Pistol permit in a private sale

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No seriously. Nobody freaking knows.

On 2 separate occasions I sold pistols to a police officer. One told me I had to take his PPP and the other one said I didn’t. This was before they could buy without one.

I asked a Sherrif once and he said he thought I needed to keep it. I asked an attorney and he said the law isn’t clear at all and the way it’s written says nothing about me retaining it.

The only one I’ve ever kept was the one cop that said I had to. Not my permit so I didn’t care and I shredded it when I got home.
 
Charlie said:
I know that I have picked out some of the quote, but this quote seems to say that the seller must have a permit or CHP and that NC is a May Issue state rather than a Shall Issue state. I was under the impression that both of these are wrong.
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First, I think we've shot Buccaneer's matches a few times together.
Anyway, read it again closely.
"...it is unlawful for any person, firm, or corporation to sell, give away, or transfer,... any pistol without either a Pistol Purchase Permit or a North Carolina concealed handgun permit held by a resident of the State at the time of the purchase."

It's poorly worded, but it refers to it being unlawful to sell to anyone "without either a Pistol Purchase Permit or a North Carolina concealed handgun permit held by a resident of the State at the time of the purchase"

Doesn't say if you have to keep it in that text.
 
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Fieldgrade, That is what I have always thought, but the wording seemed a little ambiguous. The May Issue as opposed to Shall Issue bit seems clear enough, but I didn't think you had to convince anybody that you needed another pistol.

I have shot Buccaneer matches quite a few times but have not been able to do so lately due to health issues with my dear wife. I hope to be able to start shooting a little bit again in a few months.
 
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Charlie said:
Fieldgrade, That is what I have always thought, but the wording seemed a little ambiguous. The May Issue as opposed to Shall Issue bit seems clear enough, but I didn't think you had to convince anybody that you needed another pistol.

I have shot Buccaneer matches quite a few times but have not been able to do so lately due to health issues with my dear wife. I hope to be able to start shooting a little bit again in a few months.
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Charlie, I hope she gets better soon.
 
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The state statue is also wrong in stating that you NEED a PPP or CHP for every handgun transfer in the state. Ever see a FFL get a PPP/CHP from another FFL or when buying from a citizen? And on FFLs there are 9 types! Also NO PPP/CHP done at state/federal government level. They never list the expectations!


CD
 
Packman said:
Now this is interesting and what I am looking for. Is this in the DOJ laws? I may have missed it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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That which is not expressly illegal, is legal. They make laws telling you what to do sometimes, but mostly they lay out what is illegal. Which is the crux of the problem here. The legality of not keeping the permit is established because only FFL's are required to keep the permit by law. I'm not an FFL, thus I'm not required to keep the permit. And I don't. What they do with the permit later is on them and I don't really care.
 
I don’t agree with needing permits to begin with. Therefore I am not going to enforce the possible intentions of such a system and will do the minimum required and consider it bonus points that doing so flies in the face of those who enacted a permit system.
 
Maybe I'm paranoid or just old but if I'm going to sell a gun to you it will be though an FFL. If that doesn't work for you there will be someone else who will. This way when they come a knocking I just direct them to my FFL and I'm out of it.
 
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Admit that retirees who take a little "longer" to get reved up in the AM are dangerous. I have been buying and selling guns since the early 60's. PRIOR to JFK's tragic assassination. I also raised a Lawyer and spent more of my career dealing with my Corporate attorneys (product liability, real estate and regulatory) than any other discipline. Lawyers are, like my fellow engineers, a funny lot.

I have bought and sold a bunch of used cars over the years. I always wrote out some sort of Bill of Sale. I just made a firearm purchase and used my own "generic" BOS. Based on only being here for a few months, I have come to respect and agree with the standard line..."Must have XXX and all laws followed".

Prior to picking up my nice piece on Tuesday night, I hastily rewrote my BOS. Right, Wrong or Indifferent, I added some concise verbiage..... I feel that this protects me and also my fellow trader. I have names and addresses....and in some cases, DL#. Probably NEVER need this. BUT, in today's litigious society, a firearm can be misused in such a heinous way that two busloads of ambulance chasers will come after me and my resources.

I think that the common sense and consensus of the majority of "buyers and sellers" reflected here is reasonable and prudent. I also want to thank CFF in that I feel much better about buying and selling now based on what the majority are doing. I NOW do verify the identity and also the "credentials" of the other person and offer mine for his perusal... Here is the verbiage that I added. IF anyone wants a Word Doc with my generic BOS, PM me and I will send it.

Seller warrants that the items have been acquired legally and that they are the legal property of the Seller. Buyer warrants that the Buyer is legally qualified to purchase such in accordance to all applicable Federal, State, and Local regulations
 
TomGCherry said:
"Must have XXX and all laws followed"
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I have been asked for lots of things in a sale, but never porn ;-)

The majority is unlikely to find this proposed language offensive, other than the grammar nazis, but I will say that the majority does not expect or utilize a bill of sale.

I haven’t time to explain why a BOS doesn’t provide the legal protection that you seem to think it does, and how your language does not cure the issue. If you are curious just search for the other threads on this topic.
 
Welcome, Tom

The BOS offers no protection under the law to either party. Some go so far as to have the signatures notarized. Still, no protection. If you want a personal record of the buyer/seller, just record name and address for your spreadsheet. That way, you can say I sold my XXXX to Joe Smith of Raleigh on July 4, 1776 or whenever.
 
