The Cryptocurrency Thread

JimB said:
So do you think the money is in buying into crypto or in setting up mining for every new currency that is announced? Too late for that because you’ll never get ahead of the industrial miners?
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Too late for BTC and maybe some of the other largest cryptos. You could certainly do so for the smaller cryptos. But the equipment isn't cheap (see article for how GPUs are selling for OVER MSRP b/c of mining demand: https://hothardware.com/news/nvidia-tells-retailers-to-sell-to-gamers-not-cryptominers) and to be effective, you'll need to consume a fair bit of juice. And if you pick one of the 1300 cryptos that are, IMHO, doomed to worthlessness, it will all be for naught. If you can identify a small crypto that will gain wide adoption, rather than spend all this money on equipment and electricity, why not just put that money directly into the cryptocurrency?
 
drypowder said:
Too late for BTC and maybe some of the other largest cryptos. You could certainly do so for the smaller cryptos. But the equipment isn't cheap (see article for how GPUs are selling for OVER MSRP b/c of mining demand: https://hothardware.com/news/nvidia-tells-retailers-to-sell-to-gamers-not-cryptominers) and to be effective, you'll need to consume a fair bit of juice. And if you pick one of the 1300 cryptos that are, IMHO, doomed to worthlessness, it will all be for naught. If you can identify a small crypto that will gain wide adoption, rather than spend all this money on equipment and electricity, why not just put that money directly into the cryptocurrency?
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Well it’s gambling either way. If many folks believe that the idea is good but that it’s too early to pick winners and losers, maybe an index fund of crypto currencies?
 
JimB said:
Well it’s gambling either way. If many folks believe that the idea is good but that it’s too early to pick winners and losers, maybe an index fund of crypto currencies?
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That's a good idea, but the SEC isn't approving any ETFs on cryptos just yet. And the closest to it is the OTC-traded GBTC (which only owns Bitcoin), which last I checked, trades at a 65-75% premium (!!!) to the underlying Bitcoin.

To replicate a portfolio of most of the 1300 cryptos yourself would consume a huge amount of transaction fees.
 
drypowder said:
That's a good idea, but the SEC isn't approving any ETFs on cryptos just yet. And the closest to it is the OTC-traded GBTC (which only owns Bitcoin), which last I checked, trades at a 65-75% premium (!!!) to the underlying Bitcoin.

To replicate a portfolio of most of the 1300 cryptos yourself would consume a huge amount of transaction fees.
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Thanks for the info, I hate premiums in metals and transaction fees in currencies.
 
How much of these crypto coins do any of you own?
 
HMP said:
How much of these crypto coins do any of you own?
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None. I like the concept, but the valuation is way out of proportion with the utility. Of course the same was true of Amazon at one time.
 
Bitcoin is the greatest scam in history:
https://www.recode.net/2018/4/24/17...yptocurrency-mining-pump-dump-fraud-ico-value

I’m tired of saying, “Be careful, it’s speculative.” Then, “Be careful, it’s gambling.” Then, “Be careful, it’s a bubble.” Okay, I’ll say it: Bitcoin is a scam.

In my opinion, it’s a colossal pump-and-dump scheme, the likes of which the world has never seen. In a pump-and-dump game, promoters “pump” up the price of a security creating a speculative frenzy, then “dump” some of their holdings at artificially high prices. And some cryptocurrencies are pure frauds. Ernst & Young estimates that 10 percent of the money raised for initial coin offerings has been stolen.

The losers are ill-informed buyers caught up in the spiral of greed. The result is a massive transfer of wealth from ordinary families to internet promoters. And “massive” is a massive understatement — 1,500 different cryptocurrencies now register over $300 billion of “value.”

It helps to understand that a bitcoin has no value at all.
 
"Founding CEO of PayPal" sounds like he has an axe to grind. I don't think someone as wedded as he is to the "value" of the USD should be much counted on for objective advice.
 
OverMountainMan said:
"Founding CEO of PayPal" sounds like he has an axe to grind. I don't think someone as wedded as he is to the "value" of the USD should be much counted on for objective advice.
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That's a valid criticism of his potential bias, but it's not a criticism of his arguments.

I thought he made some good arguments, and there's more that I would add, e.g., cryptos will be worthless in a SHTF situation. Of course dollars would also be worthless in a serious SHTF situation, but dollars would have value if the situation is believed to be temporary. Also, the proof-of-work feature/protection of decentralized currency is an enormous expense - he provides an example, and I've provided estimates of crypto mining power consumption earlier in the thread. This creates all kinds of skewed incentives in addition to the inherent inefficiency.

I'd be interested in your counters to his arguments.
 
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drypowder said:
I'd be interested in your counters to his arguments.
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I think his arguments spring almost entirely from his fear-mongering hyperbole, It's a scam!, but I'll kick it around a bit.

First, to your point that it's worthless in SHTF, I get that. And that's a reason I've put some faith in physical metals. But, it's not any more "worthless" post SHTF than pre-SHTF...it's just harder to access (theoretically, because if the S hits the F, it hits the internet also) and/or exchange for other value. But, also theoretically, I can carry a lot more crypto "wealth" on a thumb drive in my pocket than I can 1oz gold coins.

