCO rearward so you can fit a BUIS behind it.
dea1475ed8b7f0f09b4499ef6f5a4681.jpg


Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk
 
I'm going to revive an old thread rather than start a new one. I have a gamer AR that I use for a 2-gun match. The match for a while was all close in shots, so I was going to just do a holosun setup, and use my LPVO for a 3-gun match that didn't have any close in shots (due to range rules). Both of these matches now have close (5-10) and long (90-200) yard shots (partially due to @Gnash.Hyena at CCGCI)

I thought about putting a magnifier on the holosun setup, but the zero set for 20 yards or so was crazy off after 50 yards. I suppose I could have zeroed it for the longer distance, and just do 'aim for top of head' for the close up, but.. I think too much.

The practical option is to use my LPVO as @NKD says (it has illuminated reticle) at 1-power for the close in stuff- and it'll likely work.

But what I'm thinking now is I go the next level gamer and put my RMR on an offset along with the LPVO.

Which finally gets to my question- for some reason I have a Daniel Defense 1 o'clock offset. I put my RDS on it... and it doesn't fricking line up over the bore. It would be off crazy windage-wise. It likely doesn't matter for close up stuff, but.. what the hell is this thing for? I've had some cheapo 45-degree offset irons that line up perfectly with the bore. 1 o'clock is 30 degrees, but it's really 60 degrees from my top rail. If I had a side-rail it would be 30, but I still don't think it would line up over the bore. Say I ignore windage- I'm still rotating the gun 60 degrees to use it. I must be missing a clue, because reading reviews, people say it works great, so they either ignore the windage issue, or.. their AR is different than mine. The one video I found had the guy really awkwardly trying to use the 1 o'clock and basically had to rotate the gun to an awkward angle.

What am I missing?
 
I'm going to revive an old thread rather than start a new one. I have a gamer AR that I use for a 2-gun match. The match for a while was all close in shots, so I was going to just do a holosun setup, and use my LPVO for a 3-gun match that didn't have any close in shots (due to range rules). Both of these matches now have close (5-10) and long (90-200) yard shots (partially due to @Gnash.Hyena at CCGCI)

I thought about putting a magnifier on the holosun setup, but the zero set for 20 yards or so was crazy off after 50 yards. I suppose I could have zeroed it for the longer distance, and just do 'aim for top of head' for the close up, but.. I think too much.

The practical option is to use my LPVO as @NKD says (it has illuminated reticle) at 1-power for the close in stuff- and it'll likely work.

But what I'm thinking now is I go the next level gamer and put my RMR on an offset along with the LPVO.

Which finally gets to my question- for some reason I have a Daniel Defense 1 o'clock offset. I put my RDS on it... and it doesn't fricking line up over the bore. It would be off crazy windage-wise. It likely doesn't matter for close up stuff, but.. what the hell is this thing for? I've had some cheapo 45-degree offset irons that line up perfectly with the bore. 1 o'clock is 30 degrees, but it's really 60 degrees from my top rail. If I had a side-rail it would be 30, but I still don't think it would line up over the bore. Say I ignore windage- I'm still rotating the gun 60 degrees to use it. I must be missing a clue, because reading reviews, people say it works great, so they either ignore the windage issue, or.. their AR is different than mine. The one video I found had the guy really awkwardly trying to use the 1 o'clock and basically had to rotate the gun to an awkward angle.

What am I missing?

The t-Rex arms mount is 30deg but is taller I believe to match the same height over bore as your main optic (optional spacers iirc). No help on the misalignment though unless you have an unusual height over bore rail.
 
Seems to me that if a threat is too close to use your LPVO if at mid to high power you're not going to have time to use it. I've used 45° irons and liked them. Shooting at 45° is surprisingly natural. I shouldn't say this without trying it (that's never stopped me before, lol) but wouldn't just sighting down the rail require a cheek weld readjustment? The thing I liked about the offset sights was they were approximately the same hight as my optic, so just rolling the gun over gave me a decent sight picture.

Here's another option. It really shines when rail space is a premium which is probably not the case here but it is lighter than irons. I had one of these on an offset mount on my 9mm AR pistol that was wearing a red dot on top. Worked good for me.


Delta_2.0_2048x.jpg
 
@Sasquatch I recommend that you swap zeros. A 50 yard zero is IME just plain better than a 20/25 yard zero. Then just learn your hold overs.

I shot the match you are referencing with a 2.26 height red dot zerod at 50 and once you know where to hold up close the mechanical offset really isn't that bad.

