Shockwave illegal in NC ?

bigfelipe said:
Wait, are you saying that isn't an AOW?
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I am saying the picture I posted above (Black Aces Tactical), the Mossberg Shockwave, and the Remington TAC-14 are non-NFA items.

You walk into a store, without a pistol purchase permit, and without a NC concealed handgun permit, fill out 4473, and as long as you are over 21, and pass the NICs check, you pay and walk out with this gun. No $200 or $5 stamp.
 
First, could the NCGS can supersede ATF regs like other states supersede ATF regs on mag capacity? Just asking ...

Second, if it is left the the NC AG it will not be legal ... Joke Stein is worse than Roy Stooper especially in gun laws.
 
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bigfelipe said:
That's what I have been saving since the beginning of the thread.
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Agree with you, my posting the ATF definition was in reply to the NC Statute posted by thrillhill.
NC Statute referenced shotgun and shockwave is not.
 
thrillhill said:
I am saying the picture I posted above (Black Aces Tactical), the Mossberg Shockwave, and the Remington TAC-14 are non-NFA items.

You walk into a store, without a pistol purchase permit, and without a NC concealed handgun permit, fill out 4473, and as long as you are over 21, and pass the NICs check, you pay and walk out with this gun. No $200 or $5 stamp.
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Really? Ok. Now it makes sense. I thought they were already AOWs. That's why I was confused.

Guy buying one at Lawman's said it was an AOW. I assumed he had a stamp.
 
Bud cesna a gunstore owner and range operator in Lincoln county was also quoted, if you Google, wsoc news story on the Mossberg shockwave, it's already on the net,I couldn't get the link to work
 
If the NC AG (Stein is a liberal idiot on gun matters too) issues any opinion on this you know a lot of the Sheriffs and PD Chiefs will jump all over it. Since the statute says "offer to sell" I honestly can't blame the LGSs for erring on the side of caution (especially in Mecklenburg Co) because not just the ATF can bust 'me and/or make their business miserable ... this is going to get interesting real fast.
 
Research shows that Mossberg knew these laws might be a problem as early as 2014 when they couldn't ship a preproduction model to a gun writer for evaluation because it was illegal in the state he lived in. But Mossberg decided to go ahead with production, when the ATF came down on their side
 
You cannot make a Shockwave on your own because you would be altering a shotgun. The Shockwave has never had a stock on it before, so it is not altered.
 
They're definitely not shotguns.

I bought mine as an AOW (red $5 stamp), and the measurement on the F4 is without any kind of grip. So, I'm free to add any pistol grip or birdshead grip or any other non-stock grip, and can float over and under 26" without any concern.

It was close enough to a gray area that I wasn't taking the chance. Technically AOWs don't have to be under 26". It's a general guideline (as that's where the line is drawn for SBR/SBS), but the ATF has stated some firearms over 26" can be AOWs. For example, a cane gun.

But, when you have an anti for Gov, AG, and the NCSA as a whole, who knows what you end up with?
 
Geezer said:
You cannot make a Shockwave on your own because you would be altering a shotgun. The Shockwave has never had a stock on it before, so it is not altered.
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you could by buying a bare "shotgun" receiver (hard to come by) or a PGO "shotgun" and change the grip

I have to say "shotgun" because you all will know what I mean...but a smooth bore firearm designed to fire shotgun shells
 
Heck I'll take a bite.


Per the ATF page:
  1. The ATF defines a firearm (within the context of this discussion regarding guns that fire shells not rifles) as The term ‘‘firearm’’ means (1) a shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (2) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length;... cont.
  2. The ATF defines a shotgun as The term “Shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder, and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.
  3. The ATF defines an Any other Weapon as The term ‘‘any other weapon’’ means any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.
NC General statue 14-288.8 I parsed it below due to its reference of a "shotgun" and "assumingly" the NC Sheriffs organization saying the 14" barreled gun is a Weapon of mass destruction.
  • A WMD is 1abcdef.. (2) Any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell of a type particularly suitable for sporting purposes) which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter; or (3) Any firearm capable of fully automatic fire, any shotgun with a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length or an overall length of less than 26 inches, any rifle with a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length or an overall length of less than 26 inches, any muffler or silencer for any firearm, whether or not such firearm is included within this definition. For the purposes of this section, rifle is defined as a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder; or (4) Any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into any weapon described above and from which a weapon of mass death and destruction may readily be assembled

