Poll-At what price point do you get a quality, stake your life reliability?
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711b
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Yeah, I'm a bit curious why people are wanting to use the "if I were going to do battle tomorrow" criterion since they're NOT going to do battle tomorrow -- and if they were, would either be issued their rife or have quite a good choice of possibilities as a professional operator. Yeah, I guess if I were going to do battle tomorrow I might not select an S&W M&P AR -- but then I think I'd be unlikely to select any AR. But why use an unrealistic and fanciful criterion like that at all? Or are you using that criterion in order to be sure you get the most reliable and effective product for your combat use -- even though you won't be using it in combat? And that didn't seem to be the intent of the how the poll question was stated -- which I took to be in terms of reliable functioning, and not regarding military or paramilitary use and demands.
So now, just color me confused about the whole thing. 😂 But there's been some good information exposed in the thread in any event.
So now, just color me confused about the whole thing. 😂 But there's been some good information exposed in the thread in any event.
711b
Well-Known Member
Being able to get through a single mag without failure is a pretty low bar. I'm not sure anyone evaluating a weapon for combat reliability would be willing to stop the tests at that stage.
I used that criterion because for me, to measure 'dependability' I'd like to see how it does over time in battlefield conditions i.e. adverse conditions and a high round count. A Hi-Point can work perfectly if you take it to the range and shoot a few mags through it twice a year.
Also, the OP is asking about AR's specifically. A parts guns that functions "flawlessly" at the range every so often isn't how I measure dependability.
But that's just an explanation as to why I use that as a criterion.
OP
The original post says nothing about “combat”. That is your interpretation of “stake your life”. Stake your life could easily mean shooting a rabid fox, and considering rabies is 100% fatal in humans while “combat” is not I would consider this scenario more appropriate.
That said there was some thought put into the phrasing. I wanted to put emphasis on reliability rather than “value” and I wanted to stress what price point would get you to (nearly) 100% bang not click. Unless it is a complete lemon straight out of the factory I have found most AR’s are 99.5%+. What gets you to the 99.95% level was my question.
P.S. Dark humor, but imagine if you will someone desperately trying to blast a rabid fox at close range with a FAL...
711b
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That's pretty much the same criterion I used when I bought my Browning Hi Power in 1974. But I never took combat to be the defining environment since it had been used over the decades in a number of other situations (many police forces, internationally, for example), and had proven itself well in all of those. For a rifle's reliability, I would probably start with the same approach and open the sample space to those other types of organizations rather than just to "combat" ones, but the combat one's work for that purpose.
On the other hand, if I valued "reliability" at a reasonable price and with decent "minute of body" accuracy within, say, 200 yds., and bang for the buck, I'd be more inclined towards the works of our old buddies and Siminov and Kalashnikov. But as you say, the post is focused on the ARs.
Chuckman
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The Colt 6920.is as close to the original TDP as you can get. Of course FM makes a great deal of the ARs the military uses now as well as Colt.
I never had any issue with the Colt, or the FN.
@711b , you really don't have a lot of choice in the military, you get what you're issued, so you're correct about that. Sure, SOF does have a little more latitude and choice, but they are the 1%.
The $500 ARs now are a light-year better than $500 ARs 20 years ago. Manufacturing is better, quality assurance and quality control are better, worksmanship is better.
711b
Well-Known Member
Definitely not MY interpretation of "stake your life" since it's the criterion I'm actually questioning.
711b
Well-Known Member
I was actually surprised to discover how much I admired the basic engineering of the S&W AR my wife got -- leaving the trigger aside, and I also understand the design and maintenance issues that resulted in that. I don't think I'd buy one for myself, but it is a pretty neat little gun with some interesting and good features. I see its utility and attraction.
I just generally don't care for semi-auto rifles (particularly gas operated), though I've had several over the years (including an M-14 I used to shoot in matches). But the AR has turned out to be a good architecture.
I do have an S&W AR 15-22 that I use on a regular basis for vermin control. The semi-auto action drives me nuts for that, but it's a nice little .22 and quite accurate.
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Well not exactly, don't you trust your life to every car you get in?
It seems to me that lots of people have the idea that anything firearm related has to be 99.99% reliable to "trust my life" to it. In any life threatening situation what are the odds something else will go wrong? Are your skills, mindset, and dumb luck (level of Murphy) 99.99% reliable?
My criteria is if I can put a few mags through it with no malfunctions then the odds are much higher something else will negatively affect my performance/outcome more than the firearm will.