Ps I hope to meet you at the next match!
 
I feel like I should substantiate my claim a little more. While a 20 yard zero will be close within 20 yards, as you are aware, POA/poi it's going to be really off until the zero reconverges. A 50/200 yard zero is a little more off up close but from 0-300 has a relatively tight poa/poi, much less thinking necessary than a closer zero, in my opinion.

Offset sights are fine, but they can not replace getting good on and learning your primary sighting system. I think they should be viewed more as a backup to augment your primary optic, with minor exception given to Acogs.
 
I'm going to revive an old thread rather than start a new one. I have a gamer AR that I use for a 2-gun match. The match for a while was all close in shots, so I was going to just do a holosun setup, and use my LPVO for a 3-gun match that didn't have any close in shots (due to range rules). Both of these matches now have close (5-10) and long (90-200) yard shots (partially due to @Gnash.Hyena at CCGCI)

I thought about putting a magnifier on the holosun setup, but the zero set for 20 yards or so was crazy off after 50 yards. I suppose I could have zeroed it for the longer distance, and just do 'aim for top of head' for the close up, but.. I think too much.

The practical option is to use my LPVO as @NKD says (it has illuminated reticle) at 1-power for the close in stuff- and it'll likely work.

But what I'm thinking now is I go the next level gamer and put my RMR on an offset along with the LPVO.

Which finally gets to my question- for some reason I have a Daniel Defense 1 o'clock offset. I put my RDS on it... and it doesn't fricking line up over the bore. It would be off crazy windage-wise. It likely doesn't matter for close up stuff, but.. what the hell is this thing for? I've had some cheapo 45-degree offset irons that line up perfectly with the bore. 1 o'clock is 30 degrees, but it's really 60 degrees from my top rail. If I had a side-rail it would be 30, but I still don't think it would line up over the bore. Say I ignore windage- I'm still rotating the gun 60 degrees to use it. I must be missing a clue, because reading reviews, people say it works great, so they either ignore the windage issue, or.. their AR is different than mine. The one video I found had the guy really awkwardly trying to use the 1 o'clock and basically had to rotate the gun to an awkward angle.

What am I missing?

Are you using the DD mount horizontal off the top rail? or vertical? Mine's horizontal works awesome. Even with a LPVO, a dot will be faster for close shots.

I zero my LPVO at a true 200 and offset dot at 50. That way the hold over will alway be the same.
 
Are you using the DD mount horizontal off the top rail? or vertical? Mine's horizontal works awesome. Even with a LPVO, a dot will be faster for close shots.

I zero my LPVO at a true 200 and offset dot at 50. That way the hold over will alway be the same.

I'm doing it off the top rail- this LW build doesn't have any other rails, though I could probably get a piece of mlok... hmmm.

@Sasquatch I recommend that you swap zeros. A 50 yard zero is IME just plain better than a 20/25 yard zero. Then just learn your hold overs.

I shot the match you are referencing with a 2.26 height red dot zerod at 50 and once you know where to hold up close the mechanical offset really isn't that bad.

Ps I hope to meet you at the next match!

I'll try the 50 yard zero and the magnifier as I have a gun set up for it. I'll still probably play with the LPVO+RDS too.

Thanks for the suggestions.
 
I'm doing it off the top rail- this LW build doesn't have any other rails, though I could probably get a piece of mlok... hmmm.



I'll try the 50 yard zero and the magnifier as I have a gun set up for it. I'll still probably play with the LPVO+RDS too.

Thanks for the suggestions.


Try on the rail behind the scope. The base of the dot doesn't need to be perpendicular to the bore, only that the dot is above the bore. Sighting in a little more of a chore, but not that bad.

DD offset.jpg
 
Practice, just like indexing a draw from the holster. But it's pretty quick straight forward to tell when the dot is over the bore
 
Alright everyone....I have, up until last year, almost always been an iron sights shooter on pretty much all my rifles save for bolt guns.

Anyways, setting up a rifle for practical purposes. It's got an ACOG up top, but I also know a lot of folks also run irons or a reflex on a 45 degree offset for quicker target acquisition at close range. I considered cowitnessing some pop up BUSs...but the eye relief that works best for me on the ACOG isn't going to allow for the rear sight to mount with enough clearance to fully pop up.

I'm a getting-older USN submarine sailor- we only had irons on M16A2s when I was in, so I don't have a lot of experience with setting up a modern tactical rifle system.

Looking for perspectives, opinions, and advice. I want it to be useful and robust - that could stand up to abuse if it needed to.

