The Dead in Christ

[DrScaryGuy]

There is not a soul in hell that is there for being a harlot, homosexual, whoremonger, smoker, winebibber or fan of Nine Inch Nails.

since this is turning into a theology thread, let me take the time to discuss a pet peeve...
when you're dead, you're dead. kicked the bucket. pushing daisies. but you have not yet joined the choir invisible.
The Bible mentions in a couple of places that the dead in Christ will rise once Jesus comes again to take them away. that is to say that they are just dead until then. Sleeping, like Lazarus was.
I'll make a concession that I'm not sure that the Bible mentions that the dead in Satan get a similar period of waiting/limbo. Maybe the Devil gets his souls right away?

People who ignore this little bit immediately lose all intellectual credit with me and I generally won't listen to anything they say on the Bible.

Yeah…I probably shoulda held off on posting that here, since it is a discussion better suited for The Chapel.

As for your point, I do respectfully disagree and if you’d like to discuss it, we can do so over in The Chapel.👍

2 Cor 5:8

doesn't say that as soon as you die, you are present. just that he's willing to trade one for the other
I'm open to having my mind changed though. I just need to see something rather clear about it. Again, Jesus said Lazarus was sleeping, and raised him 4 days after death. So to me, you're doing the long sleep until somebody comes to wake you up.

 

[DrScaryGuy]

I grew up in a church that taught soul sleep until Christ’s return. I can see scriptural support for both positions. With our not knowing how space/time limits or doesn’t limit those who die in Christ, I’m even open to both being true at the same time. In the end, this is one of those doctrines I file in the “We’ll see when we get there” category and I don’t worry about it. Nor do I let people’s positions on it affect how I think about other things they teach.

Just 2 cents in a Tuesday morning.

 

[DrScaryGuy]

@cubrock I've mentioned in the past that I grew up in church, and I left when our preacher went at me about drinking and how everybody who drinks goes to hell, completely ignoring my arguments of A) water to wine, B) "do not get drunk with wine", and C) it's a big no-no to "add" to the Bible.

so yes, i'm fairly critical of people's views when I can show for a fact that the bible says the opposite, unless they can really show me how i got things wrong. whether it be randos from the internet or just an article published 15 years ago in the billy graham magazine

 

[cubrock]

@cubrock I've mentioned in the past that I grew up in church, and I left when our preacher went at me about drinking and how everybody who drinks goes to hell, completely ignoring my arguments of A) water to wine, B) "do not get drunk with wine", and C) it's a big no-no to "add" to the Bible.

so yes, i'm fairly critical of people's views when I can show for a fact that the bible says the opposite, unless they can really show me how i got things wrong. whether it be randos from the internet or just an article published 15 years ago in the billy graham magazine

I get where you are coming from. I grew up in the "one true church" that was going to be the 144,000 in the place of safety of Revelation. Even though that church's doctrines on a lot of stuff turned out to be demonstrably wrong, I still learned a lot of good doctrine from the experience. There is a difference between a "you are going to hell for drinking" preacher and one who believes drinking is a sin, but doesn't make it the unpardonable sin. You can find some places of agreement with and may be able to learn from the latter one. The former one is best ignored.

I am not a Calvinist, but there are Reformed theology teachers from whom I have learned a lot. Alistair Begg is one of them. Also Voddie Bauchom. The good fruit both of them have borne outweighs our doctrinal disagreement on predestination.

We should all be like the Bereans and search the scriptures daily ourselves to be convicted of the truth. Makes it much easier to spot the lies when we hear them.

 

[B00ger]

As mentioned, you can file this under “we will know when we get there” and would never consider one’s views on what happens immediately after death as a determining factor in whether I believed them a Christian or not.

In my opinion 2 Cor is pretty straight forward. If you aren’t in the body you are with the Lord. And when Jesus is speaking to the thief on the cross he says “today you will be with me in paradise.” He doesn’t say “today you will go to sleep, and upon my eventual return I will awaken you to join me in paradise.”

I am open to the idea that prior to Jesus returning there could have been a “sleeping” phase, or as the Jews of the time called “Abrahams bosom”. But upon Jesus defeating death through his resurrection this “sleeping” was ended because death held no power over his children any longer. Lazarus may have been “sleeping” because the resurrection had not yet taken place.

All in all, while I think it’s an interesting subject, I would never see it as a reason to cut off someone from fellowship or respect of their views because we had different opinions on the matter.

In my life as a Christian, and more specifically the past years as a pastor/minister, a common theme is preachers like you mentioned swinging the Bible like a baseball bat at people they disagree with. I can tell you what I feel God has revealed to me through his word, but I cannot force you to believe it. That’s not my job. In fact, baseballbible weilding preachers is one of the reasons that I wasn’t saved until my late 20’s. I hated being told what to do. It wasn’t until it was presented as “here’s the source, and the information, you go figure it out and I’ll be here to answer questions” that I began to see the light.

