Policy question for mods....

tanstaafl72555

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So.... in a question that is also a display into my fevered and convoluted thinking process......

I just looked at a vid of a perp in SA Texas who fatally shot a homeowner, took rounds to the chest, got in his car and escaped. He collapsed, and the vid shows him on the floor of a suburban home begging the cops to save his life. They did, and then he got convicted for 2nd degree murder and is doing life without parole. (vid on Breitbart). Details of the trial confirmed that the criminal CLAIMED the homeowner fired first, but forensic evidence determined that the criminal fired FIRST... thus the conviction... and the death of the good guy in this exchange.

I was thinking "the homeowner confronted him and allowed him to fire first." I don't know the details, and am not criticizing the dead man, but I am thinking. "if I know this person has no business in my home (not a family member) then I am not going to say "hey!" or "halt!" or "freeze" or ..... NOTHING. I am going to shoot, because I HAVE LEGITIMATE REASON TO FEAR FOR MY LIFE.

This led to a segue to another thought. My FB account is gone, so no possibly reckless posts are extant there, but if I have an aggressive DA, s/he is going to fish all my accounts for "evidence" that I am a cowboy and loose cannon. If the DA does not, the lawyer for the family suing me in civil court (I have assets and you damn sure better believe they will go for them!) will surf for anything. This board is frankly a gold mine for such a fishing expedition for many of us. It is really a matter of time until SOMEONE here on this board is involved in such an altercation. If/when they are, someone is going to subpoena their records, and the staff will have NO OPTION but to turn them over. You can blame the stupidity of the poster for saying irresponsible crap and you will be right, but you are handing them the crowbar to beat us to death.

I am suggesting that the staff TAKE A PRO ACTIVE STAND (after legal consult, of course) and have a stated policy that because of prosecutorial malfeasance in some areas, the board has a written SOP that ANY TIME A MEMBER IS INVOLVED IN A SHOOTING, the board's policy upon notification will be to immediately and permanently delete this person's account and all their posts, and scrub those postings to prevent abusing them in a courtroom.

Please do consider this. I think if you take that stand you can state in a way where you will never be accused of spoliation of evidence. (you can't do this, of course, once you have received notice that the court wants it) It is PRE EMPTIVE destruction of data, and the written sop can be stated that it is to avoid taking private unguarded conversations and turning them into "evidence" for an imaginary crime.

It is a small thing, but it is both legal, and could be a big big big blessing to one of our members when the balloon finally goes up in their home.

Think about it, please and pass it around.

I would be interested in feedback on this.

... and yes, I know about the wayback function in google.
 
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Yeah...I'm not an owner here. That said, my opinion would not just be "No", but "Oh, hell no. WTF are you smoking?"

Why would any entity (which ultimately CFF is) have an official policy of removing data/evidence if a member is suspected of a crime? That's just asinine.

Could you imagine the blowback that would result? "Your Honor, This ultra-right-wing GUN FORUM has a POLICY to DELETE THE DEFENDANTS OWN WRITINGS as a way to COVER UP ...blah blah blah"


If you are concerned about your postings coming back to bite you in the ass, then maybe you should keep those things to yourself.
 
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f*ck the blowback. This is not about the press image of the gun culture. We aren't going to rescue that in the press and should frankly not care at all. (my opinion) I could care less what the N&O write, and they are going to write the same story no matter what.

I thought I addressed the issue of spoliation of evidence. Perhaps I was unclear. If the member is arrested, that is another issue. If the member is charged, that is another issue.

I am sorry I did not make the timeline sequence clear. Sometimes my distorted rants are like that. Apologies.

And... I do agree that everyone should post here with the image of a zealous prosecutor or civil damages lawyer reading it aloud in court. People are ultimately responsible for their statements.

HOWEVER, CB Ford actually wiped her entire presence from the internet (she probably needed a Googleite's help for that) in the weeks prior to the Kavanaugh debacle. This is NOT criminal behavior......, just smart.

