Plastic shotshell reloads crimp creep

Windini

Windini

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Made my first batch of 12g reloads last month; shot a bunch, all went bang.

Took some to 3g camp today & found numerous (not all) shells domed at the crimp. Seem the folds are not staying flat. The 8-folds are unfolding; the 6-folds seem to be holding their shape pretty well.

These are not "overloaded; i.e. it's not the shot column not allowing the crimp to get flat nor pushing the crimp upward. (I figure this b/c I can crimp 'em back down w/o much trouble.) I think it's just the "memory" in the plastic relaxing part way back to its uncrimped state.

I used a Lee Loadall for these. I did learn to keep a fold toward the front (per the distructions) so that the new crimp followed the existing fold pattern. I held the final crimp action for 2 - 5 seconds, though how consistently it is impossible to say. I did not "skive" nor condition the hulls before reloading.

So, what are the possible/probably cause(s) and fix(es)? Would warming the hulls up with a conical bit in a drill (conditioning) help? I recall reading that skiving is mostly for virgin shell cases, but I could get a bit for that too if it would work.
 
I’m about to start learning how to reload shot shells myself. No idea what caused the issue, but I’m interested in the solution.


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When I was loading shotgun shells many many years ago I was using a variety of different shells. Basically whatever brand I could scrounge up and some loaded better than others. I recall melting a bit of candle wax and pouring it on the crimp to keep them sealed. As long as the shot doesn't fall out you are good. ;)
 
Downeast said:
As long as the shot doesn't fall out you are good.
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:) Got this part down, so far!

It's worth noting I haven't really patterned any of my reloads yet. They seem to knock down chunks of steel on top of posts and break clays at 15 yds, so they're doing what I ask them to at the moment.
 
Try to load the same type of hull . Difference in shell base and interior volume may require different wad compression. I have found the Remington gun club ( green 12 gauge) to reload with very nice crimps. I use play dough or Babybell cheese wax to fill the occasional gap. Don't like the idea of open flame around gun powder 💥
 
Bahamadon said:
Difference in shell base and interior volume may require different wad compression
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Aha! This is useful, thanks.

EDIT: So it could be that "overloading" is an issue with some of mine. Matter of fact, I b'leve it's the Federals that have a greater tendency to uncrimp themselves. Interior capacity difference + same shot column/contents may be the culprit.
 
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Definitely could be. In my manuals each different hull has its own set of recipes. there is no "mixed range pickup" in shotshell reloading.

I use a hot glue gun to seal up difficult crimps. as said above, no open flame for me.
 
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As Bahamadon suggested, different cases require different wads or wad compression.

One thing that should be considered is the adjustment of the crimping die. I had a friend who was an avid skeet shooter and who loaded all his own shells. He frequently had the crimp bulging and would seal them with wax from a candle. I spent about two minutes with an Alllen wrench and adjusted his MEC very slightly so that the crimps never bulged again. I know nothing about the Lee press, and adjusting it to have a tighter crimp may not be possible.
 
All hulls are not the same. Some have straight walls inside some are tapered, some skived some not. Tapered or straight wall wads are available. You cant really adjust wad pressure very well with the lee , but it is capable of loading shells very well, if you can stick with one kind of hull and obtain wads for that hull. I use Winchester AAs and Remington Hulls. Federals take a different set up on my presses so I stick with ones that load better. With a Mec press I can add or decrease wad pressure as needed really don't like a combo that takes more than 40 Lbs, pressure. Some take zero or just enough pressure for wad to seat. After components are in hull I can adjust for a deeper or more shallow crimp. As hulls age and get shot a few times they weaken in there ability to hold a crimp. I have for a few loads put a small spacer/washer on top of loaded shell to give a little extra crimp. But it was for a few special loads I tried.
What part of stat are you in I have some AA,s you could try if you havent tried that type hull. But if you are using different hulls with the same powder wad shot recipe you will get mixed results.
 
Thanks for all the input!

I "knew" that sticking with one recipe with one set of components would be better; however, tracking down everything I needed for this, that, or the other in these times wound up putting off reloading until I was just about out of birdshot shells... so I got as close as I could with one load. It worked, so I tried other hulls to increase my supply -- and funny! It didn't go as well as planned! Who coulda seen that comin? (ha)

I just received some Cheddite 2-3/4" new hulls after cancelling the backordered part of that order. (More delay) I hope to find a load of about 3/4oz - 7/8oz of 7 or 7-1/2 shot that will work with wads I have on hand and Unique powder. For wads, I have a dwindling supply of Remington RXP's and some Claybusters of various sizes.

