Red Dots are only good for close engagement. LOL ;)

First, well, he is who he is, lol....

Second, we'd routinely hit targets at 500 yards with irons and RDS....

Of course but I think there is still a misconception that RDS are only for fast close engagement.
 
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That video is 1000% directed to the market who watched that video. LOL

YouTubers, not shooters.

I agree to an extent. The problem is that 90% of buyer are not shooters. People do not understand the gear that they want to buy or even worse have already bought. Look at the questions that are asked here and IMHO this forum’s knowledge level is high.

Also LAV is in the business of selling & marketing guns and gun related stuff. Not that that is a bad thing.
 
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I agree to an extent. The problem is that 90% of buyer are not shooters. People do not understand the gear that they want to buy or even worse have already bought.

That's right, I would say 99.5% of gun owners know that ownership = ability

Then they find a nugget that is 80% myth, 20% truth and come on forums like this one and spread the gospel to the rest of us.

I mean hell, an RDS adjusts in 1/2 MOA so why not dial on 500yds of DOPE and pew - pew your way into Youtube stardom.

I just watched the video, Larry might have dialed on DOPE or like a smart guy picked proper sized targets. I did 550yds today with a T2 on a Saint so its easy to do and not hard at all.
 
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That's right, I would say 99.5% of gun owners know that ownership = ability

Then they find a nugget that is 80% myth, 20% truth and come on forums like this one and spread the gospelto the rest of us.

I mean hell, a RDS adjusts in 1/2 MOA so why not dial on 500yds of DOPE and pew - pew your way into Youtube stardom.

So enlighten us separate the 80% myth from the 20% truth. I am interested. Maybe I am in the .5 %. You sell training based on your knowledge and abilities so I am waiting for some insight vs puffery.
 
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That's right, I would say 99.5% of gun owners know that ownership = ability

Then they find a nugget that is 80% myth, 20% truth and come on forums like this one and spread the gospel to the rest of us.

I mean hell, an RDS adjusts in 1/2 MOA so why not dial on 500yds of DOPE and pew - pew your way into Youtube stardom.

I just watched the video, Larry might have dialed on DOPE or like a smart guy picked proper sized targets. I did 550yds today with a T2 on a Saint so its easy to do and not hard at all.

Man did someone piss in your corn flakes this morning? You commented and denounced the video before you even watched. You seem to be worked up on this one. I guess you are just missing the point. I am not saying that the shots in the video are mind blowing. I was attempting to illustrate that RDS are useful at longer ranges. You don’t have to LAV to make that hit. It’s about RDS being useful beyond spitting distances.

Maybe you can hold a class that will teach all of us to shoot RDS at 500 yards since from your post it’s no sweat.
 
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When I easily hit steel at 250yd with Wolf ammo out of a 10.5” SBR, I demonstrated to myself that 300-400yd+ was definitely doable, but I don’t have access to that distance so it doesn’t really matter.

Yeah that is the real kicker. A friend of mine had a SCAR 17 but he sold it because we did not have a range that could really test what that rifle could do and was built for. Shooting nice groups at 150 and 200 after a while got boring.
 
Not taking away from Vickers but the spotting sure made him look good.

A 4moa dot only reticle with just called holds at 600 yards though does take some talent. Really a red dot at 300 yards use to be pretty doable once I could get the windage (the hold over is pretty straight forward) but 600 yards of me reading and walking it in ... not sure I’d be able to see and read the misses with no spotter.
 
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I agree. I see students running 1-6x optics on 10.5 inch rifles because they feel they need that kind of optic to engage at 300 yards. We routinely run our Eotechs and Aimpoints at 500 yards on 2/3 size men. It is very doable, the issue is lack of practice/ foundational knowledge/confidence/ or lack of ability due to not understanding certain concepts. Red dots are just fine at distance. Where the extra magnification helps is target ID/weapon ID, etc.
 