Thanks for the feeback, though.
 
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So, by extension, have you instructed your bank to burn all financial records in the event you're accused of embezzlement?

Given the "wayback" tech that is easily available I see absolutely no practical purpose in what you are asking the owners to do. The ONLY outcome I can see from this is a clear and direct effort to obscure the record that exposes the forum ownership/staff to legal action - warranted or otherwise. Again, to no practical benefit.

So, if you don't want your rambling diatribes used against you, don't make them. Seems awfully clear to me.
 
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oh, that reminds me. If you ever want a witty riposte to the retort "WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING?" you can try "what am I smoking?..., why, inferior minds, of course! Like my smoke rings?"

Anyway, it is usable if you don't care about the hysterics that follow. I laughed, anyway.
 
oh, that reminds me. If you ever want a witty riposte to the retort "WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING?" you can try "what am I smoking?..., why, inferior minds, of course! Like my smoke rings?"

Anyway, it is usable if you don't care about the hysterics that follow. I laughed, anyway.
So, by extension, have you instructed your bank to burn all financial records in the event you're accused of embezzlement?

Given the "wayback" tech that is easily available I see absolutely no practical purpose in what you are asking the owners to do. The ONLY outcome I can see from this is a clear and direct effort to obscure the record that exposes the forum ownership/staff to legal action - warranted or otherwise. Again, to no practical benefit.

So, if you don't want your rambling diatribes used against you, don't make them. Seems awfully clear to me.

Ok. Review with me the standards for spoliation of evidence, and we can go down that trail further. Don't want to interact with you till I am sure you know what you are talking about and can distinguish between that and removing potentially inflammatory and non criminal talk. When you get those sorted out, I will be happy to review. Till then, I will just repeat that I appreciate the interaction, but you are scratching where there is no itch.
 
Sounds like you are advocating for a cover up.

First off if a shooting is good they aren't going to be trying to screw over a victim just for fun.

If it's not a good shoot and you find yourself under a microscope asking the forum to be an accessory after the fact is a no go.

If it were me in the situation I think that my posts on here could only help me, mainly because I try not to be a macho blowhard.
 
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BTW, I just announced my own intent to shoot anyone in my home with no warning if they do not belong there, on the legally justified premise that I have grounds to consider they are there to do me (or my family) bodily injury. WHILE THAT IS LEGAL, it is also something that I would prefer not be handed over to a foam flecked hysterical gun ranter attorney. If I had said "I am going to get my gun and chase that guy I think did something and shoot him down like the dog he is".... THAT is criminal, and I guarantee you the mods would take it down, or demand I take it down and SHOULD notify authorities.

Last try at explaining the difference. Off to slay dragons and chase the filthy lucre.
 
Yeah. I forgot. If you dont' have anything to hide, why should you object to handing it over? I forget that sometimes. Sorry.
You don't know me. But tell me what do people think when a story comes out and information is withheld? That is usually taken as a sign of guilt, more so than what ever the information that was being redacted would imply.
 
You don't need a JD to read up on these things.

Zubulake IV recognized that a claim of spoliation can only arise if there is a duty to preserve the information destroyed. The duty to preserve arises when a party knows or should know that evidence may be relevant to litigation which it reasonably anticipates. See, e.g., Silvestri v. General Motors Corp., 271 F.3d 583, 591 (4th Cir. 2001). While a party is not required to preserve “every shred of paper, every email or electronic document, and every backup tape,” a party is required to preserve what it “knows, or reasonably should know, is relevant in the action, is reasonably calculated to lead to the discovery of admissible evidence, or is reasonably likely to be requested during discovery and/or is the subject of a pending discovery request.” Zubulake IV, 220 F.R.D. at 217 (quoting Turner v. Hudson Transit Lines, Inc., 142 F.R.D. 68, 72 (S.D.N.Y 1991)).