As far as the drinking stuff: our church is relatively hard line against it. But I do feel there is a differentiation between personal convictions and “sin”. I don’t feel drinking is a sin, per se, but I do believe loving alcohol more than God is.

But I also feel that each true Christian will search themselves and through prayer and fellowship with the Father and the Holy Ghost they will be convicted of things they should, and should not do. If they are convicted not to drink, and then spend time rationalizing why drinking is ok, then I believe that is wrong. But if they truly feel that it has no bearing on their relationship with the father; then that’s their relationship not mine.

 

[DrScaryGuy]

so what you guys are telling me is to quit being a jerk...
that's asking kind of a lot.

 

[B00ger]

so what you guys are telling me is to quit being a jerk...
that's asking kind of a lot.

Well…I mean…with Christ all things are possible…

 

[Dale Gribble]

@DrScaryGuy,

Guess I’l start off with this post from the other thread:

“There is not a soul in hell that is there for being a harlot, homosexual, whoremonger, smoker, winebibber or fan of Nine Inch Nails.”

Although this isn’t specifically related to the “dead in Christ” argument, I wanted to clarify what I posted here in this thread. It is not what a person “does” in life that determines where they will spend eternity, rather, it’s what they fail to do. I, too, have heard ministers state that folks who do “X” are destined for hell…truth is, there is only one thing that will punch your ticket to that awful place; rejection of Christ as your Savior and his sacrifice for your sin debt that He and only He could pay…that’s it.


The “dead in Christ” argument:

I believe your soul is who you are. Your body is just a shell…a house, if you will. While I do believe, in death, the body sleeps, I do not believe the soul ever does. It is in one of three places: earth, Heaven or Hell.

@B00ger made reference to it in the other thread, but I think it is worth a repost. In the Apostle Paul’s second letter to the church at Corinth, he writes,

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (5:8)

Here, I personally believe Paul lays out two and only two possibilities: 1) You are either alive on the earth, with your body and soul together or 2) Your body and soul have been separated by death. If this is the case, then your soul is in the presence of the Lord.

In Luke 16, Christ said,

19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.


In verse 22, both Lazarus and the rich man die. In verse 23, it reads, “And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments…” In verse 24, he begs Abraham to send Lazarus to him, to dip his finger in water and cool his tongue, “for I am tormented in this flame”.

Not only do I believe the soul never sleeps, but I believe it is a conscious being and completely aware of everything.

As to ressurection of the dead, I believe it is worth noting there are two ressurections (John 5:28-29)

 

[GymB]

so what you guys are telling me is to quit being a jerk...
that's asking kind of a lot.

I would say to spend your energy on the things that you believe matter. I don’t see how this possible distinction about what we think happens after physical death could affect me, so I don’t worry about it. If you think it’s critical to my salvation, then for my sake, preach it! OTOH, if you’re just looking to argue about interpretations of scripture, you’ve got lots of company in organized religions.

 

[DrScaryGuy]

I would say to spend your energy on the things that you believe matter. I don’t see how this possible distinction about what we think happens after physical death could affect me, so I don’t worry about it. If you think it’s critical to my salvation, then for my sake, preach it! OTOH, if you’re just looking to argue about interpretations of scripture, you’ve got lots of company in organized religions.

I don't need to just argue with people. I get enough of that at work. and it's why i haven't gone to church in 20 years outside of weddings, funerals, and a couple of holidays to make my mom happy. Well, I did go once on my own when i was visiting my sister and her husband since they run a church... but that's about it.

 

[Tailhunter]

Instantaneously, in the presence of the Lord. 😁
It was all settled at the cross.

There is only one prerequisite. The acceptance of Jesus before your departure.

 

[GymB]

I don't need to just argue with people. I get enough of that at work. and it's why i haven't gone to church in 20 years outside of weddings, funerals, and a couple of holidays to make my mom happy. Well, I did go once on my own when i was visiting my sister and her husband since they run a church... but that's about it.

I find it very difficult to learn in church, I want to engage in a conversation. It’s a failure on my part, sometimes you have to be forced to listen rather than to be constantly preparing to respond.

 

[DrScaryGuy]

Instantaneously, in the presence of the Lord. 😁
It was all settled at the cross.

There is only one prerequisite. The acceptance of Jesus before your departure.

(citation needed)

In Luke 16, Christ said,

The lazarus and rich man thing is interesting. but was it a parable that likely never actually happened? If so, was it meant to be spoken outside of time? I agree with you guys that it's not something we can understand - especially if we're dead, until we're not dead anymore.

 

[BigWaylon]

Guess I’l start off with this post from the other thread:

“There is not a soul in hell that is there for being a harlot, homosexual, whoremonger, smoker, winebibber or fan of Nine Inch Nails.”