I agree. I see students running 1-6x optics on 10.5 inch rifles because they feel they need that kind of optic to engage at 300 yards. We routinely run our Eotechs and Aimpoints at 500 yards on 2/3 size men. It is very doable, the issue is lack of practice/ foundational knowledge/confidence/ or lack of ability due to not understanding certain concepts. Red dots are just fine at distance. Where the extra magnification helps is target ID/weapon ID, etc.

Ding - ding - ding ... I am pretty much not likely to be in a situation (combat situation) where I’d be targeting things at those distances and if I did I better damn well make sure of what I’m targeting!
 
I think it all has to do with people knowing their equipment. Sure, red dots can shoot out past 4-500 yards. I’ve done it. But there are better options if you are routinely going to be shooting that far out. I’ve seen people shoot pistols out past 100 yards, but that doesn’t specifically mean that’s what they are good for.


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I think it all has to do with people knowing their equipment. Sure, red dots can shoot out past 4-500 yards. I’ve done it. But there are better options if you are routinely going to be shooting that far out. I’ve seen people shoot pistols out past 100 yards, but that doesn’t specifically mean that’s what they are good for.


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True. I shoot my Sig pistol in class at 3 inch circles at 150 yards to demonstrate accuracy to students. Would I prefer to hit it with a handgun, no, but can I? Yes. Knowing your equipment in an in-depth way is something most people don't do, but should. I know my holdovers with a handgun out to 250 yards. I know my AR holdovers for 600. I know all of the distances on my property for key target reference points, and my holdovers in MOA and MIL for my precision rifles. The list goes on and on. It takes time, studying, and discipline which most people will not commit to. But you never know what weapon you are going to have on you or nearby should you need it.
 
True. I shoot my Sig pistol in class at 3 inch circles at 150 yards to demonstrate accuracy to students. Would I prefer to hit it with a handgun, no, but can I? Yes. Knowing your equipment in an in-depth way is something most people don't do, but should. I know my holdovers with a handgun out to 250 yards. I know my AR holdovers for 600. I know all of the distances on my property for key target reference points, and my holdovers in MOA and MIL for my precision rifles. The list goes on and on. It takes time, studying, and discipline which most people will not commit to. But you never know what weapon you are going to have on you or nearby should you need it.

It’s all a matter of mitigating risk the best we can. In my life I am either at home or the 80% of the time. At home fighting distance is going to be 1-10 yards. At work I can’t carry, so it’s moot.

If I spent much of my life in situations where I could have a rifle around me and the distances could realistically be out to a few hundred yards then my choices would be different.


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Go LAV !

I will concede that am not to good with a red dot past 200 yards. I dumped the red dot for a LPVO for me and my ability.
 
My eyes suck & I can't shoot irons worth a crap past 50yds anymore, but I couldn't quit grinning earlier today, ringing an 8" gong at 100yds with my 10.5" .300BLK AR wearing a Vortex StrikeFire II. I imagine that gun as a close-in, HD/SD type gun, but it's nice to know I can reach out to 100 & take a deer with it, should the opportunity present itself.

For anything past 50yds, I really need magnification for any kind of precision & by 300yds, I'm really wanting at least a 3-9x, vs. the 2-7x I typically run.
 
Granted it’s got a SMALL amount of magnification but my 1.5x TA44 ACOG is easy as hell to shoot at 500yds. 600yds not hard if you know the holdover but same with a red dot. Haven’t shot my CompM2 beyond 300yds (haven’t really cared to) but again it comes down to finding the holdover with your ammo and having the vision for it

Heres the holdover at 300yds (the tip of the chevron is 50/200 and the bottom points are 300.) The chevron is totally obscuring the 8” plate but basically that means you’re going to be all over it. 400yds beyond that to the left, 500yds on the right and 600yds is at the very back. This is also very zoomed in for detail and NOT what it looks like to the naked eye

FPGu7tW.jpg


This is closer to a naked eye photo but still a tad bit of zoom due to the camera. The TA44 is like a crystal clear red dot

ub47eQY.jpg
 
So enlighten us separate the 80% myth from the 20% truth. I am interested. Maybe I am in the .5 %. You sell training based on your knowledge and abilities so I am waiting for some insight vs puffery.

