School me on AR quality.

jmccracken1214

jmccracken1214

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Ive had a lot of AR's over the years, carried Colt and FN in the army.

Debating on building another and I find myself looking at BCM, Adam Arms, DD... etc.. WTF...

Seriously............ WTF.

A MK12 upper, UPPER.... HALF A GUN..... NO LOWER.... $1300+ W.......T.......F!???!!!?!?

I can build 4 PSA carbines for that.

Someone, please, Im being for real.... educate me on the reason, other than the brand... why are some of these manufactures 6x the cost of a PSA rifle. Where is PSA skimmping, out of the barrel, is there a huge difference to remotely come close to justifying the cost?
 
jmccracken1214 said:
Ive had a lot of AR's over the years, carried Colt and FN in the army.

Debating on building another and I find myself looking at BCM, Adam Arms, DD... etc.. WTF...

Seriously............ WTF.

A MK12 upper, UPPER.... HALF A GUN..... NO LOWER.... $1300+ W.......T.......F!???!!!?!?

I can build 4 PSA carbines for that.

Someone, please, Im being for real.... educate me on the reason, other than the brand... why are some of these manufactures 6x the cost of a PSA rifle. Where is PSA skimmping, out of the barrel, is there a huge difference to remotely come close to justifying the cost?
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The significant increase in cost for a Mk12 is the barrel, and if you want to get the for-real, spec hand guard. You can build a Mk12 a hella lot cheaper than buying it complete. But if you want to get an authentico reproduction of the mil-issue Mk12 you're going to pay.
 
Chuckman said:
The significant increase in cost for a Mk12 is the barrel, and if you want to get the for-real, spec hand guard. You can build a Mk12 a hella lot cheaper than buying it complete. But if you want to get an authentico reproduction of the mil-issue Mk12 you're going to pay.
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Not just the MK12, any rifle made by any of those companies is $1300+

I dont understand where the value is, what am I getting for $1300, $1500, $1800.. that Im not getting with a $600 PSA rifle.
 
jmccracken1214 said:
Not just the MK12, any rifle made by any of those companies is $1300+

I dont understand where the value is, what am I getting for $1300, $1500, $1800.. that Im not getting with a $600 PSA rifle.
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$700,$900, $1200 lighter in the wallet....

Mil spec is mil spec.
Now with that being said....YES you can get better than mil spec...tighter tolerances etc.

A PSA will go bang.
A BCM will go bang.
A Daniel Defense will go bang.
A Larue will go bang.
A Colt will go bang.
You get the idea. I never understood the high priced ARs. Sure, some may be better quality..but the US military doesn't give our men and women crap when they may need to use it for war. Sure, if company A is less expensive than company B, they get the gov contract....but if mil spec is the "standard" who cares if it better than mil spec. They put their lives on the line.

I think some people just like to spend extra money cause they have it.

That's my opinion.....

DS

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
 
jmccracken1214 said:
Not just the MK12, any rifle made by any of those companies is $1300+

I dont understand where the value is, what am I getting for $1300, $1500, $1800.. that Im not getting with a $600 PSA rifle.
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Well, we will be beating a dead horse that we beat in here before. If you order their components and build it yourself it will be cheaper than buying a complete rifle. But part of the cost is transferred to their QA. Most of those companies have six sigma QA standards, that's why there are so few lemons with the components.

I'm not saying anything negative about PSA because I don't know anything about PSA or what their standards with quality control are. The company with the best price to quality ratio is Colt.
 
And the Somalinans dropped their $400 AK in the mud, shook it off and it still goes bang.....


DS

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
 
A better barrel ($100- $200+ bump), usually good or better trigger ($25-$200 bump), usually furniture and rail get an upgrade ($50-$300), maybe upgraded BCG ($20-$150 bump). The other cost increase is the assembly costs ... more than just a minimum skilled assembler (paying a person with skills rather than a monkey with a wrench) and tools to do so. More like someone who trues the barrel up to the upper receiver and other fitting tweaks.

We’ve brought them up in other threads but dollar for dollar now I’d take a Barnes Machine Basic AR I can pick up for $730 plus tax ... excellent barrel, decent trigger, sweet free floated rail and excellent fitband finish. I’d swap out the butt stock and grip ... add sights and run it like I stole for under $1,000 easy.
 