I prefer to do buisness with other chp holders. Thay does not mean i wont sell to a ppp holder. I follow the same procedure, look at permit, look at DL, they match and the photo matches the person i am looking at i make the sale. What you do with YOUR ppp after is YOUR buisness.
 
TSConver said:
I pulled it from a lawyers site as I said before. It was definitely that way in Durham. It has gotten better.
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Sorry, missed that.
 
JimB said:
I have been asked for lots of things in a sale, but never porn ;-)

The majority is unlikely to find this proposed language offensive, other than the grammar nazis, but I will say that the majority does not expect or utilize a bill of sale.

I haven’t time to explain why a BOS doesn’t provide the legal protection that you seem to think it does, and how your language does not cure the issue. If you are curious just search for the other threads on this topic.
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If you are an esteemed barrister or a legal scholar, then sometime PM and help me understand.

Not knocking or disputing what you say. But what I believe my wording and BOS language is called, is a "Good Faith Effort". Maybe the interpretation and personal injury laws have changed. Probably have. But, at least I have made the effort and have shown intent.

I have been down the road of hard knocks with product liability laws. Where a manufacturer or a folding wooden rule, with a sliding brass indicator (think dial indicator) paid a king's ransom in a PI suit. The "Shot" teacher had to go to the main office and left the class unattended. The lads were bored. They crumpled up a wad of paper and had an impromptu baseball game in the "lab". They took the 6 ft folding wood rule and shortened it to 2 ft or so for a bat. When one of the lads hit a home run, the centrifugal force of the swinging "bat" overcame the staked in assembly of the sliding depth clip. The clip then became a tangential missile and injured a fellow classmate's eye.

Parents sued the school, the teacher, the student and the manufacturer. Guess who ended up being the ONLY defendant? Even THOUGH a focus group (jurors NOT seated who were paid to hear a mock case based on the discovery evidence) said that the manufacturer in NO WAY could have foreseen the unauthorized and misuse of the wooden rule, that "SOMEBODY" ought to help out the poor kid. They awarded a substantial sum....not based on the injury or the potential economic impact of the student, but based on the max amount and the resources of the Fortune 500 company......

Next morning, our lawyers asked for a continuance and hammered out a settlement.

SO....yes....there is no perfect legal shelter into day's every changing society....but at least, from a personal standpoint, I tried and I did document.

Thanks for the comments...
 
TomGCherry said:
If you are an esteemed barrister or a legal scholar, then sometime PM and help me understand.

Not knocking or disputing what you say. But what I believe my wording and BOS language is called, is a "Good Faith Effort". Maybe the interpretation and personal injury laws have changed. Probably have. But, at least I have made the effort and have shown intent.

I have been down the road of hard knocks with product liability laws. Where a manufacturer or a folding wooden rule, with a sliding brass indicator (think dial indicator) paid a king's ransom in a PI suit. The "Shot" teacher had to go to the main office and left the class unattended. The lads were bored. They crumpled up a wad of paper and had an impromptu baseball game in the "lab". They took the 6 ft folding wood rule and shortened it to 2 ft or so for a bat. When one of the lads hit a home run, the centrifugal force of the swinging "bat" overcame the staked in assembly of the sliding depth clip. The clip then became a tangential missile and injured a fellow classmate's eye.

Parents sued the school, the teacher, the student and the manufacturer. Guess who ended up being the ONLY defendant? Even THOUGH a focus group (jurors NOT seated who were paid to hear a mock case based on the discovery evidence) said that the manufacturer in NO WAY could have foreseen the unauthorized and misuse of the wooden rule, that "SOMEBODY" ought to help out the poor kid. They awarded a substantial sum....not based on the injury or the potential economic impact of the student, but based on the max amount and the resources of the Fortune 500 company......

Next morning, our lawyers asked for a continuance and hammered out a settlement.

SO....yes....there is no perfect legal shelter into day's every changing society....but at least, from a personal standpoint, I tried and I did document.

Thanks for the comments...
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Your experience, or at least your example, is based on civil law, and as I read your comments your fears are based in criminal law. The issue is that there is no legal basis for your fear, so your efforts are all to mitigate something that doesn’t exist.

Try this exercise, write down your concerns in very plain language, probably a list of bullet points and then think honestly about how the police would prove that you did anything unlawful if you did not. I’m never going to change your mind, nobody will do that, but if you look at the realities of each situation, face your fears, you’ll find that they are simply not real.
 
Bailey Boat said:
Oh goody, now we have a lawyer pushing BOS.... Gimme a break....
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If you’re talking about Tom he said that he has had lots of experience, but isn’t a lawyer. He’s also not pushing anything, just saying what he does and why.

It is hard not to get snarky in these conversations that we’ve had so many times before, but for each new person it is a new conversation and we have to try not to bring our old baggage into it.

Now put a little more whiskey in your coffee and take a nap with the dog until your wife gets home ;-)
 
@Packman you have now seen a bunch of different answers to your question. There are no guarantees regardless of what you do, but you have to decide what makes sense to you.
 
vp9c said:
if that's the case....then I will do exactly what the law requires including a bill of sale!
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You do see what question I was answering "yes" to, right?
 
vp9c said:
I just want to clarify that I do this because it is the only way to definitely protect yourself from something in the future
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It can make you feel better, but it does nothing to protect you.
 
Wonderful, and since it's Friday night, I'll wish you the best with the homebrew get out of jail pass!
 
This thread has a lot of implied purple.
 
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