I think the Lee is pretty limited. (But then, so am I.) I weighed a number of powder & shot charges using various bushings - they were quite a bit off from what Lee says, so I made my own chart & will keep verifying actual throw weight prior to running a batch. That said, I was able to load 60 or 70 shells and they pretty much work, so it'll do the job if I get my chops down.

@Dan , I'm in Asheville; if it looks like I'll be passing by you any time soon, I may take you up on the AA's offer, thanks!
 
Too much shot, too tall of wad, too much powder, or an incorrect setup for the final crimp can cause a poor fold. Wads come in a variety of sizes to accommodate various amounts of shot and powder. The longer the cup the shorter the legs. The legs are the flat pieces of plastic between the base and cup. They fold up when fired to absorb recoil and protect the shot from getting deformed. There is a certain combination of wad, powder and shot that fits in a given shell. And different brands of shells are not the same. What works in one might not work in another. When you try to cram too much into the shell you partially collapse the legs of the wad, during storage they act like a spring and push the crimp folds slowly open. Easiest solution, not knowing what your components, machine or load is to say drop an 1/8 oz on your shot bushing and see how they work. Heres a good photo of the dif between a 7/8 oz cup and a 1 1/8 oz [i think] cup. I use the pink wad for my 7/8 oz #9 shot cas loads, the red load is used in my short 2 inch 1 oz loads. While a partially open sg shell will fire, by not creating enough backpressure the powder doesn’t burn like it should and generate the pressure needed. It’s possible to have a blooper where the wad is still stuck in the bbl. It would act as an obstruction and cause the bbl to blow up if another round was fired. Your reload crimp should look as good as a factory crimp and not need any wax or glue to keep it folded. I’m not an expert by any means but have been building sg cowboy loads for a very long time. I have a spare barrel next to my old Pacific press so I do a plunk test on them as I build them, if they fail they become yard loads, good ones are match loads.
81269B18-EC20-4A22-8247-CD69FCF16A5E.jpeg
 
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baltimoreed said:
When you try to cram too much into the shell you partially collapse the legs of the wad, during storage they act like a spring and push the crimp folds slowly open
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I think this may be my problem, given that it is almost exclusively the Federal hulls that aren't staying crimped.

Since my original goal was 3/4 - 7/8 oz shot, but the recipe for the Rem RXP wads & Uique that I found was for 1-1/8oz, they are heavier than I'd like already. So losing 1/8oz sounds good.

But that makes me wonder: if the shot cup is designed for x-oz of shot, isn't it also scaled for volume? So if I lose 1/8 oz shot, won't the rim of the shot cup still be too high (for some hulls)?

SInce the legs and shot cup are of fixed dimensions, wouldn't it be a better "fix" to lessen the charge, which is under the wad?

That last is a purely hypothetical question! I realize one would be changing the dynamics of the load significantly by lessening the power-to-weight ratio.

Before I read your post, I was considering using a shorter wad and perhaps a lower powder charge, calibrating the shot column by observing the relationship of the top of the shot cup to the fold line of the original crimp (on re-used hulls). Then I could add that dimension's worth of filler (cornmeal, fibre wad, etc.) to level it up.

Heck of a lot more complicated than just losing an 1/8oz of shot, so guess which I'm likely to try first? :)
 
The cup is designed to hold a volume of shot with a little bit of flex as there is difference between the sizes of shot and how much space it can occupy. That’s why I’ve always used #9 in my cas loads as opposed to #7, there’s more shot for a given weight by volume. Shot and powder are measured by the volume of the bushing. At least in my Bair and Pacific presses. You can certainly reduce the powder bushing too. The secret is in the wad and getting the right one for your load. Try another wad. I have added spacers under the shot and overshot cards to get the right shot height. If you have too small of a load the folds will fold in and not be flat and a hole will open in the center allowing shot to leak. Shotshell reloading is a little more complicated than centerfire reloading. And then if you’re reloading for serious hunting your load velocity and gun’s patterning becomes important. My current cas load is a 3/4 oz of #9, Clay Dot with a #408 or #398 powder bushing with a pink Claybuster wad. The smaller powder bushing was ok but I found that my cut down Model 12 Winchester needed more umph so I went up a step.
 
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Catfish said:
What manual are you using?
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Nyuck, nyuck.

