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rmd0694

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UPDATE: this was Academy’s policy over a misunderstanding when doing the 4473 form. I went to another FFL today and learned I’m perfectly allowed to carry after conducting a full background check through NICS. I was able to purchase a firearm today from a local gun store.
 
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What does the form ask specifically?

Guess I'll look it up in the meantime.
 
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In question 21 g …

21 g. Have you ever been adjudicated as a mental defective OR have you ever been committed to a mental institution?

… answering “yes” is a disqualification to all (including 21g) but 1 of the questions in that section.
 
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NCFubar said:
In question 21 g …

21 g. Have you ever been adjudicated as a mental defective OR have you ever been committed to a mental institution?

… answering “yes” is a disqualification to all but 1 of the question in that section.
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This is what the employee told me I got disqualified for and said I should talk to a lawyer about getting it taken off my record. I was wondering what would happen if I went to another store and answered no to that question.
 
rmd0694 said:
This is what the employee told me I got disqualified for and said I should talk to a lawyer about getting it taken off my record. I was wondering what would happen if I went to another store and answered no to that question.
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Don’t do that. Have your friends that had you committed pay for you a lawyer. They wanted to help then, let them help now.
 
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rmd0694 said:
This is what the employee told me I got disqualified for and said I should talk to a lawyer about getting it taken off my record. I was wondering what would happen if I went to another store and answered no to that question.
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You talking federal offense now.

What newspaper do you work for, WRAL?
 
rmd0694 said:
This is what the employee told me I got disqualified for and said I should talk to a lawyer about getting it taken off my record. I was wondering what would happen if I went to another store and answered no to that question.
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No, I would not actually try this.
 
Shady Grady said:
You talking federal offense now.

What newspaper do you work for, WRAL?
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That’s funny!

Assuming this is sincere, you do not want to falsify the form, that’s a federal crime. No good way to get around it, but at 30 I’d think a lawyer could get it cleaned up.

Oh, and you can’t buy from folks here because we know you’re a prohibited person, and you can’t buy from anyone else because you’ll have to disclose the same. For now get an attorney, a baton and so e pepper spray,
 
Time for a lawyer. Seeing as your in Winston Salem, I have had a lot of positive experience with the fairly firm Wyatt Early Harris and Wheeler in High Point. They might have a lawyer that can help you. You will probably have to make some sort of case and go before a judge, possibly getting some sort of evaluation. Don't know. I would be surprised, though, if there isn't some way to get this removed.
 
GymB said:
That’s funny!

Assuming this is sincere, you do not want to falsify the form, that’s a federal crime. No good way to get around it, but at 30 I’d think a lawyer could get it cleaned up.

Oh, and you can’t buy from folks here because we know you’re a prohibited person, and you can’t buy from anyone else because you’ll have to disclose the same. For now get an attorney, a baton and so e pepper spray,
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I can’t even tell you how much this sucks. I know lying would be a crime and I have no interest in implicating anyone or myself. I’ve just spent so much time researching what I wanted and went into the store fully confident only to have one weird part of my past catch up to me.
 
rmd0694 said:
This is what the employee told me I got disqualified for and said I should talk to a lawyer about getting it taken off my record. I was wondering what would happen if I went to another store and answered no to that question.
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What record are you speaking of? What type of commitment? I am no attorney and do not know exactly what ATF means by “committed”? Does that mean a simple self checkin or a 72 hour hold or full on court mandated? You need to review you situation and apply it accordingly … tread lightly this is a federal matter with some major legal ramifications.

In the 4473 instructions it says …

Question 21.g.

Adjudicated as a Mental Defective: A determination by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority that a person, as a result of marked subnormal intelligence, or mental illness, incompetency, condition, or disease: (1) is a danger to himself or to others; or (2) lacks the mental capacity to contract or manage his own affairs. This term shall include: (1) a finding of insanity by a court in a criminal case; and (2) those persons found incompetent to stand trial or found not guilty by reason of lack of mental responsibility.


Committed to a Mental Institution: A formal commitment of a person to a mental institution by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority. The term includes a commitment to a mental institution involuntarily. The term includes commitment for mental defectiveness or mental illness. It also includes commitments for other reasons, such as for drug use. The term does not include a person in a mental institution for observation or a voluntary admission to a mental institution.


