Really big firework questions

COLTIMPALA

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Curious if any of our members are pyro guys. I've been learning about making my own aerial shells and wondered what the professionals at small town shows are using. Are the pros using 4 inch shells or something larger? I figured major cities use big shells (8-12"?) but curious if anyone knows what I'm seeing in our small town shows for reference sake in comparison to consumer fireworks.
 
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Curious if any of our members are pyro guys. I've been learning about making my own aerial shells and wondered what the professionals at small town shows are using. Are the pros using 4 inch shells or something larger? I figured major cities use big shells (8-12"?) but curious if anyone knows what I'm seeing in our small town shows for reference sake in comparison to consumer fireworks.
@Les White
 
Curious if any of our members are pyro guys. Wondered what the professionals at small town shows are using. Are the pros using 4 inch shells or something larger? I figured major cities use big shells (8-12"?) but curious if anyone knows what I'm seeing in our small town shows for reference sake in comparison to consumer fireworks.

I don't think you realize what a can of worms you just opened.

Unfortunately there's no simple answer as to what we use. It's generally based on the physical location, venue, and budget.

Physical location: Important as there are footage minimums that are determined by shell size; the rule of thumb is 70' feet per 1" of the maximum size of shell you're going to shoot. So if your biggest shell is a 3" you need a clear 210' in all directions, 6" would be 420', 10" 700', etc.. No structures, no spectators, no vehicles, no power lines, no trees. Trees, power lines, and structures can be fudged a little, as long as they're not directly overhead it's probably ok, if the structure is just a small equipment shed or metal roof building then it's probably ok; the shooter and/or the AHJ will have the final say - the shooter is often the AHJ. Keep in mind these footages are MINIMUMS, we frequently require more depending on location/venue, minimums also double in the presence of hazmat, hospitals, mental institutions, prisons, etc..

Venue: Obviously a rock band wouldn't want a full blown fireworks show - and probably wouldn't have the footage for it anyway - but may want some low level / close proximity effects. The Winston Salem Dash wants a huge full on fireworks show but doesn't have the footage or budget. The Thomasville HiToms doesn't really have the budget or footage so they settle for a variety of 1.3g and 1.4g cakes. (cake, a box of prestrung aerial fireworks in individual limited use mortars, can be small 6"x6" or the size of a washing machine. Shell size can be from 0.5" to 4") For really small shows we may also use the 1.75" "festival balls" commonly sold in SC because the footage requirement is so small, but we use more robust mortars than the limited use disposable mortars that come with them when sold to consumers. It's becoming increasingly rare to find a venue with the footage to shoot the bigger mortars - upwards of 6" (8, 10, 12, 16, and 24 are the most typical but anything over 12 is exceedingly rare) - and those require special handing and firing accommodations. Most low level stuff has to be fired electrically for safety and timing, most stuff greater than 6" has to be fired electrically for safety tho there are some exceptions, everything in between we can hand fire. In my 25 years of shooting 99% of my shows have been handfired. (sidebar, an electrically fired show is generally double the cost. Each "e-match" is an additional $1 per queue, plus double the labor to get the shell show ready. If you want it choreographed to music double the cost again.)

Budget: Most pyro companies buy their product direct from China by the container. Since the scamdemic transportation and insurance costs have almost tripled while the cost of the fireworks themselves have nearly doubled. There are some companies in the US that make fireworks, but very few that do it as their primary business. Zambelli comes to mind. American made shells are usually high quality, but also high cost. A generic 3" color shell from China may cost $1 while a US made generic 3" color shell may be $5 and up. Surprisingly the cost of the fireworks isn't the biggest factor in the price of a show. Insurance is. The company I work for carries a $5 million binder that covers transportation and the show.

So if you've got a 8500 budget, have 700 feet of physical location, want the longest show you can get using the biggest shells - you have a decision to make. One 10" shell costs as much as 250 3" shells. You can have a pretty impressive show using a mixture of 3's, 4's, 5's, and 6's that'll last 25 minutes. Or you can have a show using 10's that'll last 5 minutes.

I'm at work now, I have some actual real world examples at home of cost and shell counts I'll post tomorrow.

Well, I found one on my phone, I still have another to post tomorrow.

A recent small town show with an $8k budget and 400ft of available space. Determination was to use smaller shells to maximize duration.

Opening Barrage:
10 - 3" Assorted Finale Color w/tail
10 - 3" Finale Salutes w/tail
6 - 4" Finale Color/Salute w/tail

Sidebar, finale shells come pre strung together in specific quantities. 3" racks have 10 mortars tubes each, the shells come strung together in quantities of 10. 4" racks have 6, 5" racks have 5, 6" racks have 4. Generally greater than 6" is individual tubes or custom made racks; the weight of the shells prevents them from being pre strung.

