SIZE/WEIGHT/CALIBER TRADE OFFS AND THE POINT OF DIMINISHING RETURNS

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Offering up the following for discussion and healthy interaction. Given all of the variables that come in to play, lets leave light weight revolvers out of this for another discussion and lets not focus on capacity (surely another rabbit hole and variable, for sure!). The foci here will be strictly semi-autos with consideration for weight only. So, lets get started:

I've been EDC'ing a little Ruger LCP for quite some time which comes in at a svelte ~10oz. but I started thinking that maybe I want to carry a micro-9 or even a micro-45. I've had a few of each from more than a few manufacturers, can hit where I'm aiming at (typically) and am not necessarily recoil sensitive. Now I know that there are those of you who can pocket carry a full-framed 1911, but I digress. Setting the LCP .380 as the baseline..........

In doing some quick research, micro9s seem to be coming in at the 17oz'ish range (Ruger LC9) and micro45s seem to be a bit more all over the map with the Kahr PM45 coming in at ~19oz (I did not come across a lighter .45 in my "research." So considering something in the 17oz range for a 9mm would translate to a 70% jump in weight compared to the .380 LCP) and something like the Kahr PM45 would represent a doubling of the weight from the LCP,

is there.........

1) a point where the extra oomph of a micro 9mm does not make up for the weight difference of the .380 LCP?
2) a point where the extra, extra oomph of a micro45 does not make up for the doubling of weight of the .380 LCP?
3) a point where..................you fill in the blank.
3) following up to Qs 1 and 2............where is that point then?

Again, positing for healthy debate...............lets have at it!
 
Healthy lawyerly answer: it all depends. It sounds like we're discussing pocket or ankle guns exclusively here.

For me, the bottom line is this: gun weight is the determining factor without regard to recoil or cartridge "oomph."

Chambering-wise, we're talking modern bullets at low velocities from short barrels... the measurable gap between 9mm and .380 JHP performance is not that significant. I don't think I'd be first in line to volunteer to carry a .22 or a .25, but for pocket purposes, I'd treat .32 ball and modern .380/9mm JHPs as basically interchangeable with respect to expected penetration through clothes and meaty bits. 9mm should perform best, but not enough to make me go to a heavier gun.

.45 is a whole other animal with respect to expectations of performance at low velocity, but when we are talking capacity of 5+1... that makes my brain think of the guns you've disqualified from consideration. At that point, it's no longer a consideration of "oomph," but a question of "will this gun cycle every round perfectly if I have to shoot it from a compromised grip or weird position." I just wouldn't expect a gun with a tiny mag spring and short slide travel to work all that well long-term feeding heavier ammo without constant spring changes. It just feels like the reliable performance window is going to be too narrow for a gun that's going to get linty and might really only afford a one-handed grip due to size.

So, going back to weight, between .32/.380/9mm, I basically consider any pistol one pound or over to be a belt gun. With the pants and slacks I wear, and the pocket holsters I prefer (Safariland 25 or a Mika), anything really above 12 or 13 ounces swings too much. I wear slacks that tend to have slash/slant pockets, and those pockets tend to be made from thinner material. The swinging is noticeable and distracting when walking, and it compromises the draw from positions other than standing perfectly still.

That's the "it depends" part of it all. That tolerable weight window might be bigger for someone that wears dungarees every day. Slightly smaller pockets in a slightly stiffer fabric... better tolerance for heavier guns. For me, casual pants like that are day-off pants, and day-off pants mean I can carry a bigger gun on a belt under an untucked shirt.

Some folks wear cargo shorts and like to tote Sig P365s or Glock 26s in there. That would drive me nuts... both in terms of weight and in terms of access.
 
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My best suggestion? Keep the .380 and load it with Lehigh Defense screwdriver tip copper solids. Underwood makes a load with that "ultimate defender" bullet that's got some zip. A guy I know in Chicago tested it on pig carcasses and says it's not giving up much to a 9mm hollow point like a gold dot.
 
All I've got is personal experience from a decade ago. For background I choose to carry a gen1 m&p9c and before that carries a lw 1911.

Shooting an lcp at expected distance. I could put rounds where I wanted them consistently. When the lc9 came out. I couldn't put the hits where I wanted. Good hits? Sure. Not off the target or anything. But. Where I wanted them? Not so much.

Maybe the new wonder "bug" nines have fixed the issue. But if I'm going micro I want to know my rounds will go exactly where I expect.

On the .45acp. I used a kimber pro carry (4" barrel, aluminum frame) super comfy, super accurate. But as it went, well Kimber on me and I began to not trust it. I looked into plastic fantastic in the same caliber. It ends up being the exact same size, weight and capacity as all the other shields, xds's, etc in .45acp. So I never went back to the caliber as I couldn't justify the same everything, without the sublime accuracy.
 