Source: http://www.gwblawfirm.com/spoliation-trap-unwary/

I can point to several other similar, this was the most readable. My goal in engaging...in the face of your oh so smug retorts...is to advocate for the FORUM's best interest.
 
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lol

Be smart, dont talk out your butt, and you wont have anything to worry about.
 
Private conversations on tangential issues not related to criminal activity is not evidence. Talk to your lawyer. He will tell you that. The reason I know this is because I defended myself without a lawyer _they call that peo se_ in federal court. I won. I chose to defend myself because I actually trusted my own attention to detail about evidence and how to preserve it demonstrated and condense a judge or jury that I had done so. I trusted my own abilities more than I trusted some Hired Gun of an attorney. If I case it was about spoliation of evidence for another party gun actually compromised evidence and twisted it and the Feast at and attempted to use it as evidence against me. I was in the legal process for 2 years. I read more documents on this and Duke's Law Library would almost maniacal attention to detail then you can imagine. If a defendant show lays out his case in such minoot detail so that the plaintiff when confronted with the exculpatory evidence has such a weak case that the judge says no jewelry in their right Minds could reasonably convicted this man, the judge throws out the case and they call this a summary judgment. I won a summary judgement by myself in US Federal Court Southeast District of Michigan in 2013. You can look it up online I think you just registered as PML versus Hartford and RTP insurance and I cannot remember the other guy's name right now. Just Google it and you can read all of the documents including what I put together and presented to the court.
I am not an attorney and it I am not an attorney and it would therefore be stupid for me to recommend that the board owners take my legal advice for this. In the initial posting I recommended that they follow legal advice on this. I would still do so. I would not recommend following a board member just because he claims to have won a case representing himself. That would be stupid. It would be just as stupid as falling other board members who have no idea what they're talking about trying to explain why exfoliation of evidence is. I would love to avoid both of us and get a lawyer's advice but if the lawyer says yes then I think it would be a helpful and wise thing to adopt a policy similar
 
HOWEVER, CB Ford actually wiped her entire presence from the internet (she probably needed a Googleite's help for that) in the weeks prior to the Kavanaugh debacle. This is NOT criminal behavior......, just smart.

Thanks for the feeback, though.

You're comparing apples to oranges.

CB Ford proactively removed herself (with or without help) in advance.

The forum policy you are requesting would involve a 3rd party (forum staff) responding to a request in the aftermath of a specific event (the shooting you suppose) which any reasonable person would say meets the duty to preserve I highlighted above.
 
Private conversations on tangential issues not related to criminal activity is not evidence. Talk to your lawyer. He will tell you that. The reason I know this is because I defended myself without a lawyer _they call that peo se_ in federal court. I won. I chose to defend myself because I actually trusted my own attention to detail about evidence and how to preserve it demonstrated and condense a judge or jury that I had done so. I trusted my own abilities more than I trusted some Hired Gun of an attorney. If I case it was about spoliation of evidence for another party gun actually compromised evidence and twisted it and the Feast at and attempted to use it as evidence against me. I was in the legal process for 2 years. I read more documents on this and Duke's Law Library would almost maniacal attention to detail then you can imagine. If a defendant show lays out his case in such minoot detail so that the plaintiff when confronted with the exculpatory evidence has such a weak case that the judge says no jewelry in their right Minds could reasonably convicted this man, the judge throws out the case and they call this a summary judgment. I won a summary judgement by myself in US Federal Court Southeast District of Michigan in 2013. You can look it up online I think you just registered as PML versus Hartford and RTP insurance and I cannot remember the other guy's name right now. Just Google it and you can read all of the documents including what I put together and presented to the court.
I am not an attorney and it I am not an attorney and it would therefore be stupid for me to recommend that the board owners take my legal advice for this. In the initial posting I recommended that they follow legal advice on this. I would still do so. I would not recommend following a board member just because he claims to have won a case representing himself. That would be stupid. It would be just as stupid as falling other board members who have no idea what they're talking about trying to explain why exfoliation of evidence is. I would love to avoid both of us and get a lawyer's advice but if the lawyer says yes then I think it would be a helpful and wise thing to adopt a policy similar
above is above is voice transcription on the interstate. You may have to guess at some of the words but I think you can get the meaning
 