1.) what are you going to be doing with this rifle?

2.) if the answer to 1 is anything other than self defense go with PSA if you want. If it’s self defense then I’d go with a barnes or something better. Like said above. The components can be better in a more expensive rifle but most of the cost your paying for is the person putting it together and the QA process the company is using. I’ve got a BCM and a PSA and a couple I put together. Hands down my BCM feels better to me and shoots better. Now the mid length gas system does aid in that , my others are carbines.


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jmccracken1214 said:
Not just the MK12, any rifle made by any of those companies is $1300+

I dont understand where the value is, what am I getting for $1300, $1500, $1800.. that Im not getting with a $600 PSA rifle.
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What are you getting from a Dan Wesson 1911 that you aren't getting from a Taurus? :p
 
NCFubar said:
A better barrel ($100- $200+ bump), usually good or better trigger ($25-$200 bump), usually furniture and rail get an upgrade ($50-$300), maybe upgraded BCG ($20-$150 bump). The other cost increase is the assembly costs ... more than just a minimum skilled assembler (paying a person with skills rather than a monkey with a wrench) and tools to do so. More like someone who trues the barrel up to the upper receiver and other fitting tweaks.

We’ve brought them up in other threads but dollar for dollar now I’d take a Barnes Machine Basic AR I can pick up for $730 plus tax ... excellent barrel, decent trigger, sweet free floated rail and excellent fitband finish. I’d swap out the butt stock and grip ... add sights and run it like I stole for under $1,000 easy.
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Barnes is always a good answer. Unless you are dumpster diving. Then do as you will.
 
CZfool68 said:
Any mag either? @fakenews!
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He’s got two mags paired side by side wrapped in muslin



As for the quality of the ARs...it’s hard to explain it.

Like Chuck mentioned the clone game is always seriously expensive. The Mk12s have specific parts that make them Mk12s and they are limited in number or exacting in specification (like the barrel cut and profile for the Ops can).

Quality wise...I started with some PSA builds and parts. The only ones I have left now are 1 BCG which is a spare and 1 lower (an OIF commemorative edition).

Their “match” barrels just aren’t as “match” as I’d like, I’ve seen a lot of over size gas ports (big deal for me)...the devil is in the details

If you want a gun you can pull out of the box and load a 30 round mag and shoot it a few times a year, PSA is just fine. I personally am taking a different road
 
Plus 1 for Barnes. For the price point, quality of material, and build you just can't beat them. I've owned, still own, been issued or performed test and evaluation on all the rifles mentioned above. What I have discovered the places you must have outstanding quality is in 3 part of the rifle, barrel, bolt carrier group, and trigger. Barnes has outstanding quality in those 3 areas. Keep in mind Barnes trigger is a mil-spec trigger, there are better aftermarket triggers, but for a stock mil-spec trigger Barnes is top notch.
 
jmccracken1214 said:
You guys with the Barnes and similar.. I wondering accuracy with them using wolf or xm193 compared to a PSA.
I know the ammo itself isn't that great, just wonder if the little more pricey barrel shoots it better
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Not speaking to Barnes, specifically, but the better barrels--regardless of the name of the upper to which they are attached--shoot better. But yeah, ammo quality is part of the equation. But if you want an AR that hits center of pie plate/body mass, that ammo in most any barrel will be fine. If you want tight groups and more precision, especially at longer distances, then better barrel and better ammo. This is why the 'precision' and competition ARs have match-grade or SS barrels and the good ol' M4 is a standard, run-of-the-mill barrel.
 
jmccracken1214 said:
Ive had a lot of AR's over the years, carried Colt and FN in the army.

Debating on building another and I find myself looking at BCM, Adam Arms, DD... etc.. WTF...

Seriously............ WTF.

A MK12 upper, UPPER.... HALF A GUN..... NO LOWER.... $1300+ W.......T.......F!???!!!?!?

I can build 4 PSA carbines for that.

Someone, please, Im being for real.... educate me on the reason, other than the brand... why are some of these manufactures 6x the cost of a PSA rifle. Where is PSA skimmping, out of the barrel, is there a huge difference to remotely come close to justifying the cost?
Click to expand...

