Philosophical question

JT

JT

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I am trying to decide if I should install my Vortex Viper HST on my AR-10. If I do, I can no longer use my irons and the Viper doesn't currently have a QD mount.

So, before I buy a QD mount, I have to resolve the question as to whether I need a scope on the rifle for home defense and hunting. I'm not looking at long range shooting for either, so should I just zero the irons and not worry about the scope as a potential weak point?

My son says that I'm living in the past regarding scope reliability. Is he correct, or am I right to think that irons are substantially less subject to damage in the field?
 
In my opinion, I think a hunting rifle and a self defense rifle, in this case, should probably be set up differently.

Again, all opinion, but home defense is going to be between 1-20 yards (unless you live in a mansion). Within this distance irons are fine, but I would recommend a red dot for quicker target acquisition. It would be my thought that the close and quick range a home defense encounter would take place, you wouldn't be focusing on a cross reticle.
 
Irons are irons, they ARE "substantially less subject to damage in the field". But quality optics should be able to get banged around pretty good and hold zero.

I agree with our esteemed colleague @B00ger , an AR10 will work for both, but that's a lot of scope for a HD rifle. You can get a non-QD mount and add a reflex sight for up-close.
 
B00ger said:
In my opinion, I think a hunting rifle and a self defense rifle, in this case, should probably be set up differently...
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I peg my hunting and home defense ranges as both most likely within 100 yards, maybe 150. My AR-15 and PCC are both co-witnessed with RDS.
 
Chuckman said:
Irons are irons, they ARE "substantially less subject to damage in the field". But quality optics should be able to get banged around pretty good and hold zero.

I agree with our esteemed colleague @B00ger , an AR10 will work for both, but that's a lot of scope for a HD rifle. You can get a non-QD mount and add a reflex sight for up-close.
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Yeah, the HST was purchased for long range shooting. Maybe I should sell it and then decide between irons and another RDS.
 
JT said:
I peg my hunting and home defense ranges as both most likely within 100 yards, maybe 150. My AR-15 and PCC are both co-witnessed with RDS.
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Gotcha, then I think it has more to do with speed. I am not much of a rifle hunter, but in my experience you have a bit more time generally to line up a first shot. With a self defense situation I would think it would be too slow to get a good sight picture. If it were me, I would turn the AR10 into the dedicated meat rifle, and keep that AR15 and PCC as the bump in the night platforms.
 
JT said:
Yeah, the HST was purchased for long range shooting. Maybe I should sell it and then decide between irons and another RDS.
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The AR10 is great for a lot of things, but it IS a big-ass round for HD where, like @B00ger stated, is under 20 yards. Can you make it an everything rifle? Sure, you can keep the HST and do this:

upload_2020-4-6_11-5-12.jpeg

If it was me, given your range for hunting, I would sell the AR10 and get another AR15 because at the ranges you stated there are some quality rounds for hunting. Then, get either irons and RDS (I like both, but that's because I am just old school like that), or even consider something like a 1-4/1-6 LVPO.
 
Chuckman said:
The AR10 is great for a lot of things, but it IS a big-ass round for HD where, like @B00ger stated, is under 20 yards. Can you make it an everything rifle? Sure, you can keep the HST and do this:

View attachment 202208

If it was me, given your range for hunting, I would sell the AR10 and get another AR15 because at the ranges you stated there are some quality rounds for hunting. Then, get either irons and RDS (I like both, but that's because I am just old school like that), or even consider something like a 1-4/1-6 LVPO.
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Did...did you just tell him to sell a firearm? YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED...
 
I’m with Booger on the Red Dot especially at HD distances. A “shake to wake” type where you pick up the firearm, put the dot on your target and squeeze the trigger. You have a more forgiving eye relief and better field of view. All together a quicker response time will likely be seen with a Red Dot vs magnified optic at HD distances.

Inside a house you’ll see very close ranges where sight offset (sight over bore differences ... 2” to 2.25” on an average AR sight even slightly more with many magnified optics) will have to be taken into account or you POI will be that offset low of your POA ... basically an HD holdover for that say 20 to maybe 30 foot shot you might have to take down a hall.

ETA: you can also co-witness irons and Red Dots so if Murphy shows up in the Red Dot you can flip to irons without removing the bad Red Dot.
 
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Having never shot at anyone inside my home, or any home for that matter, I say in complete ignorance that I don’t see the point of optics of any sort on a hd weapon. They strike me as being faster for games and so we assume better for hd, but I don’t believe.
 
JimB said:
Having never shot at anyone inside my home, or any home for that matter, I say in complete ignorance that I don’t see the point of optics of any sort on a hd weapon. They strike me as being faster for games and so we assume better for hd, but I don’t believe.
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RDS (in either holographic or prism varieties) are excellent for HD/CQB. It has been well validated.
 
