Rifle Brass Sizing Issue

dickieray

dickieray

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Question for you rifle caliber reloaders. I shoot and reload .243 winchester, 6.5 Creedmoor, and .308 Winchester. After depriming, cleaning (wet tumble/pins), trimming and champhering, I lube and FL size them. Did some 6.5 CM yesterday and after FL sizing almost all would not fit flush in my Hornady case gauge without applying some pressure. Maybe 1/8" from fitting flush. I double sized a few just to be sire and there was no difference in the fit. The exception was Barnes once fired brass. All of these dropped in flush with no problem. The sizing die is Redding and installed as per factory directions. Usually there are similar issues with 243 w and 308 w as well. Loading for bolt action rifles only. 1 each: Rem. 700, Savage model 10, and TC Compass.
Any ideas on a cure or fix for this issue? Rock Crusher Press used in the processing.
Thanks,
Dick
 
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Bolt guns or semi autos?

If bolt guns, does the bolt close on resized case? If you just neck size you can increase the life of your brass.

For semi autos you can order small base sizing dies. This makes sure that the gun can chamber the round.

Other issues include case thickness. Weigh 10 of each case by headstamps and compare the weight vs the manufacturer.

Lastly get a micrometer and check cases at the base vs what the standard is.

Lastly the case gauge doesn't have the camming power that a rifle bolt would have compared to finger pressure.

There is a lot to look at. Happy hunting or whatever. I hope you get some answers.

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Just because you installed the die according to factory directions does not mean it is properly installed for your rifle. You might have to tinker with it a bit to get it right. You may get also check the rims for burs if you can push the cases all the way in with your fingers.
 
Charlie said:
Just because you installed the die according to factory directions does not mean it is properly installed for your rifle. You might have to tinker with it a bit to get it right. You may get also check the rims for burs if you can push the cases all the way in with your fingers.
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They did similarly last loading and chambered ok. I'm just wondering why the Barnes casings fall right into the gauge and R-P, Nosler, and Hornady won't. No adjustments were made after the initial set up. All cases were sized the same!
Does anyone know what brass Barnes uses for their factory loads.......if so I want some.
 
......double check the simple stuff. Is the gage getting caked up with lube?

I would buy some head space case gages (not sure if thats the correct name). Its a gauge that you can measure how much you set the shoulder back. Hornady makes or did make a set that was about $40 IIRC.
You might need to slightly adjust for different brands of brass.
 
Charlie said:
Just because you installed the die according to factory directions does not mean it is properly installed for your rifle. You might have to tinker with it a bit to get it right. You may get also check the rims for burs if you can push the cases all the way in with your fingers.
Click to expand...
I havn't micrometered the base diameters.....need to do that because its like there is a ever so slight bulge right at the bottom of the case.
 
BowWow said:
......double check the simple stuff. Is the gage getting caked up with lube?

I would buy some head space case gages (not sure if thats the correct name). Its a gauge that you can measure how much you set the shoulder back. Hornady makes or did make a set that was about $40 IIRC.
You might need to slightly adjust for different brands of brass.
Click to expand...
Not caked up.....gauge is clean.
Someone please explain why the same die would size all the Barnes brass to properly drop into the gauge while other brands won't. Thats my BIG question here. I'm at wit's end trying to figure that question out.
 
......i have loaded weak ammo that may have not even needed to be resized. The neck didnt expand enough to make a gas seal...possibly the barnes ammo?

I have also have had hot loads that realy stretched out the brass.

Possibly the dies were set to the barnes brass, but need to be set to the other brass.

There are tolerances in the manufacturing of brass. One brand or batch might be slightly oversized or undersized from a different brand.
 
dickieray said:
almost all would not fit flush in my Hornady case gauge without applying some pressure. Usually there are similar issues with 243 w and 308 w as well.
Click to expand...
How much pressure? If you can push them in with your fingers, the problem is not the sizing die. An improperly sized case should require a lot of force to get the base flat with the gauge since you would be resizing the case with the gauge. It is interesting that you have the same issue with 243 and 308. What have you done with those chamberings to solve the problem? Do the cases chamber in your rifles? You do not have a problem if they do. The rifle chamber is the only gauge that matters.
 
Charlie said:
How much pressure? If you can push them in with your fingers, the problem is not the sizing die. An improperly sized case should require a lot of force to get the base flat with the gauge since you would be resizing the case with the gauge. It is interesting that you have the same issue with 243 and 308. What have you done with those chamberings to solve the problem? Do the cases chamber in your rifles? You do not have a problem if they do. The rifle chamber is the only gauge that matters.
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Not much pressure.....3-5 # maybe
 
dickieray said:
Not caked up.....gauge is clean.
Someone please explain why the same die would size all the Barnes brass to properly drop into the gauge while other brands won't. Thats my BIG question here. I'm at wit's end trying to figure that question out.
Click to expand...

