Retention Shooting Drill

Ken Hackathorn is a legend and I dearly hope I might be able to take a class with him before he completely retires from training. So there's no disrespect at all intended in this. But I don't like that approach at all. If you're close enough so that you're using your support hand to fend or fight, then you're close enough that putting the gun out in front of you is probably a bad idea. If you're far enough away that you can get the gun out in front of you, why shoot one handed? (i.e. shoot from compressed ready instead.)It seems like an approach that's neither fish nor fowl. For retention, it seems to me (in my own admittedly largely ignorant position) that Craig Douglas has established the state of the art.


 
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I agree - I was taught to practice retention shooting with my wrist/forearm indexed at my hip. But that training was in context of fighting with a gun and hanging on to it, not competing with one. It may very well be easier to score hits on paper with the elbow index and forearm forward. I dunno.
 
I agree - I was taught to practice retention shooting with my wrist/forearm indexed at my hip. But that training was in context of fighting with a gun and hanging on to it, not competing with one. It may very well be easier to score hits on paper with the elbow index and forearm forward. I dunno.
When you tried that here at the ATM shooting a hostile at 5 feet..how did that work?
 
I believe I did manage to miss that guy.
 
AND That was Not to throw off on you. I Know you are a good man with a gun. I personally would appreciate your company in a bad situation... My point is, after having been shooting here Daily for 15 years with Hundreds of thousands of rounds fired by over 1,000 people...this is what happens when the flag flies. We can and do miss at arms length. That doesn't mean we shouldn't practice....using Many disciplines to find what might work when we need it.
One of my favorite Clintisms is ….You will NOT react as you train...it won't be Near that good!
 
Ken Hackathorn is a legend and I dearly hope I might be able to take a class with him before he completely retires from training. So there's no disrespect at all intended in this. But I don't like that approach at all. If you're close enough so that you're using your support hand to fend or fight, then you're close enough that putting the gun out in front of you is probably a bad idea. If you're far enough away that you can get the gun out in front of you, why shoot one handed? (i.e. shoot from compressed ready instead.)It seems like an approach that's neither fish nor fowl. For retention, it seems to me (in my own admittedly largely ignorant position) that Craig Douglas has established the state of the art.

I think you are making a very good observation.
 
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If the gun's out in front of your body, you're not in a retention position.

One-handed and out in front is the opposite of retention... it's a less secure position than a compressed ready or a TPI.
 
I think the standard objection to the speed rock is that while it may be fast it is madness to put yourself in such a profoundly compromised position when a guy who is (presumably) an imminent lethal threat is within arms reach of you. I'm no expert on the history here, but from what I have gathered in my research, the speed rock was an IPSC development that seemed like a great idea to people shooting paper targets against a timer, but that immediately collapsed when people started pressure testing it against resisting opponents.
 
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I have never been in an entangled gunfight (thank God), but I have been in several entangled taser deployments (cross draw holster, similar to a SHO AIWB draw in entanglement), and:

(1) success (i.e. control) requires you to keep your distance tool away from grabby hands without pointing it at yourself;

(2) an arm held tight and close to the torso is much harder to move or deflect than an arm dropped near a holster;

(3) any part of your body not being used to deploy your distance tool (e.g. head, shoulder, elbow, forearm) needs to be creating distance, inducing pain, and causing distraction; and

(4) tilting your body and being flat-footed are great ways to get dumped and stomped after magical pistol bullets (or taser probes and drive stuns) fail to incapacitate the jacked-up neanderthal that's decided it's wrestle-o'clock.

Simunition/airsoft FoF or bluegun grappling would be infinitely more relevant and helpful than whatever was happening in that video. A "retention shooting" position that's not built around weapon retention, mobility, and combined hands-on control is not a retention shooting position at all.
 
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I think the standard objection to the speed rock is that while it may be fast it is madness to put yourself in such a profoundly compromised position when a guy who is (presumably) an imminent lethal threat is within arms reach of you.

Murphy.

There may be a time where you are alert and doing absolutely everything right, but sh*t just happens....no rhyme, no reason...goes from 0 to F ‘ed up in seconds; witnessed it first-hand...happening to others and happening to me...

Murphy...the MFer gets around.

I’ll never advocate walking around with a defeatist attitude, but there are times when I wonder if it’d just be best to go ahead and expect nothing to go as expected; that way, you’re not caught off-guard or surprised when your plan goes straight to sh*t.
 
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I was doin' some old fashion Speed Rocks Sunday with Charlie and @Millie on the range. With target 2 yards away I was putting a round on From Concealment in .44 sec. I guess at my advanced age, I'll just stick to that.

Hands relaxed at sides or hand on gun?
 
As always when carrying a Tiny gun in your pocket, we start with hand in pocket. Nothing more natural. Nobody thinks anything of folks standing with their hands in their pocket.
Also, and I am open to any reasonable suggestions. How is being able to put rounds on a target from relaxed concealment in .44 seconds Not a good thing. Call it any retention "name" you need to call it, it's effective. IF shooting a target at 2 yards in .44 seconds from concealment is Not a good self defense tool...I have wasted a lotta years. As always I am open to Anybody Showing me a better, quicker, more accurate way to protect myself. ...Showing me....not Telling me.



