Red dot disappointment...It's probably operator error but it's still makes me sad...

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P01135809

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OK, I JUST got in this game and am sure my feelings will change but I am just back from my first range trip with 2 new Red dot pistols. I was ready to jump in and immediately win open competitions and national championships (even though I have never placed in the top 5 at a local "Fun match")...

Pistol number 1: VP9 with holosun 507C. Did a little bit of "dry fire" presentation at home to find the dot. That seemed to go well. First shots at the range, I found that the dot was pretty well dialed in out of the gate. I was only loading one round at a time and the slide never locked back. I didn't see this as a big deal because it is common for my support hand to ride the slide-lock and even press on the slide enough to slow it down enough that it doesn't lock. Then I started loading multiple rounds and that is when the trouble started. I was shooting blazer brass 115 grain (which is pretty high end ammo for me 😂) and I started getting FTE and failure to feed malfunctions. I have many many thousands of rounds out of this make of pistol and have had this happen like 3 times. I am assuming that in increased weight on the slide combined with my grip was causing the problem. I feel comfortable this was the problem and when I modified my grip I didn't see as many malfunctions, but now natural pointing was screwed etc...I shot about 100 rounds with iron sights and punched ragged holes at 7 and 10 yards as usual (even though I can't really get the sights in focus with my failing eyes) of course with no malfunctions. Pretty disappointed with this and even though it is probably operator error I am not sure that I want to "re-learn" a grip and actually have to practice. We will see....

Pistol number 2: Hellcat RDP with a holosun 407K. This is a brand new gun and I have never shot a hellcat before. I usually alternate EDC between the VP9 and a sig P365, but got a good deal on this setup so I decided to give it a shot. This was a much better experience but still not ready to win national championships. I had to mess around with this dot to figure out a natural point of aim/point of impact. Still not completely happy but I think it is because I am not 100% on where this gun points for me and I am not sure how close I want the dot to be to front sight.... Great news was there were no malfunctions (other than occasional failure to slide lock-which I do on several pistols). I messed around and did some "bill drills" and put most rounds "in the grapefruit" a la hackathorn recommendation, but i point shot those and never saw the dot. I feel comfortable to carry and use this pistol after a few hundred rounds but still never achieved the 100 rounds through a dime-sized hole accuracy that I was sure I would get with advanced technology 🤣

So mixed results. really disappointed with the VP9 and fairly happy with hellcat. Still not sure that I would see any improvement in my 3 rounds, 3 yards and 3 seconds self defense scenarios. If i had to take a 25 yard head shot it would definitely be an improvement.

Was I expecting too much? Will relearning and practicing be worth it?
 
Personally if you are happy with your level of shooting without the dot. I would not alter my grip and relearn muscle memory to accommodate the dot. I personally stopped buying platforms which cause me to alter my standard grips, trigger finger position etc... I don't own a 45 double stack or a CZ 97 for this reason. In a pinch I can pick up anything and shoot it well enough to defend myself but I am not going to buy guns or systems that don't fit me anymore.

I would not throw the baby out with the bathwater yet. I would check around and see if other HK shooters have a solution for you HK issues. As for the Hellcat it sounds like you just need to work on using the dot. It is my understand that it common.
 
as i responded to someone in a PM...I am just being a big baby (OK I actually said some more basement level words) that didn't get the instant gratification I was hoping for...

I'm "confident" I will be able to get the VP9 sorted out. You always hear about the HK needs 124 NATO blah blah but I have run thousands and thousands of crappy 115 grain without any issues so I was surprised.

I'm fairly happy with my 10 yard shooting, but not that thrilled with my 25 yard shots. Since I don't expect to take 25 yard shots in real life, it might just end up being a game gun thing for me. Time and money will tell...
 
vp9c said:
as i responded to someone in a PM...I am just being a big baby (OK I actually said some more basement level words) that didn't get the instant gratification I was hoping for...

I'm "confident" I will be able to get the VP9 sorted out. You always hear about the HK needs 124 NATO blah blah but I have run thousands and thousands of crappy 115 grain without any issues so I was surprised.