Sure, you can use any number of areas - I choose combat use as they're almost always used in worse conditions and more rounds fired in training and anger than a firearm in police use.
First you say that combat is a silly standard, then you use it as a standard.
So tell me, how many times in a year does a civilian use an AR legally in a confrontation?
and of those very few times, how often are more than 20 rounds fired or needed?
I think it’s pretty fair to say that perfect operation for 20 rounds is all a civilian will need 99.99999999% of the time, roughly once in a million lifetimes, hence that’s my standard.
FWIW, all of my guns are much more reliable than that, I shoot many thousands of rounds to be very certain that a gun will shoot 20 without fail.
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Shotgun, right tool for the job an' all. I wouldn't use an AR or any rifle up close for a fox.
Fun thread!
711b
Well-Known Member
Well, combat isn't a silly standard for a gun that's actually to be used in combat -- which wasn't the case being posed here. But I haven't used it as a standard. I was only responding to someone who suggested that "battle reliability" meant that a gun could get through a single mag without malfunction.
I don't really disagree with this, and I think I just misinterpreted what you said. You weren't really saying that "battle reliability means ...". You meant to say that the only "battles" that typical civilians will ever be in were ones in which a single mag should suffice -- i.e., that typical civilians won't be in battles at all. I'm inclined to agree with that (recognizing that there may be some outliers and exceptions at odd times).
711b
Well-Known Member
I totally agree with the superiority of the shotgun for most homeowner applications. However, I confess that I've recently been giving serious thought to the AR 15-22 (with high intensity light and low power scope) as a nighttime tool on some intruders -- in order to avoid collateral damage from shot in expected fields of fire. My impression from after-dark sounds at various times, is that people around here vacillate between the two choices -- probably for similar reasons. But I would not consider my wife's AR for such an application.
I have owned, and carried in the line of duty everything from the A2, to the M4, and only one Ban era rifle, a Colt Match HBAR.
Of the range of pricing, I picked 600-999 because my go to's (Armalite AR10B, Bushmaster Patrolmans Carbine) in their stock set ups are, or were both below the 1000 dollar threshold.
The Stag Arms AR I carried as a patrol rifle is left out because it's the exception to the poll.
Of the listed options, Colt, Armalite, Bushmaster, Spikes, Smith & Wesson, Aero Precision, et. al, have all worked as advertised when I've had the chance to own them.
The boutique guns, DD, KAC, and others, I can't say, wouldn't mind adding the ownership and trigger time to my resume', but I can't justify it.
As the saying goes, "it is, what it is", and I'm fine with it, my Bushmaster Patrolmans carbine set up Israeli style hasn't let me down yet....
Of the range of pricing, I picked 600-999 because my go to's (Armalite AR10B, Bushmaster Patrolmans Carbine) in their stock set ups are, or were both below the 1000 dollar threshold.
The Stag Arms AR I carried as a patrol rifle is left out because it's the exception to the poll.
Of the listed options, Colt, Armalite, Bushmaster, Spikes, Smith & Wesson, Aero Precision, et. al, have all worked as advertised when I've had the chance to own them.
The boutique guns, DD, KAC, and others, I can't say, wouldn't mind adding the ownership and trigger time to my resume', but I can't justify it.
As the saying goes, "it is, what it is", and I'm fine with it, my Bushmaster Patrolmans carbine set up Israeli style hasn't let me down yet....
I did the $600-1k range...mainly because I feel the "standards" have been set by Colt/SW/Aero and the like.
That said...If I walked into a room with a rack full of Colts on one side and >my< poverty pony PSA build on the other...Id grab mine, because I know it runs.
That said...If I walked into a room with a rack full of Colts on one side and >my< poverty pony PSA build on the other...Id grab mine, because I know it runs.
I've "built" all mine for under $1k, first was pushing two pins. That one tore rims off and eventually broke a bolt around 5k rounds, it was pretty over gassed, going to a heavier buffer after that helped. Never had any other reliability issues from a 5.56 gun that adding oil didn't cure. Not much on cleaning.
To answer the poll. Probably a Colt, Aero, SA Saint, or S&W M&P in that order.