Main Body:
108 - 3" Assorted Aerial Shells w/tail
36 - 3" Assorted Premium Grade Aerial Shells w/tail (premium in this size would be a smiley, ring, bowtie, heart, canister, etc)
72 - 4" Assorted Aerial Shells w/tail
36 - 4" Assorted Premium Grade Aerial Shells w/tail (premium in this size would be canister shells, double break with salute, etc)

Grand Finale:
130 - 3" Assorted Aerial Shells w/tail
30 - 3" Finale Salutes w/tail
30 - 4" Finale Color/Salute w/tail

This show ran about 15 minutes.

So, 320 3" shells and 144 4" shells for a total of 464 shells. $8,000. Biggest deciding factor was budget.
 
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I don't think you realize what a can of worms you just opened.

Unfortunately there's no simple answer as to what we use. It's generally based on the physical location, venue, and budget.

Physical location: Important as there are footage minimums that are determined by shell size; the rule of thumb is 70' feet per 1" of the maximum size of shell you're going to shoot. So if your biggest shell is a 3" you need a clear 210' in all directions, 6" would be 420', 10" 700', etc.. No structures, no spectators, no vehicles, no power lines, no trees. Trees, power lines, and structures can be fudged a little, as long as they're not directly overhead it's probably ok, if the structure is just a small equipment shed or metal roof building then it's probably ok; the shooter and/or the AHJ will have the final say - the shooter is often the AHJ. Keep in mind these footages are MINIMUMS, we frequently require more depending on location/venue, minimums also double in the presence of hazmat, hospitals, mental institutions, prisons, etc..

Venue: Obviously a rock band wouldn't want a full blown fireworks show - and probably wouldn't have the footage for it anyway - but may want some low level / close proximity effects. The Winston Salem Dash wants a huge full on fireworks show but doesn't have the footage or budget. The Thomasville HiToms doesn't really have the budget or footage so they settle for a variety of 1.3g and 1.4g cakes. (cake, a box of prestrung aerial fireworks in individual limited use mortars, can be small 6"x6" or the size of a washing machine. Shell size can be from 0.5" to 4") For really small shows we may also use the 1.75" "festival balls" commonly sold in SC because the footage requirement is so small, but we use more robust mortars than the limited use disposable mortars that come with them when sold to consumers. It's becoming increasingly rare to find a venue with the footage to shoot the bigger mortars - upwards of 6" (8, 10, 12, 16, and 24 are the most typical but anything over 12 is exceedingly rare) - and those require special handing and firing accommodations. Most low level stuff has to be fired electrically for safety and timing, most stuff greater than 6" has to be fired electrically for safety tho there are some exceptions, everything in between we can hand fire. In my 25 years of shooting 99% of my shows have been handfired. (sidebar, an electrically fired show is generally double the cost. Each "e-match" is an additional $1 per queue, plus double the labor to get the shell show ready. If you want it choreographed to music double the cost again.)

Budget: Most pyro companies buy their product direct from China by the container. Since the scamdemic transportation and insurance costs have almost tripled while the cost of the fireworks themselves have nearly doubled. There are some companies in the US that make fireworks, but very few that do it as their primary business. Zambelli comes to mind. American made shells are usually high quality, but also high cost. A generic 3" color shell from China may cost $1 while a US made generic 3" color shell may be $5 and up. Surprisingly the cost of the fireworks isn't the biggest factor in the price of a show. Insurance is. The company I work for carries a $5 million binder that covers transportation and the show.

So if you've got a 8500 budget, have 700 feet of physical location, want the longest show you can get using the biggest shells - you have a decision to make. One 10" shell costs as much as 250 3" shells. You can have a pretty impressive show using a mixture of 3's, 4's, 5's, and 6's that'll last 25 minutes. Or you can have a show using 10's that'll last 5 minutes.

I'm at work now, I have some actual real world examples at home of cost and shell counts I'll post tomorrow.

Well, I found one on my phone, I still have another to post tomorrow.

A recent small town show with an $8k budget and 400ft of available space. Determination was to use smaller shells to maximize duration.

Opening Barrage:
10 - 3" Assorted Finale Color w/tail
10 - 3" Finale Salutes w/tail
6 - 4" Finale Color/Salute w/tail

Sidebar, finale shells come pre strung together in specific quantities. 3" racks have 10 mortars tubes each, the shells come strung together in quantities of 10. 4" racks have 6, 5" racks have 5, 6" racks have 4. Generally greater than 6" is individual tubes or custom made racks; the weight of the shells prevents them from being pre strung.