I'm fairly happy with my 10 yard shooting, but not that thrilled with my 25 yard shots. Since I don't expect to take 25 yard shots in real life, it might just end up being a game gun thing for me. Time and money will tell...
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I am about to be right there with you. This in the house already and a local friend has a Holosun 507 Gr he is letting me try out. If I like it he offered it to me at fair price. It can drop onto a LTT Compact or a LTT Centurion. I am sure I will suck equally with both. Won't be able to get to the range with it until next week but I will report back.

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I've not had good luck with red dot pistols either. I'm good enough with irons to defend myself, and learning something new isn't in the cards. I would like a dot equipped VP9 though. Just a toy to have.
 
vp9c said:
as i responded to someone in a PM...I am just being a big baby (OK I actually said some more basement level words) that didn't get the instant gratification I was hoping for...

I'm "confident" I will be able to get the VP9 sorted out. You always hear about the HK needs 124 NATO blah blah but I have run thousands and thousands of crappy 115 grain without any issues so I was surprised.

I'm fairly happy with my 10 yard shooting, but not that thrilled with my 25 yard shots. Since I don't expect to take 25 yard shots in real life, it might just end up being a game gun thing for me. Time and money will tell...
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Just an honest question: why do you not expect 25yd shots in "real life"?

Real life presents you with a shot you have to make. You don't get to choose what distance it is. No? And in games, you will certainly positively have 25 yd shots.

Not trying to start an argument, just genuinely curious why people think there's a magic number. I see this with rifles: "this rifle is for 100 yards and in" etc.
 
NKD said:
Just an honest question: why do you not expect 25yd shots in "real life"?

Real life presents you with a shot you have to make. You don't get to choose what distance it is. No? And in games, you will certainly positively have 25 yd shots.

Not trying to start an argument, just genuinely curious why people think there's a magic number. I see this with rifles: "this rifle is for 100 yards and in" etc.
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I am just basing it on statistics I’ve heard from people like ken Heckathorne and Larry Vickers stating that like 90% of the situations are inside and 10 yards.

so if I couple that with the statistics that I am extremely unlikely to ever be in that situation anyway, I figure it’s unlikely. i’m not saying it’s impossible but I’ve seen and have been told about does not suggest longshots in most offensive situations

sure everybody can find one or two stories where someone has taken a justified 25 to 100 yard shot in a defensive situation as a civilian but I don’t think they’re that common
 
vp9c said:
I am just basing it on statistics I’ve heard from people like ken Heckathorne and Larry Vickers stating that like 90% of the situations are inside and 10 yards.

so if I couple that with the statistics that I am extremely unlikely to ever be in that situation anyway, I figure it’s unlikely. i’m not saying it’s impossible but I’ve seen and have been told about does not suggest longshots in most offensive situations

sure everybody can find one or two stories where someone has taken a justified 25 to 100 yard shot in a defensive situation as a civilian but I don’t think they’re that common
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Okey dokey.
 
VP9 new or not? Break in issue? Weight of most RDS on fullsize guns is not significant to begin with and usually offset some by material removed for mounting if a space is milled out. You may want to check and make sure none of the fasteners are protruding into somewhere they shouldn't and interfering.

On the hellcat the dots location in the window is irrelevant, as is any concern over where it is in relation to the front sight.

They're not for everyone, but they're very easy and effective if you don't think too hard about it.
 
Beef15 said:
You may want to check and make sure none of the fasteners are protruding into somewhere they shouldn't and interfering.
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will do!
Beef15 said:
On the hellcat the dots location in the window is irrelevant, as is any concern over where it is in relation to the front sight.
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agreed. it just seemed to make it easier to consistently “find the dot” to have the poa/poi just above the sights. probably from my normal site picture acquisition process of looking for sites. plus it seem to create the most consistent picture for me. totally makes sense that that’s going to be different for everyone or you can have the dot positioned anywhere in the window as long as the poa/poi are dialed in

Beef15 said:
VP9 new or not? Break in issue?
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good question. I have so many vp9‘s that I have no idea How many rounds this one has through it, if any. i’ll swap barrel and recoil spring as an experiment from some well worn in pistol(s)
 
vp9c said:
I am just basing it on statistics I’ve heard from people like ken Heckathorne and Larry Vickers stating that like 90% of the situations are inside and 10 yards.