to follow to follow up. It's a long ride this morning and I'm in my pickup truck. To be charged even much less convicted of spoliation of evidence you have to have evidence that there really was evidence. Private unexamined conversations between persons are not evidence. They are Chef Lee conversations. If that were the standard for spoliation of evidence and no one could ever delete anything anytime ever if they are charged with a crime. This is insane. No court would ever conduct a person of such a thing because there must be evidence that evidence was tampered with. Courts have ruled over and over and over that suspicions off prosecutors are not grounds for asserting there is evidence. As a matter of fact suspicions of police officers are not reasonable grounds even for search and seizure much less evidence for a Court.
if this board has a written policy that they if this board has a written policy that they will not tolerate illegal activity threats or statements of plans to break the law regarding guns, and they should, then their commitment to delete an account of someone who might find their statements used in prejudice against them is not illegal. You would be laughed out of court if you made such an assertion. I cannot be tried in a court room for my Politically Incorrect thoughts. Nor can I be charged with deleting evidence of Politically Incorrect thoughts.
civil cases are a different matter. These standards for evidence are lower the burden of proof is lower and the penalties are different. You won't go to prison but you could be ruined financially simply by legal costs much less a prejudicial jury. The good thing about civil actions is they are usually filed after the criminal actions are dealt with or at least the criminal court proceedings are dealt with. That means there is all the Time in the World to delete an account with no question in any shape manner or form of spoliation. What is more, if it is board policy, the individual member cannot be charged with hiding evidence at all because it is the policy of the board itself. If that policy is legal then the plaintiff not only has no window into private conversations that go on here, they also have no ability to force the member to cough them up. The member can legitimately say hey I would love to but the board has deleted them it is their policy to do so precisely because of cases like this. Again that is not illegal at all. I would counsel you to find an attorney and ask them
 
above is above is voice transcription on the interstate. You may have to guess at some of the words but I think you can get the meaning
Private conversations on tangential issues not related to criminal activity is not evidence. Talk to your lawyer. He will tell you that. The reason I know this is because I defended myself without a lawyer _they call that peo se_ in federal court. I won. I chose to defend myself because I actually trusted my own attention to detail about evidence and how to preserve it demonstrated and condense a judge or jury that I had done so. I trusted my own abilities more than I trusted some Hired Gun of an attorney. If I case it was about spoliation of evidence for another party gun actually compromised evidence and twisted it and the Feast at and attempted to use it as evidence against me. I was in the legal process for 2 years. I read more documents on this and Duke's Law Library would almost maniacal attention to detail then you can imagine. If a defendant show lays out his case in such minoot detail so that the plaintiff when confronted with the exculpatory evidence has such a weak case that the judge says no jewelry in their right Minds could reasonably convicted this man, the judge throws out the case and they call this a summary judgment. I won a summary judgement by myself in US Federal Court Southeast District of Michigan in 2013. You can look it up online I think you just registered as PML versus Hartford and RTP insurance and I cannot remember the other guy's name right now. Just Google it and you can read all of the documents including what I put together and presented to the court.
I am not an attorney and it I am not an attorney and it would therefore be stupid for me to recommend that the board owners take my legal advice for this. In the initial posting I recommended that they follow legal advice on this. I would still do so. I would not recommend following a board member just because he claims to have won a case representing himself. That would be stupid. It would be just as stupid as falling other board members who have no idea what they're talking about trying to explain why exfoliation of evidence is. I would love to avoid both of us and get a lawyer's advice but if the lawyer says yes then I think it would be a helpful and wise thing to adopt a policy similar

Talks about wanting to hide possibly incriminating evidence, admits to texting while driving. Nice.
 
