Picking a H&R retro M16A1

Timfoilhat

Timfoilhat

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I've been eyeballing an H&R M16A1 in general. The "604" is cool because it's got slab side good looks. There's other models as well and I really don't know the difference.
I do know I'd prefer the modern 1/7 twist barrel just to keep it a little more versatile since I prefer heavier ammo.
I'm not sure what to make of the iron sights. It seems like the A2 versions have all the adjustability at the rear, as opposed to just windage on the A1.

What would you get, and why?
 
Was issued both over my time in. A1 has the best 300m in field sights. A2 is more of a target rifle (as designed for) and long range. I would want a A1 with a 1:12 twist. Already have A2, A2 HBAR and A4 clones with 1:7. As USMC6094 stated the weight of the A1 is the reason it was adopted to begin with. Lightweight and you can carry lots of ammo.
 
Good feedback. I'm now leaning toward the 1/12 twist based upon the responses. Definitely would be cheaper to feed.
 
Combat Diver said:
1965-90s? I'll say the 1:14 was very short lived (original M16 twist)
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I thought the issue with tracers not stabilizing in the early M16 caused them to change the 1/12 twist barrels to 1/7, but I must have mistaken that time line and they went from the 1/14 to the 1/12 to correct the tracer issue.
 
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Tarowah said:
I thought the issue with tracers not stabilizing in the early M16 caused them to change the 1/12 twist barrels to 1/7, but I must have mistaken that time line and they went from the 1/14 to the 1/12 to correct the tracer issue.
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For 1:12 M196 red tipped tracers are used.
For 1:7 M856 orange tipped tracers are used.
Faster twist for the 1:7 was to standardize for the SS109 bullet of the the M855 ball in the M249/M16A2 in the mid 80s and longer tracer.
New M855A1 EPR Ball round (two metal tipped) with the M856A1 orange/red tipped tracer
M995 AP has a black tip
 
What's always piqued my curiosity is why they went that fast with the twist rate.
Our varmint rifles in 22-250, .222 and 223 etc. were all mostly 1:14. And that was with 40-60-something grain bullets.
Ya didn't need to get into the faster twists unless ya went with somethin full retard like 80-90gr JLKs and such.
But that was with the 250's. Nobody really wanted a faster twist 223.
I guess my point being that ya don't really need a fast twist to stabilize 62gr pills. And the 77s or whatever prolly don't really need 1:7.
I wonder what the thinking was? 🧐
 
It will work fine with 55.

I think the favor for a slower twist with M193 would be to leave the bullet on the verge of stability so it fragments more readily.

I favor 1/7 so I can shoot heavy if I want to, but I could see why you’d go 1/12.
 
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HawgBonz said:
What's always piqued my curiosity is why they went that fast with the twist rate.
Our varmint rifles in 22-250, .222 and 223 etc. were all mostly 1:14. And that was with 40-60-something grain bullets.
Ya didn't need to get into the faster twists unless ya went with somethin full retard like 80-90gr JLKs and such.
But that was with the 250's. Nobody really wanted a faster twist 223.
I guess my point being that ya don't really need a fast twist to stabilize 62gr pills. And the 77s or whatever prolly don't really need 1:7.
I wonder what the thinking was? 🧐
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My understanding was with the 1:14 55 gr FMJ was barely stable. Add the longer M193 tracer with more bearing surface for 1:12
During the devolvement of the M249 SAW the bullet chosen was the FN SS109 63 gr as it had a requirement to penetrate a M1 steel helmet at 800m. Also the M16E2 PIP was going on and they standardized on the 1:7. The PIP was looking at the 1:9 I believe.
Later when the Mk12 SPR was developed we wanted longer range performance and settled on the 75/77gr OTM which met our needs.

I've got ARs with 1:14, 1:7, 1:6 and 1:5 .223 Wylde/5.56mm chambers. Last two experimental very fast for 80-105 gr .224 pills. I found that a 16" 1:9 .223 barrel doesn't stabilize BH Mk262 77 gr OTM

CD
 
Combat Diver said:
My understanding was with the 1:14 55 gr FMJ was barely stable. Add the longer M193 tracer with more bearing surface for 1:12
During the devolvement of the M249 SAW the bullet chosen was the FN SS109 63 gr as it had a requirement to penetrate a M1 steel helmet at 800m. Also the M16E2 PIP was going on and they standardized on the 1:7. The PIP was looking at the 1:9 I believe.
Later when the Mk12 SPR was developed we wanted longer range performance and settled on the 75/77gr OTM which met our needs.