For the sake of clarifying this discussion:

1. When I say "home defense" in reference to the AR-10, I am NOT referring to inside the house. I have a 'home defense' radius of roughly 100-150 yds outside the house.

2. Do I need an AR-10 to defend my homestead? No. Do I choose to own one for hunting/defensive purposes? Yes. (In fairness, I have considered selling the AR-10 as I have a scoped bolt action in .308 as well - but that is a different topic.)
 
JT said:
I have to resolve the question as to whether I need a scope on the rifle for home defense and hunting
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JT said:
I peg my hunting and home defense ranges as both most likely within 100 yards, maybe 150.
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B00ger said:
I would turn the AR10 into the dedicated meat rifle
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NCFubar said:
’m with Booger on the Red Dot especially at HD distances.
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NCFubar said:
ETA: you can also co-witness irons and Red Dots so if Murphy shows up
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JT said:
Do I need an AR-10 to defend my homestead? No. Do I choose to own one for hunting/defensive purposes?
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I'm in with all the above. Don't let this turn into everybody having to "defend" their Opinion. As to Mr. Murphy and the red Dots and other reflex optics, I like what Evan Marshall told NYPD Special Response guys when they asked about the dot not coming on. Even said...If you're in a house or alley, If They Are In The Tube Press The Trigger.
We have tried that extensively here ...it works.
 
JimB said:
Having never shot at anyone inside my home, or any home for that matter, I say in complete ignorance that I don’t see the point of optics of any sort on a hd weapon. They strike me as being faster for games and so we assume better for hd, but I don’t believe.
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While I understand your logic, and believe it to be sound in isolation, I think in context (and assuming proper financial means) an RDS going to provide much greater utility.


I’ll take my RMR for example, in my hallway of ~10-15ft, under stress even if I get the body inside the glass, it gonna be a hit. At least you have some training instinct that occurs. Obviously everyone can and should train point/instinctive shooting as well, but that will cost as much in ammo differential to hone as it would to buy the optic for most folks. So let’s call that a wash.

where the sight comes in is really for SHTF type scenarios where rules of engagement are dictated by you only. And in that case, when taking on less risk, you will expand the defense perimeter of your house and RDS will greatly help under stress (theres military studies to demonstrate this, not going to go dog for them but I believe one I read was regarding eotech).

so the logical argument is that you can do anything with a RDS that you can do without it , but there’s more you can do and practical skill increases that can be had by having one. Therefore it only serves to provide more function with an RDS, at no sacrifice other than cost.
 
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I have acogs on a couple rifles, aimpoint pros on a couple others, even a Trijicon MRO on one, then 3 or 4 burris FF3’s on pistols, so I’m reasonably familiar with the technology and find it useful, just generally at ranges greater than 30’. Could just be a practice thing, and need to get on a timer to really be a little more objective.
 
JimB said:
I have acogs on a couple rifles, aimpoint pros on a couple others, even a Trijicon MRO on one, then 3 or 4 burris FF3’s on pistols, so I’m reasonably familiar with the technology and find it useful, just generally at ranges greater than 30’. Could just be a practice thing, and need to get on a timer to really be a little more objective.
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Jim we have done a good deal of work here on the handgun end of this discussion. SO FAR...I have not seen anybody within your 30 foot guideline be faster or more accurate with an optic. @Stick Man is asfast as any that have been through here..any. He uses a Glock with the optic and one without. Inside 10 yards he's as good either way. He is however the exception. I think he will say inside 10 yards there is very little advantage.
As I said, we have done a good deal of comparisons here in close quarters. All that and just this, I don't have an optic on a handgun, but I DO on AR pistol and longer weapons systems. Make of that what you will....I like your 30 foot guideline. It'll usually cover everything you do.
 
Inside 10 yrds for me, optic is no faster at all. It really shines when the distances grow, that's for sure. But for me now, I'm not shooting my RMR'd Glock at all, I've completely stopped using it. Ever since I started wearing progressive lens glasses, the lens really screw with my shooting with the optic. I can take them off, put some shooting glasses on, and bang, back to getting great hits and fast. But, I wear my glasses all the time now, and so being I believe in training how you walk around most all the time, the optic'd Glock gets no more love, lol. It sucks too because I invested a lot of money and TIME getting good with that thing.
 
ripv2 said:
I'm betting not many would want to tango with you inside of 10yrds with even a pencil close by.
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Lol, nah man, I'm really just a pussy cat. Kelly referenced a saying from the old road house movie about me one time. She said "your always so nice, until it's time not to be nice."
And then she added, "then you get destructive", lol.
 
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