Palmetto State Armory kicks customer off the range because he was shooting suppressed

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I was under the impression that the opposite is true - that you are required to have a at least a copy of your stamp(s) with your NFA items to show if the ATF requests it.
 
SCshooter57 said:
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I was under the impression that the opposite is true - that you are required to have a at least a copy of your stamp(s) with your NFA items to show if the ATF requests it.
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Yes and no. A couple random thoughts in no particular order.

1. You have to provide a copy to the ATF if asked…but nothing says you have to immediately do that on the spot. And it says nothing about an original.
2. While I’d completely disagree with it, a business could make it their policy…their range, their rules. I’d choose to not be a customer.
3. Lots of people will tell you that you only have to show it to the ATF, not LEO. That’s technically true, but NFA weapons are illegal in most states…with the exception being those properly registered. For example, in NC all six categories are considered Weapons of Mass Death and Destruction. So showing the forms may save you a ride downtown.

I’ve never shown mine to anybody for anything other than educational purposes. I do have PDFs of each one on my phone. I have paper copies in range bags, but don’t always have those with me.
 
Most folks have never seen the BATF&E Application to make and register a firearm, let alone the tax stamp.
When the range I use first opened up they insisted on looking at the paperwork, sure no problem, I showed them a PDF on the phone, counter man wanted to see the original, told him it is in my safe and never leaves the safe. Finally let it go. Shortly after they did not bother us anymore about the form.

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Moth said:
Chad Wylie (PSA big wig) is a standup guy and absolutely 100% level headed. He's on our side 100%. I have no doubt that the "we handled it" statement is spot on.
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One time I snapped a firing pin in half at the SC Steel Challenge. It was my PCC, and I did not have a replacement part. Luckily Chad was around. Ironically, he'd actually built the thing (when PSA sold Lead Star) and I'd bought it from PSA. He hooked me up with a brand new firing pin, gratis, and I finished the match. Got first place Master, which I found hilarious.

I'm a big fan of PSA. I have a dang thermal scope sitting on a complete PSA upper. Darn thing shoots so good, I see no reason to put it on a different rifle.
 
BigWaylon said:
Yes and no. A couple random thoughts in no particular order.

1. You have to provide a copy to the ATF if asked…but nothing says you have to immediately do that on the spot. And it says nothing about an original.
2. While I’d completely disagree with it, a business could make it their policy…their range, their rules. I’d choose to not be a customer.
3. Lots of people will tell you that you only have to show it to the ATF, not LEO. That’s technically true, but NFA weapons are illegal in most states…with the exception being those properly registered. For example, in NC all six categories are considered Weapons of Mass Death and Destruction. So showing the forms may save you a ride downtown.

I’ve never shown mine to anybody for anything other than educational purposes. I do have PDFs of each one on my phone. I have paper copies in range bags, but don’t always have those with me.
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A few years ago, when form 1s submitted through e-file were approved. The paperwork and stamp was sent as electronic file (can’t remember if it was a PDF, but at similar). I am sure you have several of these as well. I have several that I printed off, but technically the originals are not hard copies.


Edited to correct spelling error

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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Average Joe said:
A few years ago, when form 1s submitted through e-file were approved. The paperwork and stamp was sent as electronic file (can’t remember if it was a PDF, but at similar). I am sure you have several of these as well. I have several that I printed off, but technically the originals are not hard copies.


Edited to correct spelling error

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Exactly what I was thinking.
A few of my originals were just .pdf files.
 
Average Joe said:
A few years ago, when form 1s submitted through e-file were approved. The paperwork and stamp was sent as electronic file (can’t remember if it was a PDF, but at similar). I am sure you have several of these as well. I have several that I printed off, but technically the originals are not hard copies.


Edited to correct spelling error

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Correct. They were (and still are) PDFs.

When it comes to not laminating, I’m just talking about physical stamps, which are the only originals you would have.

I’d assume the ATF would be fine with any copy.
 
BigWaylon said:
Correct. They were (and still are) PDFs.

When it comes to not laminating, I’m just talking about physical stamps, which are the only originals you would have.

I’d assume the ATF would be fine with any copy.
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Ok I’ll ask. Why should you never laminate originals? Because it’s tougher to examine for authenticity if ever necessary?