I carried an LCP II for a while until it started getting a bit finicky on me. At the time, it would be my “deep conceal” option and a CZ-P07 was my main “full time carry”. After the LCP acted up I bought a P365 because it was a 9, had more capacity, and I could still pocket carry it.

Yes, it is heavier. No doubt. And larger. But I never carry anything else in a pocket with a firearm, so it just takes up more real estate that was vacant before anyway. I also have an IWB holster for it for when I can wear more cover clothing.

That said, I have zero issue with people who carry .380. Placement and reliability far outweigh caliber in my opinion. But on top of that, being a larger pistol I am far more accurate with the P365 than I ever was with the diminutive LCP.

Since upgrading to the pocket 9, I have rarely reached for my P-07. The pocket 9s only disadvantage is capacity for >my< practical purposes. So I usually carry a spare magazine which leaves me with 21 rounds on board. When I carried the P-07 I rarely carried a spare magazine due to its size. So, in some ways I have increased my total daily carry round count.
 
This may be unpopular, but 380 is not ideal, if offers marginal ballistics and penetration. As you get into fall/ winter where people are wearing more clothes and heavier coats - not a choice I feel comfortable with. I own a 380 that I love and wouldn’t want to stand downrange to catch bullets from it - but we have much better options with 9mm. The new micro 9mms are not much bigger than a 380, ammo is easier to find and less expensive. This matters because I am a firm proponent of train / shoot / practice with what you carry.
 
BrettB said:
This may be unpopular, but 380 is not ideal, if offers marginal ballistics and penetration. As you get into fall/ winter where people are wearing more clothes and heavier coats - not a choice I feel comfortable with. I own a 380 that I love and wouldn’t want to stand downrange to catch bullets from it - but we have much better options with 9mm. The new micro 9mms are not much bigger than a 380, ammo is easier to find and less expensive. This matters because I am a firm proponent of train / shoot / practice with what you carry.
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I agree the regular 900-1000fps .380 isn't the best. Things change when the bullets go 1200 fps. Buffalo Bore, Underwood and a few others make stuff that works just like regular 9mm.
 
I went around and around on this one myself, and I carry an LCP as my minimum except in 1 situation that's not important here.

Based on my tiny IDPA style testing, the jump to a pocket carried PM9 (which is my smallest 9mm) as far as quickly putting rounds on target wasn't worth the weight and bulk. Carrying the PM9 AIWB was easy, but once I had moved to AIWB then a G26 and later a G43x were just as easy and the time/accuracy improvements for their weight vs. the PM9 made it so that the PM9 was the lesser choice.
 
You pose a set of interesting questions. All of your common place defensive handgun calibers incapacitate the very same ways. There are two physical and one psychological means of incapacitation.

First, hit the central nervous system. Hitting the central nervous system disrupts the brain’s capabilities of communicating with muscle groups to make the body move and even breathe. Depending on where the disruption occurs, you may observe instant or delayed incapacitation. I’m some cases, the incapacitation, may be isolated to certain regions of the body. Which can mean the person is still a threat for a undesirable periods of time.

The second means of incapacitation is through hypovolemic shock. Which means the body has lost a significant amount of blood and fluids, and the heart can no longer pump vital elements needed for life. Hypovolemic shock is not instantaneous and the length of time solely depends on how fast the body is losing blood. During hypovolemic shock the body will still be able to operate and will be a threat during this period.

The third means of incapacitation is psychological. In simple terms, a person get shot and in their mind they believe they are incapacitated. Physically, the person is still a threat, yet cannot mentally make their body function. Psychological incapacitation can be short to long term. Meaning you cannot count on the person staying incapacitated.

The only way to ensure incapacitation by common defensive handgun calibers is through shot placement and penetration. If the projectile missing the central nervous system, large organs, and major blood vessels. It does not matter what handgun you are using. The best you can hope to achieve is psychological incapacitation.

Once proper shot placement has been achieved, then the projectile must be capable of penetrating deep enough to hit the central nervous system, large organs, and major blood vessels. If penetration is insufficient the best you can hope to achieve is psychological incapacitation.

To answer your questions, the matrix I use for choosing handguns, calibers, and ammunition is based upon the following. One, I must be able to accurately shoot the gun. Recoil sensitivity and grip size may rule out many fine firearms. Two, it must fit the environment and conditions. For example, summertime I’m not walking around with a Glock 17 or Government model 1911. If I have on shorts then a smaller, lighter handgun will be my choice. Three, the caliber must be capable of penetrating deep into the body through clothing. This can be achieved by muzzle velocity or bullet design. For .380, and under (or very short barreled 9mm) I’ll carry FMJ ammunition. For larger calibers and longer barrel handguns that can achieve penetration by velocity, I’ll carry JHP. This may not have answered your questions as you posed them, but it is how I make my decisions on what to carry.
 