so if I couple that with the statistics that I am extremely unlikely to ever be in that situation anyway, I figure it’s unlikely. i’m not saying it’s impossible but I’ve seen and have been told about does not suggest longshots in most offensive situations

sure everybody can find one or two stories where someone has taken a justified 25 to 100 yard shot in a defensive situation as a civilian but I don’t think they’re that common
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voice to text kind of sucks. 😂 i don’t even understand what i posted…
 
vp9c said:
voice to text kind of sucks. 😂 i don’t even understand what i posted…
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I understand. The reality is we as non LEO based on statistics and probability will never fire a handgun in self defense but if we do it will be under 7 yards. So I personally train accordingly. I train 5-10% for shots beyond 10 yards because that is the probability of me ever having to take one. Draw shot in close engagement is what I am training for because it is the most likely encounter I am going to face.
 
Leo/ non Leo is irrelevant. Completely irrelevant.
If we are basing what we train for on “probability” then why train at all?
There’s a 99% (likely 99.9%) chance you won’t even have to make a 7 yard shot. Or even draw your gun.

So why bother? Some funny reasoning there. I think it has more to do with people wanting to stay within their comfort zone. You should train what you are bad at. Why limit yourself or your capabilities? Cuz Larry said so? Larry/Hackathorn can both make 25 yard head shots without sweat. Easily. Because they train for it. Any decent handgun shooter can. 25 yards is where I zero my pistols. It’s a dead hold.

But the main thing was that it was mentioned it would be a “match gun” in which case: there is a 100% REALITY that you will have many many shots over 7 yards. Including head shots and partials beyond 15 yards.

Not trying to disparage or insult or brag, just trying to give you some food for thought.

 
I’ve been shooting a BUG gun in regular matches almost exclusively (when I shoot matches anymore), because that's what I carry, so I’ll run those drills at 10 yards, then move it back to 15, then 20.

If you can make a reasonable group at 15-20 yards, you’ll be a “dead shot” at 7.
 
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understand your point and it’s totally valid.

i definitely don’t train. heck the only time i even shoot is at matches. for me shooting is a hobby not a way of life. you’re right that im pretty comfortable not being that great of a shooter 😂 i used to think it was cool when i beat somebody in a match with my irons and they ran an optic…now i see why i did because it is too hard for some hairless monkeys like me to use!

and as my eyesight gets more screwed up i suspect i will get worse. i do love tinkering and trying new stuff and arguing on the internet though! 😂

i guess those championships continue to be safe from me.
 
NKD said:
Leo/ non Leo is irrelevant. Completely irrelevant.
If we are basing what we train for on “probability” then why train at all?
There’s a 99% (likely 99.9%) chance you won’t even have to make a 7 yard shot. Or even draw your gun.

So why bother? Some funny reasoning there. I think it has more to do with people wanting to stay within their comfort zone. You should train what you are bad at. Why limit yourself or your capabilities? Cuz Larry said so? Larry/Hackathorn can both make 25 yard head shots without sweat. Easily. Because they train for it. Any decent handgun shooter can. 25 yards is where I zero my pistols. It’s a dead hold.

But the main thing was that it was mentioned it would be a “match gun” in which case: there is a 100% REALITY that you will have many many shots over 7 yards. Including head shots and partials beyond 15 yards.

Not trying to disparage or insult or brag, just trying to give you some food for thought.

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we ran that church scenario in one match and i think i scored headshots (probably not in the official A zone but in the brain/face somewhere). fun stage!
 
NKD said:
Leo/ non Leo is irrelevant. Completely irrelevant.
If we are basing what we train for on “probability” then why train at all?
There’s a 99% (likely 99.9%) chance you won’t even have to make a 7 yard shot. Or even draw your gun.

So why bother? Some funny reasoning there. I think it has more to do with people wanting to stay within their comfort zone. You should train what you are bad at. Why limit yourself or your capabilities? Cuz Larry said so? Larry/Hackathorn can both make 25 yard head shots without sweat. Easily. Because they train for it. Any decent handgun shooter can. 25 yards is where I zero my pistols. It’s a dead hold.