My understanding regarding these 14" barreled guns is this: Correct me if I'm wrong.
  • The Rem and Moss 14" guns are defined by the ATF as "Firearms" which is the loophole that makes them legal. This is due to the receiver having never had a shoulder stock attached and the OAL of 26". The serial number issued by the factory was never registered as a "shotgun".
  • This is the same for PGO (pistol grip only) guns (that fire a 12g shell) with an OAL of 26". The ATF defines them as a "firearm" as they are a receiver that never had a shoulder stock attached at the factory and thus never a "shotgun".
  • If it (originally from the factory) had a stock attached with an 18"+ length barrel it would have been a "shotgun" and if cut down would be considered an AOW (require the NFA stamp) since the receiver originated as registered (serial number issued by factory) "shotgun".

So...
It seems to me the whole issue revolves around what NC defines as a "shotgun" I could not find the NC General Statue on what NC defines as a "shotgun". If the NC general statues do not define what is a "shotgun", then I would guess it should revert to what the ATF defines as a "shotgun" and since the ATF does not define the Remington and Mossberg 14" guns as shotguns there is no issue and buy/sell away. If NC has a very loose definition of a shotgun then there could be some merit to making it an WMD.

All this said, I'm not a lawyer and just thoughts on it all.
 
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The issue this type of design lends it's self too is this:

1. The barrel is not rifled
2. The action is manual with a strap on the pump
3. Not all states follow NFA / GCA in definition

I get it, the manufacturer made it, got a ruling that it's a firearm. Due to that it's in a Grey area not at the fed but in some states.
 
Here is the pdf of the atf letter from mossberg.

For the rundown tl;Dr crowd. Atf letter considers it a "firearm" nc is currently unsure how to handle it.

From what I gather nc law does NOT define handguns, rifles, or shotguns. The pertinent part is that they do define a weapon of mass destruction as a shotgun with a barrel under 18 inches or under 26 inches total length.

Basically if you go with strict interpetations of atf regulations then this isn't a shotgun. But if you go by common vernacular it totally is no matter the nods and winks.


Also atf letters are not case law, they carry very little actual weight. Nothing more than one man's opinion.

Point of interest also the Mossberg is .125 inches over the limit. So if you drop it too hard and snap a piece off. Well now it is illegal.

Finally legal or not i don't envision enjoying the explanation to the cops. I might avoid the charge, but I sure as he'll don't think I would avoid the ride
 

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bigfelipe said:
Really? Ok. Now it makes sense. I thought they were already AOWs. That's why I was confused.

Guy buying one at Lawman's said it was an AOW. I assumed he had a stamp.
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Federally, they're one of those gray area guns, classified as a "Firearm". NC law conflicts, however.
 
Jerzsubbie said:
Federally, they're one of those gray area guns, classified as a "Firearm". NC law conflicts, however.
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Did I miss it in this thread? What NC law does it conflict with?
 
BigWaylon said:
Did I miss it in this thread? What NC law does it conflict with?
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The part posted earlier in the thread of 18" bbl or 26" oal.
N.C. Gen. Stat. § 14-288.8 provides that it is unlawful for any person to manufacture,
assemble, possess, store, transport, sell, offer to sell, purchase, offer to purchase, deliver, give to
another, or acquire any weapon of mass death and destruction. A weapon of mass death and
destruction includes:
8. Any shotgun with a barrel length less than eighteen (18) inches or an overall length of
less than twenty-six (26) inches;
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And for those saying the NC law doesn't use "designed to be fired from the shoulder" as part of the definition of a shotgun...does NC define rifle anywhere with the same phrase? Or are all your AR pistols all of a sudden illegal SBRs? :p
 
BigWaylon said:
Did I miss it in this thread? What NC law does it conflict with?
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NC law does not define shotgun, nor does it defer the definition to the ATF's regulations.

The only comment about shotguns that this would fall under is that shotguns under 18" barrel lengths or 26" overall lengths are weapons of mass destruction.