@NKD, I appreciate your interest Ole Pard. I carry this way Every Day of my life, so I practice this way. Great speed advantage, terrible little gun disadvantage.
 
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Also, and I am open to any reasonable suggestions. How is being able to put rounds on a target from relaxed concealment in .44 seconds Not a good thing. Call it any retention "name" you need to call it, it's effective. IF shooting a target at 2 yards in .44 seconds from concealment is Not a good self defense tool...I have wasted a lotta years.

A Speed Rock is:

(A) Close quarters point-shooting

Or

(B) Close quarters reflexive shooting

Both names mean the same thing, and it is an effective means of shooting (quick and reasonably accurate).

Practicing point-shooting/reflexive shooting is not a waste of time. Time limitations, surreptitious draws, compromised body positions... there are plenty of scenarios in which point/reflexive shooting is a viable solution.

It is not a retention technique of any kind. Using a gun at close quarters, even a blazing fast and accurate .44 seconds, is not the same as playing "loaded-gun-keep-away" with aggressive body mechanics. The Speed Rock is great for first shot speed, but it's a poor technique for a combined hands-on fight. TPI keeps the gun high and tight to your body and necessarily keeps the arm, shoulder, and chest locked up tight. You might give up a tenth, but you're in a stronger position to maintain the gun while fighting.

Edited to add: So, you haven't wasted any years! It's just a different technique that folks like Ken have mislabeled. If you have someone who is willing to wrestle over a bluegun with you, or if you have a gym that will let you practice a concealed draw while fighting a heavybag or laying under a jumbo sandbag at the buzzer, you'll probably hold the gun higher and tighter to your torso instinctively to maintain control.
 
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As always when carrying a Tiny gun in your pocket, we start with hand in pocket. Nothing more natural. Nobody thinks anything of folks standing with their hands in their pocket.
Also, and I am open to any reasonable suggestions. How is being able to put rounds on a target from relaxed concealment in .44 seconds Not a good thing. Call it any retention "name" you need to call it, it's effective. IF shooting a target at 2 yards in .44 seconds from concealment is Not a good self defense tool...I have wasted a lotta years. As always I am open to Anybody Showing me a better, quicker, more accurate way to protect myself. ...Showing me....not Telling me.

@NKD, I appreciate your interest Ole Pard. I carry this way Every Day of my life, so I practice this way. Great speed advantage, terrible little gun disadvantage.


EDIT: I think I misconstrued you Billy, and thought you were replying to me, my bad if so. Unedited reply below.

Not sure why you got all that from my post? Was just a simple question. I have no suggestions or criticism at all. Not trying to start a pissing contest. I carry a small gun too.

Just curious, as to the time difference, as I don't personally consider a draw from concealment having any hand touching the gun, and would be interested to know how much time it takes if gun hand is out of a pocket.

I've seen your shooting on video and I think we can all agree you are not the guy to start a gunfight with, and I respect and enjoy your posts, etc.
 
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If you have someone who is willing to wrestle over a bluegun with you, or if you have a gym that will let you practice a concealed draw while fighting a heavybag or laying under a jumbo sandbag at the buzzer, you'll probably hold the gun higher and tighter to your torso instinctively to maintain control.
We are able to do all of that here. If I live until Saturday I will be 73. I am a young thug's worst nightmare. A mark too old to Run Or Fight. Been doin this quite a while.....come down and join us Anytime. I'm usually here after 1 PM every day and most week ends. We tell folks "if you wanna rapell down a wall with your hair on fire shooting full auto, we can't help you. If you wanna drive your car, go to the ATM, go out to eat, go to the Big Box after sundown, All with a plan to return home...we are the place to come." As always our Only incentive is to help you feel better when you leave. Of course we like to remind everybody, New and Old members, Everything here Is FREE. The range, the time, The Bunk House and usually some cake or pie. We have no interest in making one penny off any who seek our help....ever. At least as long as I'm runnin the show???????
 
We are able to do all of that here. If I live until Saturday I will be 73. I am a young thug's worst nightmare. A mark too old to Run Or Fight. Been doin this quite a while.....come down and join us Anytime. I'm usually here after 1 PM every day and most week ends. We tell folks "if you wanna rapell down a wall with your hair on fire shooting full auto, we can't help you. If you wanna drive your car, go to the ATM, go out to eat, go to the Big Box after sundown, All with a plan to return home...we are the place to come." As always our Only incentive is to help you feel better when you leave. Of course we like to remind everybody, New and Old members, Everything here Is FREE. The range, the time, The Bunk House and usually some cake or pie. We have no interest in making one penny off any who seek our help....ever. At least as long as I'm runnin the show???????

That's all fantastic and an immense service to everyone in the shooting community. I'd love to make the trip down to Horry County, and would gladly do so if my caseload and weekend work schedule allowed.

I want to clarify that nothing I have said is a criticism of you or your training or meant to be confrontational. My comments in this thread have been about the original video (which does not demonstrate retention shooting, despite its title, and conflates point-shooting with retention techniques) and my criticisms thereof based on entangled fights and training experience.
 
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