Pistol caliber rifles as vehicle guns are pointless

drypowder

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Instead of a 9mm rifle, you would be better served by a rifle caliber pistol (e.g., AR pistol) or rifle.

What's the point of a pistol caliber rifle as a vehicle gun? Ammo compatibility with your handgun is about the only benefit I see. And mag compatibility for the Keltec Sub2k and the matching handgun. But this is vastly outweighed by rifle caliber ballistics.

Describe the situation where
  1. you are going to your rifle instead of your handgun, AND
  2. your 9mm rifle is a better choice than a 5.56 pistol/rifle
In most cases I can think of where I am going for a long gun in my vehicle over the handgun on my hip, I would prefer rifle caliber ballistics over pistol caliber ballistics.

Thus the thread title. And in the case of a pistol caliber rifle like the Sub2k, it is slow to get into action compared to an AR pistol.

Discuss.
 
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For the rifle I prefer something along the lines of an AK because I may want to shot THRU other cars etc. I also want the capacity they provide. If I have to break concealment and show I have a rifle to begin with, I am also going to show I dont play well with others. Pistols and pistol caliber carbines cannot pull this off.
 
YeahI see no point in them as a truck gun. If I need a rifle thenI need a rifle cartridge too!
 
PS90 and FN Five-seveN. Same ammo, just not the same mags. Just haven't yet figured out if it's a rifle or pistol caliber. :confused:

Oh yeah, I still need to buy that Five-seveN. :mad:
 
You have a lot of faith in a 5.56 considering it was meant to NOT kill the enemy. A pistol caliber carbine gives superior ballistics to the same bullet over the pistol and is easily accurate out past 100 yards. We don't live in west Texas so longer ranges aren't a factor.
 
You can suppress a 9mm 147g a lot better than 556 55g and like jr said 9mmis better for killing
 
Here's a dynamic I have never been able to quite get my mind wrapped around. I won't dispute the wisdom of carrying an AR/AK pistol or rifle in a vehicle, but help me out here...

I can exit a vehicle armed and concealed with a handgun. Not so much with an AR/AK pistol or rifle. Once you exit the vehicle with AR/AK pistol or rifle, it's sorta "on".
 
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Let's see, ballistics, ammo cost, and form factor. 9mm is cheaper to shoot so you could buy more ammo to use for training.

I don't give a fat baby's ass if a person deploys a rifle, PCC, shotty, lever action, or bazooka if they are well trained and will help eliminate the threat.
 
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You have a lot of faith in a 5.56 considering it was meant to NOT kill the enemy. A pistol caliber carbine gives superior ballistics to the same bullet over the pistol and is easily accurate out past 100 yards. We don't live in west Texas so longer ranges aren't a factor.

I can't see how "self defense" shooting someone 100 yards away would stand up in court.
 
Just for just thought, as I use a traditional caliber AR as a trucker...

Why not, if you carry a ccw pistol, you have ammo for it and at least that mag (why don't you have full capacity spares?) so cartridge compatibility is a reason. Mag compatibility is a reason. Sure a 9mm doesn't gain "that" much in a rifle length barrel but the longer sight radius and extra weight of a carbine or rifle over a pistol makes it generally more capable of delivering better results at longer ranges than a ccw pistol.

I run a truck "AR" in 5.56 that I dare you to find but a pcc that takes my ccw mags gives a longer sight radius that allows more precise shots than my ccw but still takes the same ammo simplifying things from a "on hand" perspective.
 
You have a lot of faith in a 5.56 considering it was meant to NOT kill the enemy.
I've seen plenty of video of shootings with 9mm - whatever it was designed for, it does not do a great job of incapacitating an enemy unless certain key areas are hit. 5.56 may not kill, but I don't see someone fighting through a 5.56 shot to the torso.

I am reminded of a home invasion where the woman emptied her revolver into a perp (presumably .38). She was out of rounds and the perp walked out of the house on his own two feet (because he didn't want to be shot anymore).
 
Don't know how anyone can argue that 9mm is more effective than 556. That's just a ludicrous argument. Even from an SBR you're talking about 4+ times the muzzle energy. I know I didn't sign the Hague Convention and pretty sure none of you did either. So, unless you just prefer less effective ammo, you're not running ball in your AR anymore than you are in your 9mm. So, that's also a BS argument...
 
9mm ballistics are better than 5.56 ballistics?

Form factor? What 9mm rifle is smaller than an AR pistol?
If we're going to argue the totality of a package, then yes a shorter barreled 9mm is going to perform better than a shorter 5.56. We should be discussing .45 and .300 too.