Main Body:
108 - 3" Assorted Aerial Shells w/tail
36 - 3" Assorted Premium Grade Aerial Shells w/tail (premium in this size would be a smiley, ring, bowtie, heart, canister, etc)
72 - 4" Assorted Aerial Shells w/tail
36 - 4" Assorted Premium Grade Aerial Shells w/tail (premium in this size would be canister shells, double break with salute, etc)

Grand Finale:
130 - 3" Assorted Aerial Shells w/tail
30 - 3" Finale Salutes w/tail
30 - 4" Finale Color/Salute w/tail

This show ran about 15 minutes.

So, 320 3" shells and 144 4" shells for a total of 464 shells. $8,000. Biggest deciding factor was budget.
You have exceeded my wildest expectations of a response. Really, I appreciate your time to explain this in such detail and this answers not just my original question but also a couple others regarding safe distances. When I mentioned larger city shows I was figuring NYC for example would probably use 8-12 inch shells for their major shows but that's just a guess.
 
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I don't think you realize what a can of worms you just opened.

Unfortunately there's no simple answer as to what we use. It's generally based on the physical location, venue, and budget.

Physical location: Important as there are footage minimums that are determined by shell size; the rule of thumb is 70' feet per 1" of the maximum size of shell you're going to shoot. So if your biggest shell is a 3" you need a clear 210' in all directions, 6" would be 420', 10" 700', etc.. No structures, no spectators, no vehicles, no power lines, no trees. Trees, power lines, and structures can be fudged a little, as long as they're not directly overhead it's probably ok, if the structure is just a small equipment shed or metal roof building then it's probably ok; the shooter and/or the AHJ will have the final say - the shooter is often the AHJ. Keep in mind these footages are MINIMUMS, we frequently require more depending on location/venue, minimums also double in the presence of hazmat, hospitals, mental institutions, prisons, etc..

Venue: Obviously a rock band wouldn't want a full blown fireworks show - and probably wouldn't have the footage for it anyway - but may want some low level / close proximity effects. The Winston Salem Dash wants a huge full on fireworks show but doesn't have the footage or budget. The Thomasville HiToms doesn't really have the budget or footage so they settle for a variety of 1.3g and 1.4g cakes. (cake, a box of prestrung aerial fireworks in individual limited use mortars, can be small 6"x6" or the size of a washing machine. Shell size can be from 0.5" to 4") For really small shows we may also use the 1.75" "festival balls" commonly sold in SC because the footage requirement is so small, but we use more robust mortars than the limited use disposable mortars that come with them when sold to consumers. It's becoming increasingly rare to find a venue with the footage to shoot the bigger mortars - upwards of 6" (8, 10, 12, 16, and 24 are the most typical but anything over 12 is exceedingly rare) - and those require special handing and firing accommodations. Most low level stuff has to be fired electrically for safety and timing, most stuff greater than 6" has to be fired electrically for safety tho there are some exceptions, everything in between we can hand fire. In my 25 years of shooting 99% of my shows have been handfired. (sidebar, an electrically fired show is generally double the cost. Each "e-match" is an additional $1 per queue, plus double the labor to get the shell show ready. If you want it choreographed to music double the cost again.)

Budget: Most pyro companies buy their product direct from China by the container. Since the scamdemic transportation and insurance costs have almost tripled while the cost of the fireworks themselves have nearly doubled. There are some companies in the US that make fireworks, but very few that do it as their primary business. Zambelli comes to mind. American made shells are usually high quality, but also high cost. A generic 3" color shell from China may cost $1 while a US made generic 3" color shell may be $5 and up. Surprisingly the cost of the fireworks isn't the biggest factor in the price of a show. Insurance is. The company I work for carries a $5 million binder that covers transportation and the show.

So if you've got a 8500 budget, have 700 feet of physical location, want the longest show you can get using the biggest shells - you have a decision to make. One 10" shell costs as much as 250 3" shells. You can have a pretty impressive show using a mixture of 3's, 4's, 5's, and 6's that'll last 25 minutes. Or you can have a show using 10's that'll last 5 minutes.

I'm at work now, I have some actual real world examples at home of cost and shell counts I'll post tomorrow.

Well, I found one on my phone, I still have another to post tomorrow.

A recent small town show with an $8k budget and 400ft of available space. Determination was to use smaller shells to maximize duration.