I bought my first AR during the ban @20 years ago. It was a Olympic Arms Plinker. Gunbroker purchase for @$500. I wanted to test the rifle and the platform, as the son of a Vietnam, Combat Marine who told me how they cleaned their rifles in the shower every time they got one. Given, he was a door gunner on a Chinook so not much use for it (except the 3 times they were shot down). I wanted to see for myself. Fired @500 rounds of Wolf and Tula through it in practice and local matches before it got dirty enough to start to malfunction and I decided to clean it. Was fine after that. I was sold on the platform. Second AR was bought @2008 right before the election for @$750. It was a used 16" free floated and fluted barrel rifle with a lower from a company that I barely recognized. I shot the rifle for years and finally started having issues. Gunsmith said the lower pin holes had wallowed out. I suspect the previous owner had used it for full auto (knowing the dealer). I replaced the lower with an Aero Precision and it went right back to being just as reliable as it always had been. Started shooting more 3 gun and added a red dot @2019 when the price of ammo went up and my @50 year old eyes were having trouble with iron sights at @200 yards. Wanted to upgrade and "retire" my 2008 era AR (now my backkup) so put a Luthar upper (google it if you're curious) on an Aero Precision Lower with a Hyperfire basic trigger that I picked up off a prize table. Been running it with a vortex optic for @2 years and it's been excellent with all the Tula I can get my hands on and the occasional brass case (for the steel targets at matches). I'm sold on the platform, due to my personal experience.
All that being said, I do trust the platform and would stake my life on it. This is my rifle, there are many like it, bu this one is mine.
Prefer 308 (silly me) but just don't have enough 308 rounds down range or know my M1a1 well enough to bet my life on it. And if it was an EOW/life or death, I think I'd prefer a FN/FAL if or my Van Comp'd Mossberg 590. And I don't even own a FAL. Yet. LOL.
I bought my first AR during the ban @20 years ago. It was a Olympic Arms Plinker. Gunbroker purchase for @$500. I wanted to test the rifle and the platform, as the son of a Vietnam, Combat Marine who told me how they cleaned their rifles in the shower every time they got one. Given, he was a door gunner on a Chinook so not much use for it (except the 3 times they were shot down). I wanted to see for myself. Fired @500 rounds of Wolf and Tula through it in practice and local matches before it got dirty enough to start to malfunction and I decided to clean it. Was fine after that. I was sold on the platform. Second AR was bought @2008 right before the election for @$750. It was a used 16" free floated and fluted barrel rifle with a lower from a company that I barely recognized. I shot the rifle for years and finally started having issues. Gunsmith said the lower pin holes had wallowed out. I suspect the previous owner had used it for full auto (knowing the dealer). I replaced the lower with an Aero Precision and it went right back to being just as reliable as it always had been. Started shooting more 3 gun and added a red dot @2019 when the price of ammo went up and my @50 year old eyes were having trouble with iron sights at @200 yards. Wanted to upgrade and "retire" my 2008 era AR (now my backkup) so put a Luthar upper (google it if you're curious) on an Aero Precision Lower with a Hyperfire basic trigger that I picked up off a prize table. Been running it with a vortex optic for @2 years and it's been excellent with all the Tula I can get my hands on and the occasional brass case (for the steel targets at matches). I'm sold on the platform, due to my personal experience.
All that being said, I do trust the platform and would stake my life on it. This is my rifle, there are many like it, bu this one is mine.
Prefer 308 (silly me) but just don't have enough 308 rounds down range or know my M1a1 well enough to bet my life on it. And if it was an EOW/life or death, I think I'd prefer a FN/FAL if or my Van Comp'd Mossberg 590. And I don't even own a FAL. Yet. LOL.
It all comes down to quality control. Large manufacturing companies are not checking each and every part, they are spot checking the batch. Some of the small builders are checking each and every part, that takes time and money.
Cole_McD
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I voted 600-999 since no accessories is a stipulation.
Aero precision is the clear and obvious example to me of a great rifle at a great price.
Aero precision is the clear and obvious example to me of a great rifle at a great price.
It's been said multiple times now, the M&P is king for a basic, quality gun that doesn't break the bank. I'd trust my life to it. I put new furniture on mine and now it sits at my bug out location. That being said, I'd much rather have my personal builds. I would only feel outgunned with my M&P if I were shooting distance.
I think you missed my point bro.
Which was: spending more money on a car does't necessarily equate to more trust in it.
This, right here....
It doesnt matter where it came from. It does not matter who made it... or if it is a piece meal build.
Its a question of if *you* know it will run.
Sure, you can stack the deck in your favor, and should do so, but have we not all seen lemons from brands that should not have them? I know ive seen some crazy stuff.