Also, what AR in 5.56 are you going to build that's 19 inches total and functions well? That's a 4" barrel with 32 rounds of 9MM available. Pmag for scale.
20170908_211555.jpg
 
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So, that's also a BS argument...
But it is Friday Nite... BS arguments rule!

That said, I lost my truck gun in a tragic encounter with a lake, which, somewhat miraculously, spared the truck itself. I was going just a tad over 5-1/2 mph when I swerved to miss the water and my TG slipped through the 9mm gap at the edge of the window, which was lowered for ventilation about .45" from the top weatherstripping.
 
I'd be a lot less concerned about where a potential miss would terminate for one. No point in killing people that aren't bad guys just because they happen to be in the vicinity of a bad guy.
 
I've been looking for a good reason to buy a PCC since the craze started and I still don't have one.
 
As you can see its a "mute point" for me............Bring more gun, bring more guns, its all good. When SHTF and people are shooting at you and you would need to pull out a "truck gun" IMO all bets are off. The more gun(s) the better. A pistol caliber carbine is far better than a handgun and a rifle caliber pistol is even better....and to be sure a battle rifle is best.

iw0JdbK.jpg



Get some......bitch.
 
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I'd be a lot less concerned about where a potential miss would terminate for one. No point in killing people that aren't bad guys just because they happen to be in the vicinity of a bad guy.

So your argument for a less effective weapon is collateral damage when you miss? ok... I guess stick to a pellet gun and a tazer then just in case...
 
If we're going to argue the totality of a package, then yes a shorter barreled 9mm is going to perform better than a shorter 5.56. We should be discussing .45 and .300 too.

Also, what AR in 5.56 are you going to build that's 19 inches total and functions well? That's a 4" barrel with 32 rounds of 9MM available. Pmag for scale.
View attachment 22249
so you essentially have a G19 with a buttstock and extended magazine?
 
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You can suppress a 9mm 147g a lot better than 556 55g and like jr said 9mmis better for killing

A 9mm is better for killing? I think the wound characteristics of each round would dispute that

The "5.56 is for wounding" is a horrible myth. We never trained to wound, everything was kill this, kill that. You don't shoot a target once generally, unless you're doing rifle quals. Otherwise it's getting "wounded" as many times as possible til it dies.

I guess after the military switched primarily to the M4/M16 platform we should've started calling eachother "steely eyed wounders" lol
 
So your argument for a less effective weapon is collateral damage when you miss? ok... I guess stick to a pellet gun and a tazer then just in case...

It's not my entire argument, it's one reason, and if you want to blow everything out of proportion and resort to hyperbole, then I'll assume you're good with killing innocent bystanders and we can call it even. ;)
 
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If we're going to argue the totality of a package, then yes a shorter barreled 9mm is going to perform better than a shorter 5.56.
View attachment 22249

LOL... No it doesn't... that's absurd... Unless you're that guy that wants to put 147gr +p JHP in your 9mm then compare it to 55gr ball crap ammo. Even then, you'll find the 556 round is packing more energy

Also, what AR in 5.56 are you going to build that's 19 inches total and functions well? That's a 4" barrel with 32 rounds of 9MM available. Pmag for scale.
View attachment 22249

What you have there isn't any more effective than my glock 34, ballistics-wise. Less actually, since the barrel is shorter and I can hold an extra round in my 34 mags...
 
It's not my entire argument, it's one reason, and if you want to blow everything out of proportion and resort to hyperbole, then I'll assume you're good with killing innocent bystanders and we can call it even. ;)

I'm going to bring to bear the most weapon I can effectively. Period. I'll do my part to the best of my ability, but I'm not going to disadvantage myself over a perception of lethality from the perspective of collateral damage.

Since you bring it up though, your 9mm is just as likely to overpenetrate as quality 556, more so in many instances.....



The argument doesn't hold water...

The over-penetration thing is myth. FBI tests have found the same results as the video I linked.
 
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A 9mm is better for killing? I think the wound characteristics of each round would dispute that

The "5.56 is for wounding" is a horrible myth. We never trained to wound, everything was kill this, kill that. You don't shoot a target once generally, unless you're doing rifle quals. Otherwise it's getting "wounded" as many times as possible til it dies.

I guess after the military switched primarily to the M4/M16 platform we should've started calling eachother "steely eyed wounders" lol
And you should have traded in your M4's and M249's for Keltec Sub2K's and DDLES AR-9's. Clearly the military has no idea what it's doing.
 
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If we're going to argue the totality of a package, then yes a shorter barreled 9mm is going to perform better than a shorter 5.56. We should be discussing .45 and .300 too.

Also, what AR in 5.56 are you going to build that's 19 inches total and functions well? That's a 4" barrel with 32 rounds of 9MM available. Pmag for scale.
View attachment 22249
Heh. I have to tip my hat on form factor. Clearly you can't get that compact in an AR pistol. That thing is sooooo cute!