Opening Barrage:
10 - 3" Assorted Finale Color w/tail
10 - 3" Finale Salutes w/tail
6 - 4" Finale Color/Salute w/tail

Sidebar, finale shells come pre strung together in specific quantities. 3" racks have 10 mortars tubes each, the shells come strung together in quantities of 10. 4" racks have 6, 5" racks have 5, 6" racks have 4. Generally greater than 6" is individual tubes or custom made racks; the weight of the shells prevents them from being pre strung.

Main Body:
108 - 3" Assorted Aerial Shells w/tail
36 - 3" Assorted Premium Grade Aerial Shells w/tail (premium in this size would be a smiley, ring, bowtie, heart, canister, etc)
72 - 4" Assorted Aerial Shells w/tail
36 - 4" Assorted Premium Grade Aerial Shells w/tail (premium in this size would be canister shells, double break with salute, etc)

Grand Finale:
130 - 3" Assorted Aerial Shells w/tail
30 - 3" Finale Salutes w/tail
30 - 4" Finale Color/Salute w/tail

This show ran about 15 minutes.

So, 320 3" shells and 144 4" shells for a total of 464 shells. $8,000. Biggest deciding factor was budget.

FWIW, while I am a licensed pyrotechnician, display operator, employee possessor of explosives - whatever the authority that is issuing the certificate/license/permit calls me, I don't do this full time. My daily routine is in IT. I consider this a paying hobby. There just isn't enough demand in NC to keep most people employed in pyro full time. This is my 25 year with this paying hobby, I haven't not shot a fireworks show on the 4th of July since I started.
 
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You have exceeded my wildest expectations of a response. Really, I appreciate your time to explain this in such detail and this answers not just my original question but also a couple others regarding safe distances.

I'm not going to judge, but you do need a ATF issued manufacturer license to make shells. Publicly stating such is akin to stating you're going to drill the third hole. 😁

I can talk to my buddy, the founder of the company I shoot for, and see if he wants to show you around his setup. He has the license, knowledge, and equipment to manufacture shells and does so frequently. Like me, he loves teaching people with an interest in this dying art. If he's cool with it I'll put you two in touch. Also, if you call Hale Artificier in Lexington they'll sell you some HDPE mortars with plugs for a very reasonable price. I can't promise but they'll probably sell you either individual tubes or entire mortar racks. May even give you some if you help build some racks for them. If you want to go to a show I can put in a good word. HDPE is much safer than steel and lasts longer than fiberglass. NEVER use cardboard tubes or PVC.
 
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I was figuring NYC for example would probably use 8-12 inch shells for their major shows but that's just a guess.

That's very likely. Figure in that Zambelli is based in that area and both Zambelli and NYC like to show off. Also consider the potential venue - An island or barges with nearly unlimited space. And I would guess a huge budget. So yeah, I'm positive they shoot some big stuff. If you're shooting over water on a barge you'd want something big to be seen from shore. Tho there's a huge difference between NYC and East Bend NC in potential spectators and budget.

If you look at something like Thunder over Louisville, their sponsor list is a HUGE list of giant companies. I remember hearing 15 years ago their pyro budget was over a million dollars and the show was Y-UGE.

That said, I'll never work a barge show again. It's just too dangerous. Even with the refinement of the RF based firing systems someone still has to get on the barge(s) with with a few tons of explosives and load the mortars that are pre squibbed with sensitive e-matches. Stray RF, static, friction, or nearby lightening can really be the start of a bad day.

Fun fact: The majority of fireworks related deaths are drownings. This is because of barge shows. With all the PPE you need to wear, if something goes sideways while you're on a barge the only safe place is overboard and the PPE will send you straight to the bottom.
 
Well...this answers a material question I was pondering.

Some of you know I built a 2/3 scale replica of a 24 pounder off the USS Constitution as a carbide cannon. I've long pondered making a pair of scale replicas of a Civil War era mortar, specifically intended to use as fireworks mortars, with barrel inserts for different size shells. The HDPE info is very helpful.
 

Yes, I am definitely a pyro, however I have no experience with professional shows. I can fuse cakes/shells and poke them for use with a cobra and igniters in my shows, wire cake slices, etc, but I'm really just a backyard guy. I would like to get into pro shoots as an assistant/get licensed with ATF/state, but that requires time. I think you need to apprentice for at least 3 shows? A first step would be to get PGI certified. Maybe I'll look into that again.