I am not a huge AR guy but I own a few. I have Colt 6920 LEO I have had forever, BCM Keymod KMR 14.5" Complete Rifle, BCM Keymod KMR 16" upper on an Aero lower & a PSA 18". My go to is the 14.5" BCM which has a LaRue trigger MBT-S2, Ainpoint T2 etc... Overall its operates smoother than the other rifles. I like the weight length and setup. It works better for me than the other rifles but this is pretty subjective.

Objectively they all work and are capable of better groups than I can shoot. I am the weak link in the chain not the rifle. I do find the PSA to be the sloppest of the guns I own. Its tolerances in the the build is not on par with the other guns. The Colt is a great AR and was built back when they were still on the top of their game IMHO but its heavy a bit clunky.

One thing about PSA is that they used to be mainly an assembler. They bought parts from lots of places and slapped them together into functioning rifles. These days they make more and more parts in house. As they have made this transition and the AR15 market bottomed out they have become sloppier ans sloppier. Even their non-blemished rifles have what other manufacturers would consider a blemish on them. They are not bad and still work for the most part but they are what they are. They also have horrible customer service. Some of the worst in the industry. For my $$$ paying a little more and getting a tighter rifle from a company that will answer the phone if there is an issue is worth it.

Like most things in the gun industry as you move up in price point you are paying for better parts and more attention to fit and finish on those parts. Tolerances are tighter. QC for the most part is better. There is a law of diminishing returns at play and IMHO this is a subjective sliding scale. It is hard to tell someone else it is worth it or it isn't. These days the AR15 mass market is a race to the bottom. The gap between the lowest cost rifle and higher end ones is growing. Kind of like the 1911 market.

Like everything it all comes down to what you are going to use the rifle for and how deep are your pockets. I am a minute of man type of AR15 shooter. I am shooting 50 to 10 yards at mansized targets while I am standing shooting offhand. I am not looking to shoot tiny little groups off a bench. All the guns in my safe can do that. So the one's that are more than just basic rifles are that way because I wanted them that way vs needed them that way.

Most of the time I recommend 3 companies for complete AR15s these days.

-S&W M&P15 Sport II is my go to recommendation for a basic entry level rifle. For someone who is going to shoot it a few times a year at a square range and does not need a rail system. These can be had right around $500. You can add $100-$150 for a S&W M-lok rail on the factory rifle. It comes with a lifetime warranty from S&W and they stand behind their products.

-Aero Precision OEM Mid Length Gas 16" is my next choice. These can be had for $500. Right Now at Brownells for $509 -$30 + $15 FFL Transfer and a $50 gift card. I like these as a step up from a full factory build but not a complete home build. You simply add your rail and handguard of choice and you are good to go. This give you a solid factory built foundation with flexibility where most people want it. You get the stock, handguard and sights you want. You have a customish rifle for under $800.

-Finally if you want to go whole hog I like BCM. You can get a excellent rifle for around $1200-$1500 depending on spec and it will do whatever you ask of it if you specd it right. I am not sure the represent the value the other 2 rifles I listed do but they are really nice and are a lot less than some of the other premium brands.
 
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I won't rehash my thoughts since I think they are pretty well covered by @Chuckman and @wvsig as well as typed out in a few threads over the last year here (including the one I just necro'd regarding the $605 Colt OEM2).

I'll say it like this: buy the PSA and shoot it how you want. Range, class, whatever. If it messes up or is doing something you don't like, figure out why and either fix or replace.

Since the $605 Colt OEM2 is sold out now, I'd say buy this and add your favorite optic. There's probably not a better deal out there right now on a new gun: https://www.recoilgunworks.com/spm16-ar15-carbine-p-40510.html
 
JRHorne said:
I won't rehash my thoughts since I think they are pretty well covered by @Chuckman and @wvsig as well as typed out in a few threads over the last year here (including the one I just necro'd regarding the $605 Colt OEM2).

I'll say it like this: buy the PSA and shoot it how you want. Range, class, whatever. If it messes up or is doing something you don't like, figure out why and either fix or replace.

Since the $605 Colt OEM2 is sold out now, I'd say buy this and add your favorite optic. There's probably not a better deal out there right now on a new gun: https://www.recoilgunworks.com/spm16-ar15-carbine-p-40510.html
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Those LMTs are great carbines for a solid price.
 