Went online, looked up Unique shotshell recipes, scrolled around 'til I found one that had most of the components I had onhand. I am most "flexible" regarding primers. 209's have variations, but at this point I only require ignition, not el perfecto velocity & patterning.
 
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‘Manuals what manuals, we don need no stinkin manuals.’
Forgot to mention that I use WW AA hulls. The older one piece hulls were great but the new one’s will collapse and wrinkle if you’re not careful.
 
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I have the lyman shotshell manual. i can text you pics from it if you mssg me what components. or i could probably read upthread but im a lazy helper.
 
Also @baileyboat (remember him?) Splained it to me thusly:

'The shotgun has the weakest construction, thinnest barrel, and heaviest payload of all the guns you own. On top of that, shotshell pressures vary every time you change any component. do not eff around and experiment unless you dont mind ruining a gun and hurting yourself. go by the book. '
 
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I started with the aim to build #9 shot cas loads equivalent to WW Featherlights not field loads so if anything my loads were underpowered. Also because I’m cheap and am trying to stretch my shot and powder as far as possible. Have done a few bloopers until I figured it out. I always add a 5/8 card [stamped from primer sleeve cardboard] over my shot in case my crimp opens up the center where the folds meet. These are my 2 inch shells that I use to add a 7th round in my 6 rd modified 1897s, Marlin pumps and Model 12s for Wild Bunch.

238B2271-3008-437D-AF4C-EC36BC91FDE6.jpeg
 
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baltimoreed said:
Windini, did you ever get your shell crimps right?
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I did! And thanks for askin.

I re-seated the crimps on the 1st problematic shells. All but one of the hulls that worked well the 1st time held the 2nd crimp. I'm going to attribute that to 'plastic memory' and me not holding the lever down long enough on the final crimp.

The few others were hit-or-miss as far as holding the crimp the second time. These I believe were due to me using inappropriate hulls for that load column (wad push, we'll call it).

Durn it! Now I'm back to squre 1, though, 'cause I done shot all my reloads at that 3-gun match in Old Fort yesterday! :)

I've been combing through recipes and marking out what components I have (and keeping an eye out for ones I may need), so I hope the next batch is mo' better.

By that I mean I hope they seek out the target after trigger pull mo' better than yesterday's!
 
I make light black powder 12 gauge reloads with biodegradable airsoft balls as payload, to keep away the black vultures that try to mess with our ducks. (Patterned at 10 yards, won’t penetrate a single layer pizza box. It is really the noise that scares the vultures, because they’re much farther away than 10 yards. Nothing else scares them off - they come back quickly. But this seems to keep them away for weeks at a time)
I have the same issue with the crimps opening on a few shells out of every 25 round batch that I load. Just loaded some more this past week, and put a drop of hot glue in the center of the crimp as mentioned in this thread. Was very quick to do. I’ll let you know if it works on mine.
 
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Windini said:
Made my first batch of 12g reloads last month; … what are the possible/probable cause(s) and fix(es)?
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Windini, congrats on getting into shot-shell reloading!

After also starting out myself with a Lee “load all” (what a misnomer that name turned out to be! 🙄) I didn’t know what Nirvana was until I loaded my first shell on an old, battered, weatherworn MEC 600 Jr I got off CraigsList (the previous owner’s survivors listed it without using any of CL’s trigger words). After the first experiences with that MEC - and the right powder, wad and payload for what I was trying to accomplish - I couldn’t find anyone I disliked that much so, that LLA went straight into the scrap bin!

*If* one has patience, right now is a fantabulous time to be hunting a 12ga MEC press as the dearth of components - and prices if and when you find anything (FJB!) - has a lot of people getting discouraged by the realization buying factory shells (again, if one can find them (FJB! ) to the point they are selling their presses.

See Post # 3 here (heck, enjoy the whole thread! :)


New Reloaders - make it easy on yourself:​



Powder is also starting to become available and you will be thrilled to get away from having to try and make Unique work for the reloads you want; as you’ve discovered Unique is the NUMERO UNO powder for multiple calibers and gauges but, light 12ga loads is NOT one of them! 😆

Best o’ Success!
 
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Windini said:
I do have a copy of the Lyman book...
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And a scale I trust?