Back in the day before I had enough sense I may have experimented with building shells/flash, but by the time you bought the chemicals, the lift powder, the paper or plastic shell halves, the rice hulls, the tools, spent the time rolling stars, it wasn't really worth it IMO. That's not even taking the risk into consideration. Yes, my homemade willows went higher and broke larger than any 3" shell I'd ever shot before, but it was super time consuming, dangerous, and definitely illegal. For most hobbyists consumer product has gotten very good IMO. Yes, perfectly spherical breaks aren't found in canister shells, but they break super loud and there's always NOABs to scratch the itch for quality breaks. Plus all of the articles of pyrotechnic stuff that's now available if you're certified.

For the hobbyist looking to get a taste of professional fireworks (and building shells) I would highly recommend joining the Carolina Pyros. Absolute great group of pyromaniacs that enjoy blowing stuff up twice per year at fully insured events.
 
I would like to get into pro shoots as an assistant/get licensed with ATF/state, but that requires time. I think you need to apprentice for at least 3 shows? A first step would be to get PGI certified. Maybe I'll look into that again.


You're in the ballpark. Skip PGI certs for now, they won't help yet. ATF won't talk to you yet, you need to be working for a company with an ATF explosives license and that company will help you with getting paperwork submitted for an employee possessor license (basically a federal license that grants you the ability to buy, store, transport (minus the CDL /Hazmat requirement), use, and possess explosives while working under the parent license.)

It's too much to type out. There is a lot. If you want to talk about the path to legal pyrodom PM me, I'll give you my number and we can talk about it. Some of the "requirements" to getting started are just government issue stupid, impossible, and no one follows them. Others are hard and fast rules.

In a nutshell the steps are:

Hook up with a company.
Work a show(s) using the on site verification paperwork
Get an employee possessor thru them.
Learn learn learn - study the NFPA 11-23 I posted above ***see below
Get a NC red card (or start with an assistant yellow card, then move on to a red card)
Start doing solo shows.




*** there is NO part of the 11-23 that will NOT appear on the test. The parts you don't think will apply to you, the parts you think are outdated, the parts that seem counterintuitive, that parts that are just stupid......YOU WILL BE TESTED ON ALL OF IT. The test is unnecessarily complex, in excess of 300 questions, and often worded as if a .GOV employee with a room temperature IQ who didn't understand the material created the test. (guess what?)
 
You're in the ballpark. Skip PGI certs for now, they won't help yet. ATF won't talk to you yet, you need to be working for a company with an ATF explosives license and that company will help you with getting paperwork submitted for an employee possessor license (basically a federal license that grants you the ability to buy, store, transport (minus the CDL /Hazmat requirement), use, and possess explosives while working under the parent license.)

It's too much to type out. There is a lot. If you want to talk about the path to legal pyrodom PM me, I'll give you my number and we can talk about it. Some of the "requirements" to getting started are just government issue stupid, impossible, and no one follows them. Others are hard and fast rules.

In a nutshell the steps are:

Hook up with a company.
Work a show(s) using the on site verification paperwork
Get an employee possessor thru them.
Learn learn learn - study the NFPA 11-23 I posted above ***see below
Get a NC red card (or start with an assistant yellow card, then move on to a red card)
Start doing solo shows.




*** there is NO part of the 11-23 that will NOT appear on the test. The parts you don't think will apply to you, the parts you think are outdated, the parts that seem counterintuitive, that parts that are just stupid......YOU WILL BE TESTED ON ALL OF IT. The test is unnecessarily complex, in excess of 300 questions, and often worded as if a .GOV employee with a room temperature IQ who didn't understand the material created the test. (guess what?)

Thank you for taking the time to shed some light on that.

I always thought the process would be to obtain your ATF type 54 license then work under someone else’s license doing shows for experience, and then apply for your state license. I never considered the employee possessor option.

The thing that always kept me from applying for a type 54 was the magazine requirement. I know that some guys do a converted rigid box, but I’m not sure living in a Raleigh neighborhood and lagging a rigid box into a shed floor would fly with the inspector. Would a magazine be required for an employee possessor as well, or only for the company which they worked?
 
Thank you for taking the time to shed some light on that.

I always thought the process would be to obtain your ATF type 54 license then work under someone else’s license doing shows for experience, and then apply for your state license. I never considered the employee possessor option.

The thing that always kept me from applying for a type 54 was the magazine requirement. I know that some guys do a converted rigid box, but I’m not sure living in a Raleigh neighborhood and lagging a rigid box into a shed floor would fly with the inspector. Would a magazine be required for an employee possessor as well, or only for the company which they worked?

Magazine requirements are only for the company itself. Having the type 54 also opens you up to random ATF inspections of your magazine. Each one of those guys interprets the rules a little different than the last and are as incompetent as you can imagine.

You have to participate in continued education to renew your state license every three years, save the pgi cert for that.
 
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