I know I started this thread bashing pistol caliber vehicle guns, but can I get the build specs? :)
 
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LOL... No it doesn't... that's absurd... Unless you're that guy that wants to put 147gr +p JHP in your 9mm then compare it to 55gr ball crap ammo. Even then, you'll find the 556 round is packing more energy



What you have there isn't any more effective than my glock 34, ballistics-wise. Less actually, since the barrel is shorter and I can hold an extra round in my 34 mags...
Difference is your G34 is a pistol, not a long gun. If you can be as effective with some gangster ass extendo in your G34 as you would be with a long gun then you don't need a trunk gun, just a rap video you post on YouTube.

And if we're comparing ballistics without considerations for form factor, then don't be a pussy and deploy a Scar 17s in .308 or better yet, why not a big 50 Cal? Hell, buy a shitty ass pickup truck and mount something belt fed to the back and have a buddy ride with you standing back there in case shit gets super real.
 
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Heh. I have to tip my hat on form factor. Clearly you can't get that compact in an AR pistol. That thing is sooooo cute!

I know I started this thread bashing pistol caliber vehicle guns, but can I get the build specs? :)
Nope, go sit in the corner and think about what you've done!
 
...buy a shitty ass pickup truck and mount something belt fed to the back and have a buddy ride with you standing back there in case shit gets super real.

Now you're talking!

Shitty ass pickup truck - check

To Do List
Swing by Wally World. Get;
- buddy
- belt fed.
 
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For a get home gun on foot a Sub2k is way lighter and easier to conceal than an AR pistol, and still deployable in 2-3 seconds. And when you do, you have a full length stock.

Muzzle energy from a .223 out of a 8" barrel is in the 700s, with the right ammo, a 9mm out of a 16" barrel is only about 100 ft/lb less, and is a larger caliber that is designed to expand at that velocity. Will a .223/.556 even fragment at 2400 fps?

A .223 out of a pistol may top a hot 9mm out of a carbine a little, but the icing on the cake for me is the huge difference in muzzle blast the shooter will have to contend with. IMO a get home gun is not an offensive weapon but a quick engagement/disengagement tool, and doesn't need to be more than combat accurate out to 100-150 yards at most.
 
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Who says I can only have one long gun in my TruckVault? In addition to a PCC there might be an AR or a bolt gun or shotgun ... or any combo of them. Depends on what I am thinking about that day ... and like MadMardigan said anything past a 100 yards (or even 50) is hard to call self defense.
 
Difference is your G34 is a pistol, not a long gun. If you can be as effective with some gangster ass extendo in your G34 as you would be with a long gun then you don't need a trunk gun, just a rap video you post on YouTube.

And if we're comparing ballistics without considerations for form factor, then don't be a pussy and deploy a Scar 17s in .308 or better yet, why not a big 50 Cal? Hell, buy a shitty ass pickup truck and mount something belt fed to the back and have a buddy ride with you standing back there in case shit gets super real.

Lol. It's the same mag essentially, but ok. The 33rd mag makes a pistol no less effective, it only stretches out your reloading. You don't have a long gun, just a bigger pistol with a stock on it. It's neat, but it's no 556. Yo could put a forward grip and stock on a Glock too and have the same effective weapon, but even more compact, and lighter. Probably cost about the same with a stamp too...

Kinda like this... It has enough size advantage to make sense to me. 9mm ARs don't.



We are considering all aspects. Your 9mm is only a few inches shorter in length than my AR if I take the can off, and the 30rd AR mag is shorter, since you mentioned the gangster mags... It's advantage is negligible at best in that category. If we we planning on going into battle and not considering weapon size, none of these would be the way to go. However we're talking about concealable weapon systems for vehicle use. I'd love to have a suburban with one of those vulcan mini guns too, but we're talking reality here... And why does it have to be a shitty truck? If you're spending belt-fed money get something nice for it to ride in at least...
 
I'm going to bring to bear the most weapon I can effectively. Period. I'll do my part to the best of my ability,

Wonderful, hypothetically you're at the top of your game. In real life though, even professionals miss sometimes.

You might miss and you might not miss, but there is nothing wrong with giving consideration to the consequences of things not going ideally in a less than ideal situation.

but I'm not going to disadvantage myself over a perception of lethality from the perspective of collateral damage.

It's not a question of perception at all. If the .223 round is more lethal to a bad guy than the 9mm, it's also more lethal when the innocent bystander catches one.

Since you bring it up though, your 9mm is just as likely to overpenetrate as quality 556, more so in many instances.....