I've been building ARs since 87' with my first Olympic/SGW lower. Lots of USGI parts then. Except for those issued to me, I've built 10-12 ARs for myself and family. Money is in the parts. You can build a cheap plinker/truck gun or make a precision 1000 yd shooter. I like Green Mountain barrels for their accuracy.

CD
 
Honda/Mercedes
They both have seats and drive and get you where you are going. There is a price difference.

IMO: all the forged milspec AR stuff like Colt/BCM/LMT is all basic milspec stuff and just slightly higher quality than a PSA. In my limited experience, BCM is no better than Aero. I'd rather have a Barnes than a BCM. I pick up a Colt and can't understand why people love them. Feels like a clunky carbine and the kind of thing I'd issue a bunch of people in my army, if I had one. This is fine stuff, and not junk by any means, but its the Civic of the rifle world. It gets you were you are going. Just my opinion. I look at PSA as the KIA of the rifle world. Building a Civic that will work perfect for most people for cheaper, albeit with none of the reputation the Civic has.

I've never used or wanted an AR for anything other than competition. Built my first one like 4-5 years ago. Never owned a factory built one and never will. I don't care what GI's carry or what boots they wear. I am not going to war this weekend, I am going to a range to practice or compete, so that drives my needs/wants. I'm not buying them for possible "SHTF". They are tools for fun and becoming a better shooter. . I know if I buy a PSA/BCM/Colt I will end up with a stripped lower/upper and a bunch of basic milspec parts left over. I'll even change the pins. So, I'll be well over 1G no matter what. So, my wants and needs are going to be different and individual. Now, plenty of people will be at the match with all the rifles listed above, and some will probably kick my ass. Probably coming off as a snob, but my point is: use drives the need.

If all you are looking for is a cheap blaster to shoot the cheapest ammo you can find, PSA or something under 500$ will serve you well and be all you could want or need.

If you are spending over 1500$ it had better say "JP" on it, lol.
 
I bought my HK mainly as an investment. Their firearms generally appreciate at a great rate over others, and I like some of the features. They're heavy as hell for an AR though.

I do want to pick up a budget AR to go beat around some day.
 
Grim said:
I bought my HK mainly as an investment. Their firearms generally appreciate at a great rate over others, and I like some of the features. They're heavy as hell for an AR though.

I do want to pick up a budget AR to go beat around some day.
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They ARE heavy, and I am glad I do not have to tote one in service to our country (a la USMC M27 IAR). As for appreciation...my best friend's dad was majority owner of a gunshop in Hillsborough in the 70s and 80s. When he sold his share, he kept several rifles, a couple HK91s and HK93s among them. In the mid-80s the 93 sticker price was $600 and change. My friend still has them, a couple unfired, still has those price tags attached. He said they are part of his retirement package and in case he needs quick cash.

But if I had a HK AR, I would be shooting the crap out of it. It's built to take a crap-load of abuse.
 
I've got an ArmaLite that I bought off the shelf, and a half dozen AR's I've built. All my built guns contain at least some PSA parts, some more than others. To date, all of them have gone bang with whatever ammo I've fed them. All my PSA guns have shot 1.5-2 MOA groups with good ammo, and some even better.

The ArmaLite has better fit and finish, but it also cost twice what some of my cheaper PSA guns did.

My $0.02 is, unless you're planning to go to war, don't worry about buying a cheaper AR. PSA stuff is good to go. As long as its milspec, its going to run just fine. You can pay a lot more for better quality, but unless you have very specific needs out of the gun, the money's probably better spent on ammo and range time.
 
Chuckman said:
They ARE heavy, and I am glad I do not have to tote one in service to our country (a la USMC M27 IAR). As for appreciation...my best friend's dad was majority owner of a gunshop in Hillsborough in the 70s and 80s. When he sold his share, he kept several rifles, a couple HK91s and HK93s among them. In the mid-80s the 93 sticker price was $600 and change. My friend still has them, a couple unfired, still has those price tags attached. He said they are part of his retirement package and in case he needs quick cash.

But if I had a HK AR, I would be shooting the crap out of it. It's built to take a crap-load of abuse.
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My MR556 has only been out once so far, just to zero the flip up front sight and diopter. I've fired my MR762 a lot, trying to diagnose an issue with the gas port, which has since been corrected (undersized). I'll be taking it out a lot more to get data on it out to 1000.
 