But the main thing was that it was mentioned it would be a “match gun” in which case: there is a 100% REALITY that you will have many many shots over 7 yards. Including head shots and partials beyond 15 yards.

Not trying to disparage or insult or brag, just trying to give you some food for thought.

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I’m the weirdo at the range shooting 10” plates at 100 yards with my P365.

Don’t do it every session but often enough. 35 yards with the 365 is something I do every time I shoot it. That’s at 6” plates.

I know jack squat about tactics and am the first to admit it. It is just hilarious to me how accurate that pistol is. Though my G26 is also really accurate for some reason.

The latest 5 shot revo...haven’t figured out what grain it likes yet. Need to do some more testing. But it should be able to hit 6” plates at 35 yards too. The 642 I had sure would.

Though admittedly I’m probably a mediocre shooter, I do enjoy shooting pistols at distance. Cause it’s fun.

For what it’s worth though I’m in agreement with NKD here. Can’t hurt to know what your pistol will do at various distances. Might need it someday.
 
I shoot a PPC match for practice. This goes from 5 yards back to 28. It's interesting to see how much groups open up at distance. Heck, some people can't keep shots on paper at 28 yards, even when paper is a B27, "the side of a barn".
 
Timfoilhat said:
I shoot a PPC match for practice. This goes from 5 yards back to 28. It's interesting to see how much groups open up at distance. Heck, some people can't keep shots on paper at 28 yards, even when paper is a B27, "the side of a barn".
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We shot a match down at Jacksonville that had a 49 yard stage. The match director said that people kept asking why on earth he had a 49 yard stage.

His reply, “Because only an s$$hole would have a fifty yard stage.”

:p
 
vp9c said:
we ran that church scenario in one match and i think i scored headshots (probably not in the official A zone but in the brain/face somewhere). fun stage!
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This Church Shooting is a permanent fixture here. Using the buzzer as a time of alarm for the 5 seconds from sight to shot 99% pass.
 
Timfoilhat said:
I shoot a PPC match for practice. This goes from 5 yards back to 28. It's interesting to see how much groups open up at distance. Heck, some people can't keep shots on paper at 28 yards, even when paper is a B27, "the side of a barn".
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I Still love shooting PPC. I just sold my PPC guns and now I will continue with my carry guns. Oh and PPC in it's original form went back to 50 yards...............................you know back when All beer was Colder and nobody poked fat gals.
 
BatteryOaksBilly said:
I Still love shooting PPC. I just sold my PPC guns and now I will continue with my carry guns. Oh and PPC in it's original form went back to 50 yards...............................you know back when All beer was Colder and nobody poked fat gals.
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Our match is limited to the depth of our range.
 
OK. Big shout out to the form! I switched out the recoil spring from A gun that I know Has a bunch of rounds through it.

shot flawlessly!

Chris tilley better watch his ass because I’m coming for him 😂

that’s an absolute joke I’m still not going to train but it’s a hell of a lot easier for me at 25 yards since I can’t see the damn sights with my failing eyes

I guess I’m gonna have to email Larry Vickers to let him know that he won’t have to follow me around all the time in case I need A 25 yard shot 😂
 
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vp9c said:
OK. Big shout out to the form! I switched out the recoil spring from A gun that I know Has a bunch of rounds through it.

shot flawlessly!

Chris tilley better watch his ass because I’m coming for him 😂

that’s an absolute joke I’m still not going to train but it’s a hell of a lot easier for me at 25 yards since I can’t see the damn sights with my failing eyes

I guess I’m gonna have to email Larry Vickers to let him know that he won’t have to follow me around all the time in case I need A 25 yard shot 😂
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He is going to save a ton of money on gas. I am sure he will be relieved you have taken this burden off his plate.
 
BatteryOaksBilly said:
I Still love shooting PPC. I just sold my PPC guns and now I will continue with my carry guns. Oh and PPC in it's original form went back to 50 yards...............................you know back when All beer was Colder and nobody poked fat gals.
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I enjoy shooting PCC and poking fat gals. Then again I'm fat, ugly and slow.

Gotta play the hand you're dealt. ;)
 
I felt the same way and had a similar experience first time shooting a handgun with a RDS. Felt very slow but eventually with practice it will become more natural. I learned to find my target before looking for the dot.
 
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