I make scaled down copies of mine, laminate them, and keep them in my range bag. Laminating an original doesn’t make much sense but curious about the warning.
 
Jerzsubbie said:
Ok I’ll ask. Why should you never laminate originals? Because it’s tougher to examine for authenticity if ever necessary?

I make scaled down copies of mine, laminate them, and keep them in my range bag. Laminating an original doesn’t make much sense but curious about the warning.
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Correct. Somebody lost an NFA item over this. I wanna say it was machinegun, but can’t remember for sure. Odds of it happening are extremely low…but not zero.
 
BigWaylon said:
2. While I’d completely disagree with it, a business could make it their policy…their range, their rules. I’d choose to not be a customer.
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I probably told you before, but I ran into this once. I had just picked up my 590 AOW (before shockwaves hit the market) and the RSO asked to check my gear/ammo/etc to make sure it was compatible with their indoor range rules. no big deal, most indoor ranges did some version of that. He saw the AOW and said he needed to see my stamp. I asked why they thought they got to look at my tax paperwork, and he pointed to the sign clearly posted on the wall that said they reserved the right to verify NFA via stamps.
I grunted but realized it was their range and their rules that i didn't read carefully enough before i paid. Like I said, I had JUST picked it up and i still had the original tucked away in the case. When I started to pull it out, RSO said "good enough" and told me they only did that to scare off people (i'm from Detroit, remember, sawed off shotguns were not exactly rare) who didn't bother to know or follow laws, because they'd already had a number of problems with such people causing problems. They were already being watched by the ATF for various reasons, and figured it was just better to make sure all range users dotted the "i"s and crossed the "t"s.
RSO was a good guy, helped me out in their cleaning/repair room, had some good laughs, but he had to deal with what he had to deal with.
 
BigWaylon said:
Yes and no. A couple random thoughts in no particular order.

1. You have to provide a copy to the ATF if asked…but nothing says you have to immediately do that on the spot. And it says nothing about an original.
2. While I’d completely disagree with it, a business could make it their policy…their range, their rules. I’d choose to not be a customer.
3. Lots of people will tell you that you only have to show it to the ATF, not LEO. That’s technically true, but NFA weapons are illegal in most states…with the exception being those properly registered. For example, in NC all six categories are considered Weapons of Mass Death and Destruction. So showing the forms may save you a ride downtown.

I’ve never shown mine to anybody for anything other than educational purposes. I do have PDFs of each one on my phone. I have paper copies in range bags, but don’t always have those with me.
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I believe you 100%, but I'm certain that many LEO will not know this stuff.

When I was a federal LEO in the CG, I went through Federal LEO Training Center (FLETC) in Charleston, SC. I was there with CG, Border Patrol, DEA, etc., for several weeks (6 I think).

One day we got a two hour long classroom training about tax stamps and over and over again they said, "They have to have the original document in the case with the gun or suppressor, at all times. If they don't hand you the original, on the spot, they are a criminal. Arrest them."

Then, we had several days of hands on training where we were doing mock boardings on boats, with guns, and role players, and they drove this point home multiple times. "If they don't hand you the physical paper, right now, take them to jail."

That was about 15 years ago. Hopefully they have updated their training since then... But, you never know.
 
Alabamacoastie said:
I believe you 100%, but I'm certain that many LEO will not know this stuff.

When I was a federal LEO in the CG, I went through Federal LEO Training Center (FLETC) in Charleston, SC. I was there with CG, Border Patrol, DEA, etc., for several weeks (6 I think).

One day we got a two hour long classroom training about tax stamps and over and over again they said, "They have to have the original document in the case with the gun or suppressor, at all times. If they don't hand you the original, on the spot, they are a criminal. Arrest them."

Then, we had several days of hands on training where we were doing mock boardings on boats, with guns, and role players, and they drove this point home multiple times. "If they don't hand you the physical paper, right now, take them to jail."

That was about 15 years ago. Hopefully they have updated their training since then... But, you never know.
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Well, of course they are wrong. They are not "NRA Certified".
 
Point Blank in Matthews asked me for a tax stamp, I told them that I didn’t have it with me, they said okay but maybe bring it next time to avoid any hassle. Haven‘t been hassled since.