Although this isn’t specifically related to the “dead in Christ” argument, I wanted to clarify what I posted here in this thread. It is not what a person “does” in life that determines where they will spend eternity, rather, it’s what they fail to do. I, too, have heard ministers state that folks who do “X” are destined for hell…truth is, there is only one thing that will punch your ticket to that awful place; rejection of Christ as your Savior and his sacrifice for your sin debt that He and only He could pay…that’s it.

Glad you clarified…cause I wanted to reply with:

“sure there are…thousands upon thousands of them…just like there will be some in there for lying, cheating, and innumerable other sins” 😁

 

[Tailhunter]

“We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.”

King James Version (KJV)

Absent from the body = present with the Lord.

 

[cubrock]

I find it very difficult to learn in church, I want to engage in a conversation. It’s a failure on my part, sometimes you have to be forced to listen rather than to be constantly preparing to respond.

I don't think it is a failure on your part. The early church likely was much more Q & A based rather than lecture based, simply due to how many Jews made up the early church. Q&A/conversation is much more in line with rabbinical teaching method. Lecturing comes more out of the Greco-Roman teaching style (one of them, anyway).

Being open to learning both ways is helpful, but there is nothing wrong with preferring one or the other. A lot of that has to do simply with how each of our mind's works.

 

[Starkherz199]

Conjecture.
I want to engage in Conjecture. Just putting that out up front.

But first, some foundation.
God reveals his attributes to us in scripture. In multiple passages, we learn that God is omnipotent and infinite. God doesn't have a beginning or an end.

Furthermore, God isn't limited by time.
"2Pe 3:8 KJV But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."
God created time.

Scripture also declares that God is a spirit [John4:24].


Back to conjecture.

If to be absent from the body [dead] is to be present with the Lord;
And the Lord is a Spirit;
And in His spiritual existence, He does not solely exist in time;
Then, Perhaps this spirit realm that God dwells in does not exist in the constraints of time;
therefore the spirit of the dead in Christ are not experiencing time as the natural world does.

So, between the time a Christian dies, and the 2nd advent of Christ [when one meets Christ in the air, and receives a new uncorrupted body], the dead Christian is with God, but does not perceive the goings on in the physical world. If that be true, they cannot be looking down on us.

That was my attempt at conjecture.



Also, scripture reveals that God is all knowing/omniscient.
So, has it ever occurred to you that nothing has ever occurred to God.

 

[Tailhunter]

In the grand scheme of things as long as we are with him timing is irrelevant.
That being said, I’m sticking with the scripture above.

I was raised in a presbyterian church. We had a joke with our relatives after we moved on. “We have scriptural proof that the presbyterian church is going to be the first into heaven” and than quote the scripture about the dead in christ rising first. 😜

 

[MacEntyre]

We should all be like the Bereans and search the scriptures daily ourselves to be convicted of the truth. Makes it much easier to spot the lies when we hear them.

As an Anglican Benedictine, I am an Oblate. (I bet few of you know what that is... jus' sayin'!) In my experience, Benedictines are much like Bereans.

 

[GymB]

As an Anglican Benedictine, I am an Oblate. (I bet few of you know what that is... jus' sayin'!) In my experience, Benedictines are much like Bereans.

Do the Bereans make a liqueur too?

 

[MacEntyre]

Do the Bereans make a liqueur too?

Only the French Bereans...

 

[DrScaryGuy]

So, between the time a Christian dies, and the 2nd advent of Christ [when one meets Christ in the air, and receives a new uncorrupted body], the dead Christian is with God, but does not perceive the goings on in the physical world. If that be true, they cannot be looking down on us.

Wanna hear about what I get VERY confused about with Catholocism?
granted, i have not gone through their training, so i don't know their arguments or justifications at all...

 

[DrScaryGuy]

“We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.”

King James Version (KJV)

Absent from the body = present with the Lord.

I dunno, i take that as a "I don't mind dying because I know what comes after" statement more than a "this is proof that as soon as we die we are in Heaven" statement.

 

[Dale Gribble]

Just wanna commend everyone who has posted in this thread, no matter what your beliefs may be…

Two topics whose discussion can quickly descend into a chaotic free-for-all are 1) politics and 2) matters of religion/faith. I have seen discussions on just simple doctrinal differences, both in person and online, that would have led the casual observer to question the Christianity of all parties involved.

Everyone in this thread has remained civil in their discussion and, considering the subject, I think that speaks volumes for CFF as a whole. 👍

 

[MacEntyre]

Not knowing all the answers is part of having faith...

The Abbot once explained to me that folks are always saying they want to listen to God and find out what is their calling. Abbot said, no need to do that, and besides, you cannot know the will of God. So, instead, just make yourself available... He will decide how to make use of you. When he does, it still might not be clear to you what is your purpose, but after a while and several "coincidences" later, you may begin to have a clue. [There are no coincidences.]