Could be the variables of the cases themselves. How many loadings on the other cases as compared to the Barnes. Has the cases that didn't fit started to thin out and are about to give you case head separation. Could they be harder than the Barnes and are springing back after sizing.

I dont have an answer for you, but it could be something simple in the cases.
 
The Barnes brass is softer than the others. When the others come out of the sizing die, they rebound slightly and the final dimensions can be slightly larger than the sizing die. Softer brass doesn't rebound as much and comes out smaller. Some good search terms are modulus of elasticity and elastic deformation.

If the sized brass goes into your rifle chamber with little pressure on the bolt, It's fine. A gauge is only useful if you're loading ammo to fit different rifles, or self loaders that don't have much cam power. There are manufacturing tolerances in the gauge, the die, and the chamber.
 
Try painting the entire case with a Sharpie. Let it dry. Then push the case fully into the case gauge, pull it out, and where you see the ink rubbed off, that is your problem.

Also, turn the case around and try inserting the head first, this is a good way to see if the problem is with a burr on the rim, or in the web area.
 
A couple months ago I loaded up twenty rds of .308 using R-P brass that I did not use the Lee factory crimp die. I also loaded twenty more , same brass, that I DID crimp with the Lee crimp die. I was running a test to see the difference in velocity between the crimped and non crimped.
After loading them up I checked them all in my Lyman case gauge. All the crimped rounds dropped in perfectly while only one of the non crimped rounds fit correctly. I did shoot them all and found the non crimped cartridges took a bit more pressure to close the bolt on my Sako rifle.

As a side note the velocity difference was average 96 fps faster from the crimped rounds.
 
biganimal said:
A couple months ago I loaded up twenty rds of .308 using R-P brass that I did not use the Lee factory crimp die. I also loaded twenty more , same brass, that I DID crimp with the Lee crimp die. I was running a test to see the difference in velocity between the crimped and non crimped.
After loading them up I checked them all in my Lyman case gauge. All the crimped rounds dropped in perfectly while only one of the non crimped rounds fit correctly. I did shoot them all and found the non crimped cartridges took a bit more pressure to close the bolt on my Sako rifle.

As a side note the velocity difference was average 96 fps faster from the crimped rounds.
Click to expand...
Were you using the factory crimp die?
 
I've had this issue with cases before. Often with 45 acp and 9mm as well. Problem is in the brass. It sizes but springs back too much. Won't fit gauge and quite often won't have enough tension to hold a bullet. As such, I pitch it out.
 
biganimal said:
A couple months ago I loaded up twenty rds of .308 using R-P brass that I did not use the Lee factory crimp die. I also loaded twenty more , same brass, that I DID crimp with the Lee crimp die. I was running a test to see the difference in velocity between the crimped and non crimped.
After loading them up I checked them all in my Lyman case gauge. All the crimped rounds dropped in perfectly while only one of the non crimped rounds fit correctly. I did shoot them all and found the non crimped cartridges took a bit more pressure to close the bolt on my Sako rifle.

As a side note the velocity difference was average 96 fps faster from the crimped rounds.
Click to expand...
Sorry biganimal......i read the post again and see you did use a FC die. Interesting results, but makes sense to me.
 
I find the Lee Factory Crimp Die for straight wall pistol cases to be like an overall finishing die. It resizes the entire round and assures chamber fit. The necked rifle case FCD is more like a neck crimp die only and often use one to put the final crimp on a rounds previously seated separately.

Does a once fired case drop into the case guage freely? What about a freshly sized but not trimmed case? How are you trimming? Are you using a Little Crow? They base off tIhe shoulder, not OAL. I see all the time where aggressive trimming leaves a lip at the case mouth. 1/8" standout is a lot. Is your die set in full contact with the shell holder?
I like the Sheridan cutaway case guages.
 
My guess is that the base of the case has a slight bulge. If you have this issue, you can correct it with a small base die or sometimes a body die will correct it. Try taking a caliper measurement at the web, which is about a 1/4 of an inch above the base or rim of your case. Compare a case that fits easily into the case gauge and one that doesn't. If I run my 7 SAUM hard, that is my first pressure sign. I once had a factory rifle that ruined brass by bulging the base. My smith did a chamber cast and found out that it was a very loose chamber at the base. I had him chamber a new barrel and boom, the issue went away with a tighter chamber
 
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