@BigWaylon I have no facts that dispute your story that someone lost an NFA item over not having an unlaminated original, but since ATF has no way to prove that the tax was not paid, since it was, I wonder how they justified taking the item.
 
JimB said:
Point Blank in Matthews asked me for a tax stamp, I told them that I didn’t have it with me, they said okay but maybe bring it next time to avoid any hassle. Haven‘t been hassled since.

@BigWaylon I have no facts that dispute your story that someone lost an NFA item over not having an unlaminated original, but since ATF has no way to prove that the tax was not paid, since it was, I wonder how they justified taking the item.
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I had a guy at Point Blank also ask me last November when my son and I went up there. Conversation went like this:

PB Guy: Rifles or pistols today so I can figure out where to put you?
Me: We are shooting mostly pistol calibers but will shoot some AR's suppressed, can we shoot on the pistol side?
PB Guy: Cool, no problem. A couple guys are shooting AR pistols out there and they are noisy. Go to lane 2(mostly pistol side). By the way, do you have your tax stamp with you?
Me: Nope, might have a picture on my phone though.
PB Guy: No worries. I like to ask but I don't need to see them.

We setup on the pistol side and half way in a dude broke out a maybe 6" AR pistol with a brake beside us. Unfortunately, I didn't notice as I was shooting. He rapid fired 6 rounds or so. My ears are literally still ringing. Pretty sure that is what finally brought on my tinnitus. He got booted quickly but I still haven't been back to an indoor range and don't plan to.
 
Jayne said:
Will I get a chance to win a covid truck?
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The way it works is you think you’re getting a chance to win a truck. But really it’s just a leather jacket.

When you finally get your prize in the mail it’s a cheap pocket knife. It breaks the first time you use it.

Meanwhile Wayne’s tart gets to spend the summer in an apartment you paid for.
 
Studentofthegun said:
The way it works is you think you’re getting a chance to win a truck. But really it’s just a leather jacket.

When you finally get your prize in the mail it’s a cheap pocket knife. It breaks the first time you use it.

Meanwhile Wayne’s tart gets to spend the summer in an apartment you paid for.
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Well, I wouldn't know what to do with his tart, so chicom pocket knife it is.
 
Studentofthegun said:
The way it works is you think you’re getting a chance to win a truck. But really it’s just a leather jacket.

When you finally get your prize in the mail it’s a cheap pocket knife. It breaks the first time you use it.

Meanwhile Wayne’s tart gets to spend the summer in an apartment you paid for.
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This reminds me of a gun show raffle I entered, forget which charity it was. Gave them $20, filled out the tickets and dropped them in expecting noting at all. There were a couple prizes, I didn’t even look. Anyway I get a call that I won and need to meet at this guys FFL in nowheresville to collect it. I get there and two of us are picking up our prizes, me I got a hot pink Beretta nano, the other guy was picking up a Sig MPX. I was a bit jealous of the guy, but it didn’t really bother me until I accidentally learned that he was the guy running the raffle at the show, that he’d put in a few dollars and just gotten lucky. Really I’ve got nothing to complain about, and maybe it was all above board, but the optics sucked and I’ve never given at a show since. I feel the same way about the NRA, fool me once, shame on me…
 
JimB said:
This reminds me of a gun show raffle I entered, forget which charity it was. Gave them $20, filled out the tickets and dropped them in expecting noting at all. There were a couple prizes, I didn’t even look. Anyway I get a call that I won and need to meet at this guys FFL in nowheresville to collect it. I get there and two of us are picking up our prizes, me I got a hot pink Beretta nano, the other guy was picking up a Sig MPX. I was a bit jealous of the guy, but it didn’t really bother me until I accidentally learned that he was the guy running the raffle at the show, that he’d put in a few dollars and just gotten lucky. Really I’ve got nothing to complain about, and maybe it was all above board, but the optics sucked and I’ve never given at a show since. I feel the same way about the NRA, fool me once, shame on me…
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that was a discussion recently had over at Michigan Gun Owners.
They suggested board members having wives buy raffle tickets and all... but since they have to publish real names of winners, and all the board members have their real names published due to it being a 501.c3... no matter what, it won't look great, even though it will all be honest.
 
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