To this post and others, you posted this to debunk the 80% myth aspect. Most conversations are just that, I do not need to prove it you already have.

As to my training, I did sale training. I am almost out of the industry right now due to lack of time to invest. I do not want to half-ass it.

What a lot of people do is take these videos on face value. I do not know if this one video has any level of the question to it. BUT I have seen other national trainers have separate rifles with RDS optics zeroed at X distance, and during the video swap out from rifle 1, to rifle 2, to rifle 3 and when you see the video it looks like it the same gun during the whole viewing. Not uncommon, or just run a zero at X distance and be done with it.

I just think its funny when I point out the whole premise of this video and you posting it, you get pissy at me.

lol
 
True. I shoot my Sig pistol in class at 3 inch circles at 150 yards to demonstrate accuracy to students. Would I prefer to hit it with a handgun, no, but can I? Yes. Knowing your equipment in an in-depth way is something most people don't do, but should. I know my holdovers with a handgun out to 250 yards. I know my AR holdovers for 600. I know all of the distances on my property for key target reference points, and my holdovers in MOA and MIL for my precision rifles. The list goes on and on. It takes time, studying, and discipline which most people will not commit to. But you never know what weapon you are going to have on you or nearby should you need it.

How do you hold over with irons on a pistol to hit a 3” target at 150 or 250, the target would be well behind the slide? Not doubting you, don’t know you, just curious about the technique.
 
To this post and others, you posted this to debunk the 80% myth aspect. Most conversations are just that, I do not need to prove it you already have.

As to my training, I did sale training. I am almost out of the industry right now due to lack of time to invest. I do not want to half-ass it.

What a lot of people do is take these videos on face value. I do not know if this one video has any level of the question to it. BUT I have seen other national trainers have separate rifles with RDS optics zeroed at X distance, and during the video swap out from rifle 1, to rifle 2, to rifle 3 and when you see the video it looks like it the same gun during the whole viewing. Not uncommon, or just run a zero at X distance and be done with it.

I just think its funny when I point out the whole premise of this video and you posting it, you get pissy at me.

lol

A few things John, and again, you seem very salty towards this forum:

You say a lot of people take these videos on face value...but did you actually see anyone here claiming that LAV was some sort of firearm superhero for being able to do this? Pretty much everyone, to a person said "Meh, I do this at times, its cool, but not revolutionary." It has come to appear that you have a preconceived notion that everyone here is a mouth breathing Gecko45 or something. Literally the first comment on this was about routinely hitting at 500 yrds with irons and red dots.

Even after your "1000% targeted" comment wvsig was just pointing out that most people don't understand what their gear can do, so seeing someone display its capabilities is good for them. He wasn't getting pissy or anything of the like. "Shooters" make up an extremely small percentage of the gun owning population. LAV wouldn't make money making videos that catered to a .5% of shooters (your number).

If anyone gets pissy, it is those of us that know you, have met you, have trained under you and know what you have to offer in terms of expertise, then see you come here and act like this, an elitist that doesn't have time to actually educate, but plenty of time to make short snide remarks and belittle the intelligence of the community. Again, you can do better than this bud.
 
How do you hold over with irons on a pistol to hit a 3” target at 150 or 250, the target would be well behind the slide? Not doubting you, don’t know you, just curious about the technique.

Lower your rear sight, while keeping the front sight on target:

Normal sight picture..

E7563A1D-C432-42E0-B7AE-177FE2D2C264.jpeg

Holdover for distance...

59228646-7E25-4189-8074-9A0D194ECF63.jpeg

You’re still maintaining your front sight picture...it doesn’t change; all you’re doing is lowering the rear sight.

At one time, I had a 29 Smith with lines I had put on the front sight ramp with a fine point gold paint marker. The lines corresponded with different distances...