Actually, you can read my posts and see that I'm not basing my logic on specific caliber comparison, but rather the premise of PCC vs. centerfire rifle.

The argument doesn't hold water...

The over-penetration thing is myth. FBI tests have found the same results as the video I linked.

I didn't mention penetration or over penetration, just like I didn't mention a specific caliber comparison. I mentioned the possibility of injuring bystanders. If you're arguing that you prefer to hit bystanders with the most lethal round possible, good for you.

Furthermore, you're disregarding a great many possible comparisons between calibers, 9mm isn't the only possible PCC round and 5.56 isn't the only possible rifle round, so your generalizations only fit your narrow parameters.
 
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Wonderful, hypothetically you're at the top of your game. In real life though, even professionals miss sometimes.

You might miss and you might not miss, but there is nothing wrong with giving consideration to the consequences of things not going ideally in a less than ideal situation.



It's not a question of perception at all. If the .223 round is more lethal to a bad guy than the 9mm, it's also more lethal when the innocent bystander catches one.



Actually, you can read my posts and see that I'm not basing my logic on specific caliber comparison, but rather the premise of PCC vs. centerfire rifle.



I didn't mention penetration or over penetration, just like I didn't mention a specific caliber comparison. I mentioned the possibility of injuring bystanders. If you're arguing that you prefer to hit bystanders with the most lethal round possible, good for you.

Furthermore, you're disregarding a great many possible comparisons between calibers, 9mm isn't the only possible PCC round and 5.56 isn't the only possible rifle round, so your generalizations only fit your narrow parameters.

Yep. You got me. I want to shoot all the folks around the bad guys... We all miss. You should consider it. Rule number 4. I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that it's silly(IMO) to carry a less lethal weapon based on potential of missing. That's flawed logic. By your logic, you should be using beanbag rounds because you might miss.

I said 9mm. Call it 40, 45, whatever. It was just an example based on the thread. Same with 556. Pistol vs Rifle, rifle wins. pretty much every time. The only exception is not killing people you shoot by accident. That's not one of my deciding factors. Doesn't mean I'm out to kill bystanders, just not interested in be less effective against actual targets for the sake of non-targets.

If you want to discuss other calibers and setups let's do it. I'm curious to hear any options out there. I have a 300blk too. I prefer it over a PCC as well, but still like my 556 more.
 
Lol. It's the same mag essentially, but ok. The 33rd mag makes a pistol no less effective, it only stretches out your reloading. You don't have a long gun, just a bigger pistol with a stock on it. It's neat, but it's no 556. Yo could put a forward grip and stock on a Glock too and have the same effective weapon, but even more compact, and lighter. Probably cost about the same with a stamp too...

Kinda like this... It has enough size advantage to make sense to me. 9mm ARs don't.



We are considering all aspects. Your 9mm is only a few inches shorter in length than my AR if I take the can off, and the 30rd AR mag is shorter, since you mentioned the gangster mags... It's advantage is negligible at best in that category. If we we planning on going into battle and not considering weapon size, none of these would be the way to go. However we're talking about concealable weapon systems for vehicle use. I'd love to have a suburban with one of those vulcan mini guns too, but we're talking reality here... And why does it have to be a shitty truck? If you're spending belt-fed money get something nice for it to ride in at least...

The comment on the extendo in your G34 was around weight and manipulation. My point stands, I'd you can be as effective with a G34 and the extendo as you can an SBR then why carry the SBR? If your answer to that is because of the increased "fire power" of 5.56 then we are back to form factor. How long is your AR pistol? Seriously, go get the tape and take a picture for us. Because when you come back and say "22 or 23" or whatever I am going to turn back around and say "Oh, well if it's only 2 to 3 inches longer than my AR9, why not just add another 2 to 3 inches and have a 10.3" Daniel Defense MK18 SBR?” Then we might as well say to hell with the stamp, let's just deploy a 14.5" with pinned FH. That's how escalation works.

How small does the CAA Chef Boyarde Microroni Glock stock shit collapse? I'll Google but I'd be interested to see. and I'd bet that G34 with a 33 rounder sticking out the bottom is taller than my AR9.

Point being: form factor matters WAY more to some folks (based on their vehicle, size, other constraints, etc) than bench ballistics that don't mean a goddamn thing in real life if you can't deploy your gun or hit your target.

Honestly, we should all be carrying 590 shockwaves with the magwell adapter and 10 rounds of Aguila mini shells. That's probably the cheapest, deadliest shit you can have in a 26" package.
 
Interesting, the Fab Defense Glock stock is 264mm collapsed, so just under 11 inches. A factory 17 is 7.94 inches, meaning your G34 is longer at 8.8 inches. So no, it's not shorter than my AR 9.
 
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