Stoeger Fundamentals

Beef15

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Anybody taken or planning on taking this class, or any other from Ben? Guess there's one in April. I'll be there, hopefully there's help for me.



ETA: There's a long drawn out review with no substance down thread.
 
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An unfinished blog post I wrote about the class earlier this year:

In the spring of 2016, I took Ben Stoeger's Skill and Drills class.

This is the third spring running that Ben has taught a class at a range near me, and and the third year I've taken it. This might seem odd ("What? Couldn't I learn it the first time?") until you understand the nature of the class.

The curriculum of the class, as such, is basically a set of drills that everyone goes through. But even though each drill has a stated focus, from shooting on the move to making your transitions more snappy, it has enough elements that there is always something to improve. Even if you manage to do it once exactly right, the challenge becomes to repeat that for the rest of your runs on the drill.

In between drills, on another bay, there will be a stage set up that you get to run a few times to try different strategies and implement things you've learned from previous runs (i.e. mistakes) on the stage.

Very little of the class is spent on a common firing line burning rounds with little feedback. For most of the class, each time you pull the trigger, it's under Ben's supervision and he will give you immediate feedback on that particular run. You'll do a few of these runs and then take a break to load your mags while others shoot, and then cycle over to the other bay where the stage is set up and shoot it then.

The format works really well and means there's never a shortage of something to be improving. If anything, it's an incredibly thorough inventory of your match shooting over the course of two days that the most important part is taking notes of things to practice for the rest of the season.

I found I got a lot more out of Ben's feedback in particular when I would ask followup questions to whatever recommendation he'd make. He would give a piece of feedback, and my first instinct was to nod thoughtfully and say "okay," but once I got in the habit of asking for clarification, I found he was glad to elaborate. He would just try to suffice with the least amount of commentary that would get the message across, as measured by whether or not you looked confused and asked questions.

In general though, I would say that you won't get better over the course of the weekend. But you will get a pretty good sense of the biggest deficiencies and how to work on them. You then have to put in the work to fix those issues if you want to get better.
 
I took one of his classes, and after he told me: "for someone who started out as poorly as you did, I'm surprised how far you've come".

So, expect some honest feedback throughout the whole corse with no punches pulled.

I was shooting faster and more accurately then when I came into the course, so it was money well spent even enduring several days of utter embarrassment at my lack of foundation.
 
@Ben B , @Jayne thanks, your reviews pretty well coincide with what I have found elsewhere.
Honest critique delivered bluntly should suit me just fine.
 
Honest critique delivered bluntly should suit me just fine.

Be prepared to shoot faster than you though possible.... all while hitting the targets. Several times he said something along the lines of "bullshit, I know you can go faster, just do it" and somehow I did.

I'll add this in... if you're not prepared to practice and practice and practice after the class, the skills will fade quickly. I went from aspiring rock star back to bozo level pretty quickly. My 1.2 second draw to first hit has dropped off to 1.8 seconds now. Gotta follow his dryfire routine if you want to keep the skills he'll teach.
 
So I guess I'll throw down a review. Be aware I am a very pessimistic person, I'm gonna attempt to reign that in. I'm gonna include a brief mention of the night before because it sucked and probably didn't help anything. This is long.

I got off at 2230 Friday, hit the road from W-S to Oxford because I didn't want to do it in the morning, this would prove probably unwise. I decided to forego a hotel room for Friday night since it was just gonna be a few hours and attempted sleeping in the truck at the Granville County rest area this was flat dumb. Place was just about empty but the world is full of stupid people, myself included this day, and they were drawn to me, one group decided to park beside my truck to argue and another a little later shout at every passerby for jumper cables, I think I managed an hour of sleep, and was in a great mood. Enough of that.

Get to the range about 0800 for an 0830 start, Ben and Darren are setting up the stage and the drill bays along with a couple other folks that got there early, naturally pitch in, naturally miss a rebar post and smack my left hand with a 4lb maul.

Ben gives a run-down on the format, shoot drills here with me, run each other thru the stage when you're not doing that. Every drill was preceded by a discussion of the point, appropriate sight picture(s), a demo by Ben, a question period, and then usually several minutes running it dry, before going live.

Day one, first thing, everyone runs the sample stage with Ben running the timer, he doesn't really say much, then shows us how he'd do it smashing the best of class by at least 10 seconds then takes some questions. He asks me while we're walking to the drill bay, "you're C class right?" I dunno if he's done homework on the students or just guessed from what he saw.