4CC23693-54B8-4564-9FAE-91F7BBA6E082.jpeg
BF21BC6F-23E9-4FB8-A817-63FA57AF9AF1.jpeg
80A17772-3FC9-4ED8-A84E-9EFF2157DB27.jpeg
This is a great book, imo...lotta good stuff in there:

B082AC9F-5942-4AE9-A6EF-05F96A660644.jpeg
 
How do you hold over with irons on a pistol to hit a 3” target at 150 or 250, the target would be well behind the slide? Not doubting you, don’t know you, just curious about the technique.
Aim high haha. At 150 yards running @Butter 's ammo I am holding about 8 inches high at 150. Nothing too dramatic. I think people think you will be aiming in the trees at that distance. There are MANY forum members that we train that have seen me make that shot in class, and can tag them. In tactical handgun 102, we regularly have students hit the 150yd 2/3 man steel target.
 
………. IIRC part of rifle qualification for the Marines included hitting silhouettes at 500 or 600 meters?? That was with iron sights, no optics.
 
A few things John, and again, you seem very salty towards this forum:

You say a lot of people take these videos on face value...but did you actually see anyone here claiming that LAV was some sort of firearm superhero for being able to do this? Pretty much everyone, to a person said "Meh, I do this at times, its cool, but not revolutionary." It has come to appear that you have a preconceived notion that everyone here is a mouth breathing Gecko45 or something. Literally the first comment on this was about routinely hitting at 500 yrds with irons and red dots.

Even after your "1000% targeted" comment wvsig was just pointing out that most people don't understand what their gear can do, so seeing someone display its capabilities is good for them. He wasn't getting pissy or anything of the like. "Shooters" make up an extremely small percentage of the gun owning population. LAV wouldn't make money making videos that catered to a .5% of shooters (your number).

If anyone gets pissy, it is those of us that know you, have met you, have trained under you and know what you have to offer in terms of expertise, then see you come here and act like this, an elitist that doesn't have time to actually educate, but plenty of time to make short snide remarks and belittle the intelligence of the community. Again, you can do better than this bud.

I have no issue with this site or the people. I have less time and willingness to diverge in conversations that are well posted and talked about already in-depth and figured out. This issue I have is the death knell for forums in general that are unique it a single topic. I get that the people come and go in waves of interest but for someone like you and me, we can copy-paste responses and just change the greeting and never miss a beat.
Due to this fact, I like a crackhead have a habit to beat, it's logging in to this site and others like this one. I gain no value from it other than finding out about a few matches that are new. The beating of the habit is the death spin for such places.
 
I have no issue with this site or the people. I have less time and willingness to diverge in conversations that are well posted and talked about already in-depth and figured out. This issue I have is the death knell for forums in general that are unique it a single topic. I get that the people come and go in waves of interest but for someone like you and me, we can copy-paste responses and just change the greeting and never miss a beat.
Due to this fact, I like a crackhead have a habit to beat, it's logging in to this site and others like this one. I gain no value from it other than finding out about a few matches that are new. The beating of the habit is the death spin for such places.

Wow. Really?

I've heard tell you're a good dude in person, but you come off like a smug ass online. That's no sweat off my ballsack, I'll just keep on scrollin', but it seems to me you think you're quite above us & if we're all so useless to you & add no value, then why TF do you deign to grace us with your presence? Or hell, if you've nothing to say, how about STFU & keep on scrolling?
 
Wow. Really?

I've heard tell you're a good dude in person, but you come off like a smug ass online. That's no sweat off my ballsack, I'll just keep on scrollin', but it seems to me you think you're quite above us & if we're all so useless to you & add no value, then why TF do you deign to grace us with your presence? Or hell, if you've nothing to say, how about STFU & keep on scrolling?

I am not smug, i call it like i see it. 75% of the time i am right, in this industry. The other 25% i learn from and move on.

As far as STFU and scroll, thats my point, thanks for reinforcing it.
 
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Leopards don’t change their spots after all
 
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