There is not a conflict as much as a current grey area. One that can and most likely will collapse the second people get the chance. Nobody cared when black rain did something similar cause it was crazy expensive and not common. Mossberg and Remington doing it is a game changer though.
 
Jerzsubbie said:
The part posted earlier in the thread of 18" bbl or 26" oal.
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Oh, I read that part.

It doesn't conflict that as far as I'm concerned. That statute isn't defining a shotgun, it's simply using the term...which the ATF clearly defines.

And I thought we all agreed that the simple fact a firearm fires a shotgun shell doesn't make it a shotgun. If I make a cane gun that holds a single 20ga shell, or a flashlight gun that holds one .410 shell, nobody is going to call it a shotgun.
 
BigWaylon said:
Oh, I read that part.

It doesn't conflict that as far as I'm concerned. That statute isn't defining a shotgun, it's simply using the term...which the ATF clearly defines.

And I thought we all agreed that the simple fact a firearm fires a shotgun shell doesn't make it a shotgun. If I make a cane gun that holds a single 20ga shell, or a flashlight gun that holds one .410 shell, nobody is going to call it a shotgun.
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OK, not a conflict in law but conflict in definition. Federally it's a firearm, in NC it's a weapon of mass destruction.

Bottom line, I'm not going to be the test case nor try to argue this in court because I'll put my money on that as being a quick loss.
 
BigWaylon said:
Oh, I read that part.

It doesn't conflict that as far as I'm concerned. That statute isn't defining a shotgun, it's simply using the term...which the ATF clearly defines.

And I thought we all agreed that the simple fact a firearm fires a shotgun shell doesn't make it a shotgun. If I make a cane gun that holds a single 20ga shell, or a flashlight gun that holds one .410 shell, nobody is going to call it a shotgun.
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To put it frankly it isn't your concern that matters, or mine...or anyone's but the NC AG, and if they decide to press charges, the opinion of the jury.

You really think a random jury isn't going to look at that and see anything other than a sawed off shotgun? I don't like those odds myself.


But buy away if you want. People should be free to make their own choices.

Although personally "shotguns" without stocks are not all that useful in my mind anyway.
 
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And the judge revolver is banned in some states for being a rotating shotgun aka Street sweeper.
 
Jerzsubbie said:
OK, not a conflict in law but conflict in definition. Federally it's a firearm, in NC it's a weapon of mass destruction.

Bottom line, I'm not going to be the test case nor try to argue this in court because I'll put my money on that as being a quick loss.
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NC definition says it has to be a shotgun with those measurements, which it's not.

Any lawyer worth their fee would walk into courtroom with a copy of 26 USC 5845 and tell them to pound sand.

shadowsbane said:
But buy away if you want. People should be free to make their own choices.
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Already have mine. ;)

IMG_7499.JPG
 
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All this over a "shotgun" that's a pain to shoot (both figuratively and literally) and difficult to aim. :rolleyes:

They always look good in the movies, but not very practical in real life.
 
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Even Tubbs had 2 pistol grips on his Serbu shawty
d5ce91d77677c777a27b98344ca21920.jpg
 
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A buddy had a pistol gripped Crusier. It's the only gun I've ever stopped shooting midstream and handed over saying, Here, you shoot it a while. He wouldn't last a magazine before handing it back saying the same thing. The pistol grip was a pain in the butt, but I have to admit, the inline grip is a better design and makes me want to play with one, again.
All shotguns make me smile. Jack Furr, from Gunsite, used to say, "I like my handguns, but I love my shotguns." :D
 
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I wouldn't worry about getting in trouble with one that was purchased on fed paperwork. At most even if they do declare it illegal they will have to have somesort of ammnesty program since so many thousands of them have been purchased in NC?
 
Qball said:
Nothing in this thread convinces me that state and federal firearm laws aren't incredibly asinine.
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Would this be a good to time say that free people need to start acting like free people and do free people stuff?
 
JBoyette said:
Who are these free people you speak of?
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That's the $64,000 question. I read some of this bs about asking for opinions and clarifications from various rulers and it is clear that people really don't see the obvious choice. Sufficient refusal to "obey" and these illegitimate systems keeping people in check break. The trick though is getting enough people to act and act as a group and stop acting like collaborators like Hyatt.
 
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