A irreplaceable supplement to the Lyman book is Alliant’s interactive shotshell reloading data page! http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/default.aspx?page=/reloaders/index.aspx&

^That^ shotshell recipe data resource is so valuable it actually makes it worth one’s-while shopping only for Alliant powders. (The Hodgdon/Win reloading data page is a PIA compared to Alliant’s, not showing you any recipes until you’ve been forced to input every specific component … sometimes the opposite of helpful to a new reloaded just learning …)

*If* you come across it, my hands down favorite 12ga powder for light loads (12ga 1/2oz to 7/8oz) is Alliant’s EXTRA LITE (I have one press set up exclusively for only 9/16oz loads in 12ga Win HS hulls using the ClayBuster 3/4oz wad CB-0175-12 and 14.5 to 15.5 grains Alliant EXTRA LITE). It’s out there; I just picked up an 8lb keg MidSouth had. Set me back $210 but by golly, it’s on my bench!
 
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Yep, got scales and have verified bushings to actual throw weights.

I've reloaded metallic, just now getting into shotshells. A large part of my "Heinz 57" approach (till now) has been avialabilty of hulls & compatible wads, I started with field pick-ups, then placed an order with BP; that order was delayed almost 2 months b/c they didn't actually have any of one brand of hulls that were listed in stock when I ordered. (To be fair, their customer service was excellent. But they didn't have my alternate choices either, so I halved the order just to get it moving.)

Hodgdon's data page is a PITA! I don't recall it being so bad until recently. Got Alliant bookmarked.

Ultimately, I'd like to get a few "classes" of loads - light & medium target, a heavier Turkey load, and a buck recipe. Then, after tuning those to my need, I'll stick to what works w/o changes unless need arises.

So far, they've all gone "bang!"
 
Windini said:
Ultimately, I'd like to get a few "classes" of loads - light & medium target, a heavier Turkey load, and a buck recipe.
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Do you really want to try to make that many different loads? How many turkey or deer shells do you use each year? You probably do not shoot more than a few of those each season and would probably be better off just buying factory rounds for those hunts. You would need to get different components for each different load. I would not be too excited about buying a bag of 500 wads so that I could use five or ten of them a year. What type of shell do you use the most? I bet you use more target loads or small game loads, and one load can serve both purposes. Work on the one load that you plan on shooting the most. Get the correct components and do not try to force things to do what they do not want to do.

I have never used one of the Lee presses but have used MEC presses for over half a century and feel very comfortable recommending them for new loaders as well as for experienced loaders.
 
DangerRuss said:
I have the same issue with the crimps opening on a few shells out of every 25 round batch that I load. Just loaded some more this past week, and put a drop of hot glue in the center of the crimp as mentioned in this thread. Was very quick to do. I’ll let you know if it works on mine.
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An update on my hot glued shells… None of them have opened up, so that’s great. I had to use four of them yesterday morning to chase off some black vultures that were roosting above our chickens and ducks. They worked fine, no issues.
 
Glad they worked Russ but you shouldn’t have to use glue on your shells. Your press should do a proper crimp that doesn’t uncrimp itself.
 
I didn't think to take a picture, but I found out not all hulls are reloadable!

In my 2nd batch, I included a few once-fired GB brand (Spain) that had been #5 shot. The 209 primers didn't seat well; they crept out a tad out after crimping. I pushed them back in with a dowel and they seemed to stick.

When I went to reload at my next range trip, i pulled three shells from a pocket and went to load one at a time... and noticed after the first one that I had powder in my hand!

Sure enough, the primer had fallen out of the GB shell.

Check and double check.
 
Yeah, they sound pretty disposable if 209 primers fall out. I have plenty of WW AA shells if you ever get to New Bern let me know and I’ll drive to town. Planning on doing some 12 ga reloading this week.
 
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I picked up about 20 nice looking 12 ga Fiocchi shells at November’s match and reloaded them. They had looser primer pockets and felt softer than AAs but made nice crimps. Tried them in our December cas match, 3 rds on the first stage, two were weak and one a blooper but the wad exited the bbl. I’m guessing between the weak folds and poor seal on the primers they were generating too little pressure with my wads, powder and shot. Switched to my 2 inch shells and shot the match ok. Disassembled and recycled the components on the other Fiocchi shells. Since the shoot I’ve done 125 AA 12 ga shells and 50 two inch shells as I was about out. Going to do another 50-75 AA two inch shells.
 
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Not all primers are the same size. Nobel primers, if I remember correctly, are just a tad bigger and can wallow out the primer pockets of some hulls. I loaded a bunch of 20 gauge cases one time, Federals I think, with Nobel primers and tried to load them with Winchester primers the next time. Lots of the Winchester primers would not stay in the hulls that had once held the Nobel primers.
 
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