But to his main points, he says it's useless as a means of payment and they're "accepted almost nowhere", which is just untrue. Unless they've changed policy very recently, both Apmex and JM Bullion will send you any of their products for your bitcoin, and they'll DISCOUNT their product compared to their credit card purchase rate. Gold, silver, platinum...

As a "store of value", yes there's volatility. But, it's value on the market has continually nudged upward. Unlike our "stable" USD currency which has trended consistently downward. And "cryptocurrency trading exchanges" are NOT storehouses as he'd have you believe. Part of crypto's value, and specifically its preferred value, is that there isn't a central authority controlling it.

His "thing itself" point only has merit because there IS such a thing as a paper (cloth) dollar. But, there are maneuverings afoot to phase cash out of existence, also. Same with those others he cited as "better stores of value and things in themselves": pounds, euros, yen, renminbi. I believe I read somewhere that actual physical cash is a drop in the ocean of ones and zeros otherwise stored in bank accounts.

I try to shy away from the ad hominem dismissal of someone's thoughts, and give them the benefit of the doubt, generally. This guy has an agenda to keep his fiat scheme propped up, so his rhetoric should be met with a healthy dose of skepticism. But, I think he's just a BS artist con man. Actually, reading what corporate shills like him have to say about crypto makes me want some even more. Got any to sell?
 
OverMountainMan said:
This guy has an agenda to keep his fiat scheme propped up, so his rhetoric should be met with a healthy dose of skepticism. But, I think he's just a BS artist con man. Actually, reading what corporate shills like him have to say about crypto makes me want some even more. Got any to sell?
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Are you referring to PayPal being a con man and scheme etc?

I mean, it's at least based on a real currency with value.

OMM - do you currently own any Cryto money?
 
HMP said:
Are you referring to PayPal being a con man and scheme etc?
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No, not exactly. The fiat dollar is a scheme, at least in its current incarnation. He's more of a con man after the fact, I think.
HMP said:
I mean, it's at least based on a real currency with value.
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Real perhaps, but with diminished and diminishing value.
HMP said:
OMM - do you currently own any Cryto money?
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Full disclosure time? Well, yes...sorta. Not enough to amount to anything, but I "lost" access to them.
 
How do you view the PayPal guy as a conman?
 
AFAIK, if you mine it it is rather hard to link it to you. If you buy it, then there is a record.

bitcoin is on its face value nothing but speculative market. Those who will get rich on it know when to bail out.

With that said, there is value to blockchains outside cryptocurrency
 
The surveillance state wants to do away with cash. Privacy is a right and there is demand for a means of private commerce. Buying online has serious privacy flaws with regards to card based transactions. Crypto currencies fill this niche. Crypto currencies have as much value as dollars: the vale people believe them to have.

Why should the common medium of exchange have to be ordained and blessed by a nation state?
 
OverMountainMan said:
Well, I read the linked article, so I guess the answer to that question is with my eyes open. A little squinty, perhaps.
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Thanks for the chuckle.
Let me rephrase then: Why do you consider him a conman?
 
HMP said:
Thanks for the chuckle.
Let me rephrase then: Why do you consider him a conman?
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If you read the article, and how I responded upthread, I think it should be fairly clear enough: I think he's being dishonest, and I think he has a financial interest to do so.
 
Yup, time to shift to Bolivars.
 
While it would have been very nice to have cashed in on this when it was skyrocketing, this is why I dont mess with this fake currency stuff,

Almost a year ago exactly it was peaking at almost 20k, not it's under 4.
Looking at the graph for the past five years it was pretty much steady, gradually rising over the months. And then, somehow, a year ago, things went wild and it took off. Then, almost just as fast, it started to crash back down.

Sure, if you'd bought in at a few bucks it'd be awesome still, but these things based on, well, NOTHING cant sustain
 
HMP said:
Looking at the graph for the past five years it was pretty much steady, gradually rising over the months. And then, somehow, a year ago, things went wild and it took off.
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Not at all. It only appears that way on an arithmetic chart. Look at it on a logarithmic chart and you will see very wild swings even before the most recent one.
 
Pardon my dumb brain, what is the difference in the charts?
Im looking at it from a value perspective, it's supposed to be worth X then let's look at that value/price
 
Log or linear scale it's been a really tough year for BC.
upload_2018-11-25_7-44-45.png
 
HMP said:
Pardon my dumb brain, what is the difference in the charts?
Im looking at it from a value perspective, it's supposed to be worth X then let's look at that value/price
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Log scale correctly visually represents % changes. Linear scale masks the earlier swings which were just as wild as the most recent.
 
And in new news, water is wet. Anyone not already know this?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...tocurrency-reviews-are-for-sale-idUSKCN1NW17S

NEW YORK (Reuters) - When cryptocurrency issuers want positive coverage for their virtual coins, they buy it.
Self-proclaimed social media personalities charge thousands of dollars for video reviews. Research houses accept payments in the cryptocurrencies they are analyzing. Rating “experts” will grade anything positively, for a price.

All this is common, according to more than two dozen people in the cryptocurrency market and documents reviewed by Reuters.
 
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