EXCEPTION: Under the NICS Improvement Amendments Act of 2007, a person who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or committed to a mental institution in a State proceeding is not prohibited by the adjudication or commitment if the person has been granted relief by the adjudicating/committing State pursuant to a qualifying mental health relief from disabilities program. Also, a person who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or committed to a mental institution by a department or agency of Federal Government is not prohibited by the adjudication or commitment if either: (a) the person’s adjudication or commitment was set aside or expunged by the adjudicating/committing agency; (b) the person has been fully released or discharged from all mandatory treatment, supervision, or monitoring by the agency; (c) the person was found by the agency to no longer suffer from the mental health condition that served as the basis of the initial adjudication/ commitment; (d) the adjudication or commitment, respectively, is based solely on a medical finding of disability, without an opportunity for a hearing by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority, and the person has not been adjudicated as a mental defective consistent with 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(4); or (e) the person was granted relief from the adjudicating/committing agency pursuant to a qualified mental health relief from disabilities program. This exception to an adjudication or commitment by a Federal department or agency does not apply to any person who was adjudicated to be not guilty by reason of insanity, or based on lack of mental responsibility, or found incompetent to stand trial, in any criminal case or under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Persons who fall within one of the above exceptions should answer “no” to question 21.g.
 
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So based on part (b) I’m fine to answer “no” to that question? Like I said this was 12 years ago, I was reevaluated and fully released with no supervision or follow up.
 
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NCFubar said:
What record are you speaking of? What type of commitment? I am no attorney and do not know exactly what ATF means by “committed”? Does that mean a simple self checkin or a 72 hour hold or full on court mandated? You need to review you situation and apply it accordingly …

In the 4473 instructions it says …

Question 21.g.

Adjudicated as a Mental Defective: A determination by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority that a person, as a result of marked subnormal intelligence, or mental illness, incompetency, condition, or disease: (1) is a danger to himself or to others; or (2) lacks the mental capacity to contract or manage his own affairs. This term shall include: (1) a finding of insanity by a court in a criminal case; and (2) those persons found incompetent to stand trial or found not guilty by reason of lack of mental responsibility.


Committed to a Mental Institution: A formal commitment of a person to a mental institution by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority. The term includes a commitment to a mental institution involuntarily. The term includes commitment for mental defectiveness or mental illness. It also includes commitments for other reasons, such as for drug use. The term does not include a person in a mental institution for observation or a voluntary admission to a mental institution.


EXCEPTION: Under the NICS Improvement Amendments Act of 2007, a person who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or committed to a mental institution in a State proceeding is not prohibited by the adjudication or commitment if the person has been granted relief by the adjudicating/committing State pursuant to a qualifying mental health relief from disabilities program. Also, a person who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or committed to a mental institution by a department or agency of Federal Government is not prohibited by the adjudication or commitment if either: (a) the person’s adjudication or commitment was set aside or expunged by the adjudicating/committing agency; (b) the person has been fully released or discharged from all mandatory treatment, supervision, or monitoring by the agency; (c) the person was found by the agency to no longer suffer from the mental health condition that served as the basis of the initial adjudication/ commitment; (d) the adjudication or commitment, respectively, is based solely on a medical finding of disability, without an opportunity for a hearing by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority, and the person has not been adjudicated as a mental defective consistent with 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(4); or (e) the person was granted relief from the adjudicating/committing agency pursuant to a qualified mental health relief from disabilities program. This exception to an adjudication or commitment by a Federal department or agency does not apply to any person who was adjudicated to be not guilty by reason of insanity, or based on lack of mental responsibility, or found incompetent to stand trial, in any criminal case or under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Persons who fall within one of the above exceptions should answer “no” to question 21.g.
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I read through the exceptions piece and think I fall into it. Technically the cop who brought me to the hospital is who had me involuntarily committed. I didn’t know of this being part of my past until I thought over the question and said yes. That’s why I say record. I don’t have an actual “record” of crimes or anything. Just that involuntary commitment from 12 years ago
 
rmd0694 said:
So based on part (b) I’m fine to answer “no” to that question? Like I said this was 12 years ago, I was reevaluated and fully released with no supervision or follow up.
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Considering the penalties if you are wrong, that is a question for a lawyer.
 
I don’t think the police can “have you committed”. They can execute a 24 hour involuntary hold where a medical professional assesses you. The medical professional is the one that can have you committed.

So were you committed or just held for evaluation and released?

How long were you involuntarily in custody?