Although I suck at pistol shooting, my $.02:

Summer: I carry a S&W Bodyguard .380 or Ruger .380
All other Seasons is a S&W MP40 Full Size IWB at 3:00.

These pistols are the ones I shoot the best. Shot placement is key regardless of .380 or .40S&W.

I am tall and have a 10 to 12 inch drop, so a full-sized pistol conceals easily on my waist. If wearing a jacket, I will go with a shoulder rig and also conceals nicely, but is slower to draw.

Regardless of weight, capacity, caliber; the key is to shoot first and incapacitate with 1 shot.
 
I prefer a cocked and locked 1911 but few places to hide it and it doesn’t fit in the fastest concealed draw , pocket . Mr Billy at battery oaks taught me that so I carry an LCP most of the time.
 
IMO carry the most gun your body allows. If you can’t handle carrying anything over a 10-20 ounce pistol get in better shape. Obviously there are times/clothes that call for small guns, A lb or so of weight shouldn’t be the determining factor IMO. Almost everyone should be able to carry a Glock 19 sized pistol.
 
I've had 380 pocket pistols for deep concealment but now for that role I have a Diamondback DB9. It is truly in the same size/weight class, in fact lower in both than many 380s. It's tiny and 11oz unloaded.

As you might expect with that power to weight ratio it's not for beginners. It's easy to limpwrist and my gen 3's trigger reset is all the way forward so can also easily be shortstroked if not practiced with enough. The gen 4's solved that I believe.

However it is the smallest lightest 9mm I know of, and yes the difference in recoil between 9mm and .380 in similar weight firearms is quite noticeable, telling me the BG should be proportionally affected. The main reason I choose 9mm over 380 though is ammo compatibility, selection, and availability. There definitely are disadvantages to a 9mm firearm this light. Controllability, the propensity to limpwrist, etc. so it's not for everyone.

I second the recommendation of the Lehigh Defense "screwdriver" Extreme Penetrator rounds over HP in 380, maybe even 9mm as well but I'm still using up my Gold Dots.
 
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I find the topic can be decided into two camps, fight or flight. Some carry to evade and escape or basically survive an encounter, while others carry to prevail in a conflict.
The first group tends to be more concerned with having adequate guns that fit their lifestyle and mode of dress. The second group tends to be more concerned with having superior firepower and change their lifestyle and dress to better carry the gun.

So, the balance line is different for different people and purposes. And the line can change, base on a given situation. I fall into the latter catagory and tend toward more firepower as that was how I was trained.

Just sayin'
 
Simple Answer: Buy a Shield Plus, P365, or 43X.

You will not regret it when you start shooting under stress and/or the clock.
 
A P32 on the low end of that spectrum and a 1911 or a G19 on the high end.
 
My question is whether you can shoot that LCP as well as you can a different pistol. I have had three LCP pistols that all were great to carry but terrible to shoot. The LCP I still have shoots OK at three yards, but good shot placement is a matter of luck at any range. My decision to go to a different carry handgun was not based on the wimpiness of a 380 but rather on the ability of other handguns to be shot more easily. I would a whole lot rather carry my Glock 380 than my LCP 380.

If, however, you are equally as skilled with an LCP as you are with other handguns, I see no reason not to carry it just because it is a 380.
 
jfanatic said:
Offering up the following for discussion and healthy interaction. Given all of the variables that come in to play, lets leave light weight revolvers out of this for another discussion and lets not focus on capacity (surely another rabbit hole and variable, for sure!). The foci here will be strictly semi-autos with consideration for weight only. So, lets get started:

I've been EDC'ing a little Ruger LCP for quite some time which comes in at a svelte ~10oz. but I started thinking that maybe I want to carry a micro-9 or even a micro-45. I've had a few of each from more than a few manufacturers, can hit where I'm aiming at (typically) and am not necessarily recoil sensitive. Now I know that there are those of you who can pocket carry a full-framed 1911, but I digress. Setting the LCP .380 as the baseline..........

In doing some quick research, micro9s seem to be coming in at the 17oz'ish range (Ruger LC9) and micro45s seem to be a bit more all over the map with the Kahr PM45 coming in at ~19oz (I did not come across a lighter .45 in my "research." So considering something in the 17oz range for a 9mm would translate to a 70% jump in weight compared to the .380 LCP) and something like the Kahr PM45 would represent a doubling of the weight from the LCP,

is there.........