I've got ARs with 1:14, 1:7, 1:6 and 1:5 .223 Wylde/5.56mm chambers. Last two experimental very fast for 80-105 gr .224 pills. I found that a 16" 1:9 .223 barrel doesn't stabilize BH Mk262 77 gr OTM

CD
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That's interesting. And actually ties in. IIRC the basis for "varmint" cartridges was to use the minimal twist necessary to stabilize whatever length bullet ya wanted to load. With the thinking being that "over spinning" was detrimental to fine accuracy and limited velocity in cases of trying to use light jackets for explosive effect. The "limited velocity" part didn't really come into play except with the bigger cases like 22-250 and up. The 223 class cases didn't have the volume to make it an issue. There was the theory was that any imperfection in the individual bullet would be amplified by the over spin. I can imagine there being more imperfection/imbalance when other metals are incorporated into the projectile.
This based on nothin "scientific". Just our little group messin around with our bolt guns in and amongst the "ballistic bloviating" way back then.
..The 2 main .224 varmint bullets I remember using were 50 and 60gr V-Max and almost always in a 14tw. With those occasional forays into somethin longer with a faster twist in an attempt to better buck wind. Which almost invariably ended up in just going with a 6mm-something-or-other and be-done-widdit. 😁
I could see the diminished case capacity from the longer bullet coupled with the shorter barrel affecting the 77gr performance and mebbe making some of that up in a faster twist. Velocity in the middish 2ks with those out of a 16"?

105gr 224 bullets, eh? Damn, that's a mini Javelin! :D
Sounds like that may have involved a custom reamer if ya wanted to keep those from really eatin into yer case volume.. Single load?

So the tl;dr may be that Uncle Sugar wants ARs that'll have the twist to deal with whatever loading a troop happens to get handed and hence, the seemingly over twisted barrels? 🤓

Apologies to the OP for the hijack.. The progression of AR twist rates has been somethin I've wondered about. 😎
 
Since I'm not sure what the fit/finish/feel of this stuff is I'm headed to PSA today to eyeball some of this stuff (hopefully). I have a bad reputation with money in my pocket catching fire, so we'll see how that goes. This project/purchse might get backburnered if something shiny catches my eye.
 
Timfoilhat said:
Since I'm not sure what the fit/finish/feel of this stuff is I'm headed to PSA today to eyeball some of this stuff (hopefully). I have a bad reputation with money in my pocket catching fire, so we'll see how that goes. This project/purchse might get backburnered if something shiny catches my eye.
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Waiting on report.
 
That was a total bust. No H&R uppers, lowers or full rifles. They did have a little DMPS with A1 handguards and a carbine stock. Wierd thing of no interest. They also had a dissy. And a Daniel Defense in bronze furniture.
 
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This sent me down quite the rabbit hole. I started looking at completed uppers to get that part purchased and squared away. I figured I could put it together with an existing lower for now, I'd just have to buy an A2 stock. stock spacer, stock screw, rifle buffer, rifle buffer tube... That got more expensive than a completed rifle quick. So I emptied my online shopping carts and now I'm stewing in frustration.
 
Timfoilhat said:
This sent me down quite the rabbit hole. I started looking at completed uppers to get that part purchased and squared away. I figured I could put it together with an existing lower for now, I'd just have to buy an A2 stock. stock spacer, stock screw, rifle buffer, rifle buffer tube... That got more expensive than a completed rifle quick. So I emptied my online shopping carts and now I'm stewing in frustration.
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Love my FN stock from this guy!
 
Tarowah said:
The 1/12 twist barrels with 55 grain ball ammo are devastating, it was short lived on active duty, but the combo was one of the best ever,
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try some 50gr-55gr Sierra Blitz bullets. some 45 grainers in a 1/12
like the old vintage versions (Retro), there's some old Sendra Lowers laying around, old
uppers (A1) thinking about assembling another XM177 clone, who knows..

-Snoopz
 
I got a H&R A1. I added a brownells 4x scope and gi bipod. My only regret is not getting the grey just to add a bit a variance.
 
BlueGecko said:
I got a H&R A1. I added a brownells 4x scope and gi bipod. My only regret is not getting the grey just to add a bit a variance.
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Have you shot it yet? What twist did you get?
I'd love pictures if you're OK to share online. Understand if not.
 
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73Chall said:
I thought Brownells had the old, retro-style rifles avail but, after checking , not seeing them there, now …
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They did, but typical Brownells, sales slumped and they dumped everything retro related right as retro was starting to get big (again).
FYI in late 2019 they purged their retro ar10 line and you could peice one together for $600. I regret not pricing together 10x. I think the retro ar15s went a year or two later
 
My cash caught fire. Colt AR15A4 came home today. It's not where I started, but here we are. I wanted a grey H&R M16A1, but no uppers available in grey. No matching lower without a fence. So that got me looking at M16A2 models. Then I figured if I'm compromising I might as well cross shop other brands. Then I found a Colt for $300 cheaper than the H&R and my money basically spent itself.
Anyway, the Colt is pretty cool. It's the 20" barrel, A2 stock, F marked front sight, A2 grip, flat top w/ carry handle looking model that clones the M16A4.
 
Timfoilhat said:
My cash caught fire. Colt AR15A4 came home today. It's not where I started, but here we are. I wanted a grey H&R M16A1, but no uppers available in grey. No matching lower without a fence. So that got me looking at M16A2 models. Then I figured if I'm compromising I might as well cross shop other brands. Then I found a Colt for $300 cheaper than the H&R and my money basically spent itself.
Anyway, the Colt is pretty cool. It's the 20" barrel, A2 stock, F marked front sight, A2 grip, flat top w/ carry handle looking model that clones the M16A4.
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Nice, I have one also. Very accurate.1000017535.jpg
 
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