Doing this, and by this, I mean premptively scrubbing a members’ data could likely be viewed as a premeditated conspiracy by such an aggressive DA. The forum, and therefore the owners, would have to answer to those charges
 
to follow to follow up. It's a long ride this morning and I'm in my pickup truck. To be charged even much less convicted of spoliation of evidence you have to have evidence that there really was evidence. Private unexamined conversations between persons are not evidence. They are Chef Lee conversations. If that were the standard for spoliation of evidence and no one could ever delete anything anytime ever if they are charged with a crime. This is insane. No court would ever conduct a person of such a thing because there must be evidence that evidence was tampered with. Courts have ruled over and over and over that suspicions off prosecutors are not grounds for asserting there is evidence. As a matter of fact suspicions of police officers are not reasonable grounds even for search and seizure much less evidence for a Court.
if this board has a written policy that they if this board has a written policy that they will not tolerate illegal activity threats or statements of plans to break the law regarding guns, and they should, then their commitment to delete an account of someone who might find their statements used in prejudice against them is not illegal. You would be laughed out of court if you made such an assertion. I cannot be tried in a court room for my Politically Incorrect thoughts. Nor can I be charged with deleting evidence of Politically Incorrect thoughts.
civil cases are a different matter. These standards for evidence are lower the burden of proof is lower and the penalties are different. You won't go to prison but you could be ruined financially simply by legal costs much less a prejudicial jury. The good thing about civil actions is they are usually filed after the criminal actions are dealt with or at least the criminal court proceedings are dealt with. That means there is all the Time in the World to delete an account with no question in any shape manner or form of spoliation. What is more, if it is board policy, the individual member cannot be charged with hiding evidence at all because it is the policy of the board itself. If that policy is legal then the plaintiff not only has no window into private conversations that go on here, they also have no ability to force the member to cough them up. The member can legitimately say hey I would love to but the board has deleted them it is their policy to do so precisely because of cases like this. Again that is not illegal at all. I would counsel you to find an attorney and ask them
Me thinks forum owners just need some bleach and some rags
just ask HRC
 
I think that the forum software allows a user to delete all of the content they posted. Not sure it it’s a single button thing, but you can go to “my content” and wipe everything. Not sure if it deletes stuff from posts made by others that quote you.

Involving forum management/staff, while perhaps not illegal, also adds no value for the forum, so why do it?

Just my $0.02
 
I think that the forum software allows a user to delete all of the content they posted.
My experience with censors is that user deleted stuff really isn’t deleted, it’s just not visible unless you’re a mod or an admin in which case you can read or restore it.
 
My experience with censors is that user deleted stuff really isn’t deleted, it’s just not visible unless you’re a mod or an admin in which case you can read or restore it.

I think your right on it. Plus do we not think the nsa hasn't kept a record of everything? We joke but we are on a list I'm sure.
 
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I’m quite certain that there is no purge even for an admin that would wipe select data from all backups, so the only perfect solution is to be honest and sincere in what you say online, and own it if the time ever comes.
 
Sorry to bail on my own thread. Been busy. Also been thinking and cogitating on why I should give a sh*t what some DA "thinks" vs what the law requires? I guess I am just slow, and can't come up with anything. other than the fact that I also "need" to do a bill of sale also, because .... well, after all, how else can I prove my innocence to some aggressive state bureaucrat?

Anyway, another path on this foul and dangerous suggestion that we hide and destroy "evidence" might be for the forum to "take down for maintenance" the board and remove any "objectionable" posts.... as in "you are such an idiot that I will save your stupid ass from any future court issues that might catch you....." though this would likely produce howls of "censorship" from the people who most need the favor you (the mods) are doing them. Maybe you could start by deleting my post where I admit to texting while driving?

I love this place.

Roll Tide 39-10
 
Sorry to bail on my own thread. Been busy. Also been thinking and cogitating on why I should give a sh*t what some DA "thinks" vs what the law requires? I guess I am just slow, and can't come up with anything. other than the fact that I also "need" to do a bill of sale also, because .... well, after all, how else can I prove my innocence to some aggressive state bureaucrat?