1) a point where the extra oomph of a micro 9mm does not make up for the weight difference of the .380 LCP?
2) a point where the extra, extra oomph of a micro45 does not make up for the doubling of weight of the .380 LCP?
3) a point where..................you fill in the blank.
3) following up to Qs 1 and 2............where is that point then?

Again, positing for healthy debate...............lets have at it!
Click to expand...

For those that haven't had both available at the same time, here's an LCP sitting on top of a P365. The 365 is definitely heavier but it's something that I can live with as a pocket rocket.

Nice comparision doo-dad can be found here: hangunhero DOT com

I'm not sure about whether or not to post links so there's a big DOT for everyone.

Keith

IMG_20220619_123051.jpg
 
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Keith E. said:
For those that haven't had both available at the same time, here's an LCP sitting on top of a P365. The 365 is definitely heavier but it's something that I can live with as a pocket rocket.

Nice comparision doo-dad can be found here: hangunhero DOT com

I'm not sure about whether or not to post links so there's a big DOT for everyone.

Keith

View attachment 526967
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How much of a difference do you notice in the pocket? I absolutely hate pocket rockets, but am considering picking one up. Been debating between a LCP vs a P365.
 
Cole_McD said:
How much of a difference do you notice in the pocket? I absolutely hate pocket rockets, but am considering picking one up. Been debating between a LCP vs a P365.
Click to expand...

Like a heavier pair of boots, ruck, rifle, etc, it's noticeable at first. Cargo shorts with a good belt works for me.

9.6oz vs 17.8oz per hh.
www.handgunhero.com

Sig Sauer P365 vs Ruger LCP size comparison | Handgun Hero

Compare the dimensions and specs of Sig Sauer P365 and Ruger LCP
www.handgunhero.com www.handgunhero.com

Keith
 
Don't get me wrong, with pocket carry, there absolutely is a difference between the two. NPE or a different dress code, the lcp would get the nod every time.

YMMV,
Keith
 
Keith E. said:
Don't get me wrong, with pocket carry, there absolutely is a difference between the two.
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The difference in weight between a loaded LCP and a loaded P365 is approximately a loaded LCP.

Not criticizing your examples, just found that statistic amusing.
 
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I carry a shield 40 iwb. 7+1 @18 oz....

It will do if I will
 
I have a Shield Gen 1, it’s bigger than I’d pocket carry. A .380 with the Underwood rounds makes a lot of sense for that IMO. Great rounds at least in 9mm, have some 90gr +P 9mm for the PCC.

so to toss another wrinkle in. Let’s say you couldn’t get away with IWB carry for some reason. Would you off body a .45 or full size 9mm etc or would you pocket carry a .380?
 
Mathieu18 said:
I have a Shield Gen 1, it’s bigger than I’d pocket carry. A .380 with the Underwood rounds makes a lot of sense for that IMO. Great rounds at least in 9mm, have some 90gr +P 9mm for the PCC.

so to toss another wrinkle in. Let’s say you couldn’t get away with IWB carry for some reason. Would you off body a .45 or full size 9mm etc or would you pocket carry a .380?
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I’m a firm unbeliever in off-body carry. I know I’d leave it in the car when I jump out to grab a quick cup of coffee or pump gas. I have to mentally argue with myself to grab my cell phone every time I leave the car. I wear a belt gun most of the time for the same reason; it goes with me.
To answer your question; I’d carry ( and do) a pocket rocket ( caliber notwithstanding).

My only beef with 380 is availability and cost. If I carry it, I shoot it, often.
 
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Mathieu18 said:
Let’s say you couldn’t get away with IWB carry for some reason. Would you off body a .45 or full size 9mm etc or would you pocket carry a .380?
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You can do both at the same time. There is no reason to have only an off-body handgun if you can also have a pocket 380 that will always be available if needed. I keep a J-frame in my pocket and a 40 in my truck. I usually also have a rifle or shotgun in the truck.
 
As one great philosopher said,” sure it’s a big pistol when you put it on, but it’s a big pistol when you pull it out” and “always carry the biggest caliber that you can shoot and hit with”.

also he said
“Pistols put holes in people
Rifles put holes though people
Shotguns with the right load and the right distance
will remove a chuck of you opponent and throw it on the floor!”
 
THE PUNISHER said:
Oh buy the way I don’t want to be shot with a BB gun let alone a .22 or center fired anything!
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Second that! Brother shot me with an air rifle when I was 15-ish. BB is deep in my thigh to this day; too close to the femoral artery to go in for it so they left it. Felt like getting swatted with a bat ( I can make the comparison from experience, thanks to my other brother)

Repeat, or ANYTHING larger? Pass - cake please.
 
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