Thanks.
I have an ACOG with a reflex mounted on top. I really like the setup. While you can use the ACOG up close without a reflex or irons if you really had to, it's way better to have them in my opinion as it's much easier to see. Whether you decide to go top mounted or canted, you can't go wrong with it. Also I'm pretty sure you can't co-witness irons through the ACOG even if you could flip them up due to the magnification.
I disagree. One is fixed, and one is variable. One is more flexible by its very design and nature.
One can be 1x or magnified. One can only be magnified.

Maybe I’m just the lucky 10%?
You're technically right but practically speaking I think there's more to it than that. From what I've seen, most people who use LPVO's are almost always either on 1x or the max setting. I hardly ever see anyone using the mid magnification settings. And since a lot of people also run canted reflex/irons with LPVO's anyway, having all of those extra settings becomes somewhat of a moot point. Not saying that the ACOG/reflex combo is way better. Just that LPVO's are not necessarily way better either from a practical standpoint. There are pros and cons to both. The main advantage with most LPVO's is that you can get more magnification than you can with most ACOG's. But the ACOG is a simpler system and is usually lighter weight. Both systems work well. It all depends on your preference and what works best for you.
 
Shooting at 45° is surprisingly natural. I shouldn't say this without trying it (that's never stopped me before, lol) but wouldn't just sighting down the rail require a cheek weld readjustment? The thing I liked about the offset sights was they were approximately the same hight as my optic, so just rolling the gun over gave me a decent sight picture.
Why you think homies been doing it so long?
iu





For a slightly different perspective...
More than once, late at night, I have left the comfortable confines of my climate controlled house to check out why the dog is going nuts or noises in the distance. On the way to the barn, I might bring up my rifle periodically to use the WML to light up dark areas or to look for predatory eyes reflecting in the dark. Then you discover, leaving the cool A/C and moving into the humid night air has formed condensation on the optics. Co-witnessing irons doesn't help because you still have to see through the optic, which you can't and won't be able to for a while, even if you wipe it off. It re-condenses on the cool glass until it warms up. So, offsets are definitely a consideration.

I'm playing with a very cheap set of offset irons, just to see if it's viable and so far I like it, except for some clearance issues on the rear. You mount the gun, if the optics are occluded, roll it over slightly, you're back in business.
For very close in shooting, I use the metal-on-meat method. Just sight over the gun and when metal covers meat...
It just takes a little practice to get the muscle memory/sight picture down.
 
You're technically right but practically speaking I think there's more to it than that. From what I've seen, most people who use LPVO's are almost always either on 1x or the max setting. I hardly ever see anyone using the mid magnification settings. And since a lot of people also run canted reflex/irons with LPVO's anyway, having all of those extra settings becomes somewhat of a moot point. Not saying that the ACOG/reflex combo is way better. Just that LPVO's are not necessarily way better either from a practical standpoint. There are pros and cons to both. The main advantage with most LPVO's is that you can get more magnification than you can with most ACOG's. But the ACOG is a simpler system and is usually lighter weight. Both systems work well. It all depends on your preference and what works best for you.

To each their own man.
 
The base of the dot doesn't need to be perpendicular to the bore, only that the dot is above the bore. Sighting in a little more of a chore, but not that bad.

Yep that's how it looks- thanks. And you can see if I was perpendicular to the sight it would not intersect the barrel, but really the charging handle. This is what is throwing me off- You're right- the dot doesn't need to be perpendicular to the base for it to project a dot- as long as it is over the barrel. But it means that elevation and windage don't work as designed- one MOA to the right isn't- it'll be something like 0.3 MOA right and .3 MOA 'up' (as an example).
 
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How do you know if you are canting the gun so that the dot isn't directly above the bore when shooting with the offset dot? What do you use as a reference?
By looking at it? I draw an imaginary line 'down' from the dot and it doesn't intersect the barrel. With the 45-degree irons I have, they are the same height and relative location over the barrel when canted and they are perpendicular.
 
Yep that's how it looks- thanks. And you can see if I was perpendicular to the sight it would not intersect the barrel, but really the charging handle. This is what is throwing me off- You're right- the dot doesn't need to be perpendicular to the base for it to project a dot- as long as it is over the barrel. But it means that elevation and windage don't work as designed- one MOA to the right isn't- it'll be something like 0.3 MOA right and .3 MOA 'up' (as an example).

... anyone want a Davidson Defense 1 o'clock offset mount basically unused for $20? I think they go for double that online.
 
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