Have you been asked by a NC DA for this, or are you cogitating on the hypothetical? I’ve never had even second hand knowledge of anyone being required to prove to whom they sold a firearm so am curious if it happened.

Anyway, another path on this foul and dangerous suggestion that we hide and destroy "evidence" might be for the forum to "take down for maintenance" the board and remove any "objectionable" posts.... as in "you are such an idiot that I will save your stupid ass from any future court issues that might catch you....." though this would likely produce howls of "censorship" from the people who most need the favor you (the mods) are doing them. Maybe you could start by deleting my post where I admit to texting while driving?

Are you suggesting that the mods routinely delete posts that might someday be viewed in a negative light in court? Seems like that’d be a lot of work every day and run contrary to the spirit of this place where you’re kinda free to express yourself and are ultimately accountable for what you say. I do think that the mods would probably delete anything blatantly illegal, ie how to convert to full auto, for the good of the forum, but otherwise I just don’t like the “we’re looking out for you because you’re posting stupid stuff” vibe.
 
Are you suggesting that the mods routinely delete posts that might someday be viewed in a negative light in court?.

What he's asking for is even more asinine. This is the sequence of events he's proposed....

1. Tans posts stupid crap/chest thumping keyboard hero nonsense that he ought not
2. Tans shoots somebody in real life
3. Mods scramble to delete his ridiculous diatribes per this "policy"
4. Forum owners tell DA to pound sand if asked for data
 
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What he's asking for is even more asinine. This is the sequence of events he's proposed....

1. Tans posts stupid crap/chest thumping keyboard hero nonsense that he ought not
2. Tans shoots somebody in real life
3. Mods scramble to delete his ridiculous diatribes per this "policy"
4. Forum owners tell DA to pound sand if asked for data

If only there was some way to avoid the problem in the first place...
 
You could always move to Costa Rica or Belize or wherever and not worry about it.

Is he the guy that constantly talked about moving to south america back on csc? I didnt think about it till you said that, but now remember someone that always talked about how bad America was getting and how he was getting out...just as soon as X Y and Z work out perfectly.
 
Is he the guy that constantly talked about moving to south america back on Crack Smoking Canadians? I didnt think about it till you said that, but now remember someone that always talked about how bad America was getting and how he was getting out...just as soon as X Y and Z work out perfectly.


Yup.
 
Oh, right on. Well best of luck in whatever he does, I wish him no harm/bad situation, but if he's that worried he shouldnt talk about crazy stuff that might come back to bite him in the rear end
 
My experience with censors is that user deleted stuff really isn’t deleted, it’s just not visible unless you’re a mod or an admin in which case you can read or restore it.
Having admined / modded a few boards in the past, nothing is truely deleted.

A super admin, I’ve been that guy before, who has access to server can delete what’s on the server, and make it a huge pita, but they could still physically go to that server and find what they need unless you took The Hillary Clinton route, physically destroying it. Still then it’s probably cached out there on the Internet somewhere, especially if it was open to public viewing, screenshots by users, or ever hacked.

What’s being asked of a single user would be hard, without wiping the board and every trace. That’s why forums should be careful what content they allow, and why users should be careful with what content they post.

As I’ve said before, to no avail, a lot of stuff can be used as negative propaganda against the 2a movement or used against individuals in court.
 
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What he's asking for is even more asinine. This is the sequence of events he's proposed....

1. Tans posts stupid crap/chest thumping keyboard hero nonsense that he ought not
2. Tans shoots somebody in real life
3. Mods scramble to delete his ridiculous diatribes per this "policy"
4. Forum owners tell DA to pound sand if asked for data
IMO the response as an owner of a forum should be, “ do you have a warrant?” and I also wouldn’t help search, only provide them access to the specific data concerning a warrant. Doing what the law required, nothing more or less. They’d have no business combing over all user data, warrants aren’t supposed to be that broad.
 
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