In the drill bay we all get on line for some marksmanship stuff, starting with groups at 20? yards no time limit 10 rounds, there's a lot of other than alphas and not groups, so we move up, he addresses some individual issues, zeros some people's guns, and we work our way back. Then do some rapid fire drills followed by controlled pairs starting close and working back for each, Ben walking the line and pointing out issues, when we got back around 20yds shooting fast he diagnosed I'm having some minor issues from too much strong hand grip, somewhere in there he asked, "WTF are you doing in C class?" my response was something like, my transitions and movement are awful and my reloads require a calendar to time.

Once he gets everyone to the point of mostly alphas and close charlies and seeing/feeling when a shot goes wrong we split the class and work on some distance change up/transition drills. My first run on it, Ben asks how'd that feel, I reply, "Not great, I spent too long on the partial" Lesson one, and probably the most important for me to embrace: Dude, your feelings are completely irrelevant. He again asks WTF am I doing in C class, and points out that was a 10HF run, hmm. He also pointed out going hard-easy I need to be more aggressive on the easy.

We finished up the day's drills with some one handed stuff, my trigger press was awful and Ben really hates to see a gun tilted at all.

Everyone gathered on the sample stage and ran it again under Ben's watch, I think everyone showed improvement, I knocked about 6 seconds off, and it was pointed out I had a tendency to overshoot my positions slightly and should come in wider so I could lean a little instead of having to shuffle if that happens, and also when that happens and a target becomes obscured, act just like it's hard cover (you know cause it is) and don't be afraid to eat some Charlies don't try for some heroic shit.

Day two, change up the sample stage without injury, yay. Run it cold, Ben ROs. Today there's 4/5 major variations in student stage plans, FYI mine was retarded, never plan to go to 11 in production at least not with long shots on steel. Only one plan really seemed to bother Ben and he discussed why, but the proponents where entrenched in it so he shot it their way after showing us his plan and while it was a little slower he did say something like even a stupid plan you can execute well is better than one you can't.

Drills for the day, long and short movement both directions, SOTM perpendicular both ways, position entry, and a little classifier skill type drill.

Some weirdness here, my R-L entry I end up with a jacked stance, Ben seriously said he'd seen some dumb shit in his time, but never anything like that and I needed to fix it, now. He's also very big on a 50/50 weight distribution, I'm not doing that consistently, I'm a little late getting my weak hand back on the gun, and way late braking/slowing when coming in, and that all translates into not near stable enough to be shooting as soon as the gun/sights are lined up, the slight positive he did say overrunning is a good sign as it shows I'm getting to speed and it should be easy to address.

Shooting on the move, I need to work on moving faster.

We ended the day with another run on the stage, I beat my cold time by about 8 seconds by incorporating some of what we worked on, and had the fastest time among the students by several seconds, we didn't score it, but I at least didn't have any penalties. Ben said he still didn't understand why I was in C class.

We got a copy of dry fire reloaded and he discussed which drills he thought would give the most gains and how to use them, he stuck around to chat, I bailed.

Thoughts, it's fundamentals and that is what we did. I'm guessing it is tailored somewhat to who shows up that day. I learned some stuff for sure about my shooting and places to focus, I like Ben's instruction style, I probably should've asked more questions, he will answer them. I think I may have gotten a lot more out of the class a year ago, I am considering the Skills and Drills class if he comes back by next year.

Logistics/tips, make sure your gun runs, make sure it's zeroed, make sure any screws are loctited and/or have spares. I'm a mechanic, I think I my hands were in a minority that weren't bleeding somewhere day two, by the end of the day my right palm was sore and below my thumb on my left hand looked and felt like it'd been hit with a belt sander. Stretch, I pulled my right quad before lunch day two, that sucks on movement day. If you don't handle profanity this might not be the class for you. Get a good night's sleep, the Econo Lodge in Creedmoor won't suit a clean freak or wow you with amenities, but it's cheap and 15/20 minutes from the range.
 
@Beef15
Thanks for taking the time to share your experience. I'm just a beginner but I'm looking around and reading anything I can to try and learn what I need to do to get better, and just picked up a couple more nuggets.
I just picked up DFR as well.
 
Good take and thanks for sharing! Blood and cussin,,, that sounds like a class to take. And you learn some shootin skills!

R
 
It looks like he is in PA(twice) the week I am away....go figure. Ill catch one these next go round.

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