Grim said:
My MR556 has only been out once so far, just to zero the flip up front sight and diopter. I've fired my MR762 a lot, trying to diagnose an issue with the gas port, which has since been corrected (undersized). I'll be taking it out a lot more to get data on it out to 1000.
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Yes...I do love me some MR762...

IMG_20170825_133618.jpg
 
Here's mine.

897eb204-d086-4a59-8f0c-e64d061a3c71-original.jpg
 
NKD said:
Honda/Mercedes
They both have seats and drive and get you where you are going. There is a price difference.

IMO: all the forged milspec AR stuff like Colt/BCM/LMT is all basic milspec stuff and just slightly higher quality than a PSA. In my limited experience, BCM is no better than Aero. I'd rather have a Barnes than a BCM. I pick up a Colt and can't understand why people love them. Feels like a clunky carbine and the kind of thing I'd issue a bunch of people in my army, if I had one. This is fine stuff, and not junk by any means, but its the Civic of the rifle world. It gets you were you are going. Just my opinion. I look at PSA as the KIA of the rifle world. Building a Civic that will work perfect for most people for cheaper, albeit with none of the reputation the Civic has.

I've never used or wanted an AR for anything other than competition. Built my first one like 4-5 years ago. Never owned a factory built one and never will. I don't care what GI's carry or what boots they wear. I am not going to war this weekend, I am going to a range to practice or compete, so that drives my needs/wants. I'm not buying them for possible "SHTF". They are tools for fun and becoming a better shooter. . I know if I buy a PSA/BCM/Colt I will end up with a stripped lower/upper and a bunch of basic milspec parts left over. I'll even change the pins. So, I'll be well over 1G no matter what. So, my wants and needs are going to be different and individual. Now, plenty of people will be at the match with all the rifles listed above, and some will probably kick my ass. Probably coming off as a snob, but my point is: use drives the need.

If all you are looking for is a cheap blaster to shoot the cheapest ammo you can find, PSA or something under 500$ will serve you well and be all you could want or need.

If you are spending over 1500$ it had better say "JP" on it, lol.
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I'd say the Colts are the Toyota Camry's. There's a billion of them and they'll all run 300K miles with basic maintenance. It helps that full carbines are ~$700 right now. I have 5 Colts now and the most I've paid for one is still under $750, and those 2 were the Trooper which has a damn MLOK Centurion rail on it!
 
I will agree that for most people a PSA rifle is fine but there is a huge difference in the fit/feel/finish in a PSA and a top shelf rifle. The devil is in the details. Properly sized gas ports, barrel nuts that aren’t so tight they need a 4ft breaker bar or need to be cut off (I have seen this with a PSA rifle). It’s not their AR15 line but at Mid Carolina Saturday matches, the PSA AR9s fail like clockwork for all sorts of reasons. I’ve seen well over a dozen go down at that place.

If the quality level of a particular brand meets or surpasses your needs and it saves money over another model, I am all for the saved cash being free to spend on ammo, optics, etc but there IS a difference and slapping the word milspec on something doesn’t mean it’s going to be identical to another “milspec” something. Like Tommy Boy says “I can take a dump in a box and slap a guarantee on it and all you’ve got is a guaranteed piece of crap”
 
Majicmike said:
All AR's are like glass so treat them as such. That way they will run correctly 80% of the time
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Back before he was BCM backed Larry was a DD spokesman and did some testing ...



Also note the Aimpoint T2 is run thru it also.
 
11B CIB said:
I will agree that for most people a PSA rifle is fine but there is a huge difference in the fit/feel/finish in a PSA and a top shelf rifle. The devil is in the details. Properly sized gas ports, barrel nuts that aren’t so tight they need a 4ft breaker bar or need to be cut off (I have seen this with a PSA rifle). It’s not their AR15 line but at Mid Carolina Saturday matches, the PSA AR9s fail like clockwork for all sorts of reasons. I’ve seen well over a dozen go down at that place.

If the quality level of a particular brand meets or surpasses your needs and it saves money over another model, I am all for the saved cash being free to spend on ammo, optics, etc but there IS a difference and slapping the word milspec on something doesn’t mean it’s going to be identical to another “milspec” something. Like Tommy Boy says “I can take a dump in a box and slap a guarantee on it and all you’ve got is a guaranteed piece of crap”
Click to expand...

This.
Everyone: read the red stuff. Then read it again!
 
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