I did NOT sleep at a holiday inn…
 
The last legal consultation I did was $250, and I think that would be the best place to start. Maybe it ends up costing a few grand in the end but that’s still a bargain to be confident you’re not breaking federal law.

Go find an attorney.
 
Catfish said:
If it was me, I would follow the instructions on the form. I would not hire a lawyer unless I was turned down by NICS. That's just me though.
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I think I’m about to go straight back to the store and ask to retake it because the law h
P01135809 said:
I don’t think the police can “have you committed”. They can execute a 24 hour involuntary hold where a medical professional assesses you. The medical professional is the one that can have you committed.

So were you committed or just held for evaluation and released?

How long were you involuntarily in custody?

I did NOT sleep at a holiday inn…
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yes, the officer took me in and a medical professional had me held there. Very odd timeline too: It was over Memorial Day weekend and I specifically remember how I was held from Saturday to Tuesday because of the holiday on Monday.
 
rmd0694 said:
yes, the officer took me in and a medical professional had me held there. Very odd timeline too: It was over Memorial Day weekend and I specifically remember how I was held from Saturday to Tuesday because of the holiday on Monday.
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Definitely lawyer time. Being held for evaluation and released with no follow-up very likely doesn't count as involuntary commitment, which should require a judge to sign off on.
 
Here's another approach: Get your CHP. That process will either give you the all clear or let you know what problems are in your record and likely for less than the cost of an attorney consultation.
 
rmd0694 said:
I think I’m about to go straight back to the store and ask to retake it because the law h

yes, the officer took me in and a medical professional had me held there. Very odd timeline too: It was over Memorial Day weekend and I specifically remember how I was held from Saturday to Tuesday because of the holiday on Monday.
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Hold on man
Are you sure you meet the definition of "committed"?
California has a 5150 hold, where they can haul anybody in for 72hrs for observation. a 5150 is NOT commitment, even though you are being held there against your will. Even if a shrink Dr says "yes, hold that person against their will" it is NOT commitment if it is on a short term hold for observation.
Other states have different things, but most states have a provision to hold somebody for observation that isn't considered commitment.

Carefully read ALL of that guidance @NCFubar posted
"The term does not include a person in a mental institution for observation or a voluntary admission to a mental institution."

your saturday to tuesday thing very well might have been a "let's check this guy out" and then they had to let you go because you were not committed.

p.s. i can tell you for a fact that a CA 5150 hold without commitment does not follow to other states... I won't say how I know, but I know.
 
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I think this answered it. I was put on a 72 hour emergency hold and when I looked that up I remembered they evaluated me for involuntary commitment and I was discharged. And with section b) “the person has been fully released or discharged from all mandatory treatment, supervision, or monitoring by the agency” I qualify. It seems to me like I should have answered no to the question as it doesn’t pertain to my situation.
 
rmd0694 said:
I think this answered it. I was put on a 72 hour emergency hold and when I looked that up I remembered they evaluated me for involuntary commitment and I was discharged. And with section b) “the person has been fully released or discharged from all mandatory treatment, supervision, or monitoring by the agency” I qualify. It seems to me like I should have answered no to the question as it doesn’t pertain to my situation.
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While that sounds probable the money for the legal advise would probably still be well spent. Us normal people do not get away with getting these forms wrong.
 
Talked to an expert at Academy Sports this morning and I have a clear answer. I was never ordered to be committed and that’s what the Feds care about. I answered the question wrong and that shut down the sale via store policy. Nothing was submitted to NICS and the gun expert flat out told me “academy can’t sell you one for 30 days but there’s plenty of places in town that will.” Which tells me I’m completely fine to go correct this mistake at another FFL.
 
rmd0694 said:
Talked to an expert at Academy Sports this morning and I have a clear answer. I was never ordered to be committed and that’s what the Feds care about. I answered the question wrong and that shut down the sale via store policy. Nothing was submitted to NICS and the gun expert flat out told me “academy can’t sell you one for 30 days but there’s plenty of places in town that will.” Which tells me I’m completely fine to go correct this mistake at another FFL.
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1. There are nice swimming trunks and baseball equipment at academy sports. There are NOT legal experts at academy sports.

2. You seem to be seeking a quick answer to a question that could cause you major problems. Quick answers are rarely the right ones. The answer is to hire an attorney and let them advise you.

3. Changing answers on federal documents, or being “pretty sure”about the answers is unwise. Answer: attorney.

4. The forum members have provided excellent advice including possible counsel recommendations.
 
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