The "Garand was designed around M2 ball" myth exposed

Discussion in 'Military Surplus - Curios & Relics' started by cubrock, Nov 13, 2018.

  1. cubrock

    cubrock Swell guy Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    By our very own @Jeremy2171 . Great work, brother!

     
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  2. 11B CIB

    11B CIB IG: HandloadsAndHoldovers Staff Member Charter Member

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    I’m about to jump into the M1 game I think. This month’s handloader magazine was all about loading for the Garand and they said if you’re not planning on loading to 1940s pressure that replacing the gas port plug can be swapped out.

    It has an exceptionally accurate Varget load for 150gr bullets (48gr, 2700fps) that looked good.

    I know less than nothing about the Garand so it’s all new to me
     
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  3. Tim

    Tim I am....an Enchanter. Staff Member Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    I havent shot mine in a couple years. Ill need to remedy that here soon.
     
  4. dalek

    dalek Member Supporting Member

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    I always thought that

    1. Garand was not even designed to use the 30-06 to begin with. Like the FAL it was redesigned.
    2. M1 ball worked fine with it but it was reaching out farther than the ranges they had, so M2 was created to address that.
    3. IMR 4895 (?) was the original powder in M2.
    4. The military competition 30-06 uses 168 or 175gr bullets so it is not M2. But no changes were required in the Garand to handle that, and whatever powder they used.
    5. Main issue with the Garand is powder speed, which is the same issue as in other gas-operated rifles (with misadjusted gas systems for those that can be adjusted). You can blow up a Hakim with wrong ammo and it does not even have a piston to begin with.
     
  5. 11B CIB

    11B CIB IG: HandloadsAndHoldovers Staff Member Charter Member

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    ^^ I had some M72 173gr National Match ammo from 1968 that I gave to a friend...new in box. 2640fps using 48gr of IMR4895

    It’s what they were shooting at Camp Perry at the time I believe


    It needs noting that H4895 and IMR 4895 are not identical
     
  6. Beef15

    Beef15 B or somesuch Charter Member

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    I got as far as prepping a few peices of brass for mine and buying a pound of powder. Pretty sorry.
     
  7. Jeremy2171

    Jeremy2171 Semper Gumby

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    Unfortunately most people "writing" about it repeat oft quoted myths....i.e. "1940's pressure.....whatever that is..."

    YES you CAN make some abominable handload that isn't safe for it...probably not safe for any other semi as well...


    My test was to see if commercial ammo was the problem it has been claimed to be for decades......I think I've got that one debunked.


    Thanks again @cubrock for the assist....the M1 ball really helped.... I also plan on more videos range testing it and the 1940 Match ammo as well.
     
  8. 11B CIB

    11B CIB IG: HandloadsAndHoldovers Staff Member Charter Member

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    It’s likely referring to safe chamber pressures or port pressures. It wasn’t clear

    I wasn’t calling anything you were doing into question, just commenting about what was put in the most recent handloader magazine about loading for the M1.
     
  9. Jeremy2171

    Jeremy2171 Semper Gumby

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    Right..no offense taken.. :)

    I'm just saying in some of the reading leading up to this test I conducted there is mention online of different chamber pressure for military 30cal and SAAMI commercial specs. Random vague claims to "port pressure" without explaining it or how it's important or maybe not that important.... "Most" of what I see online is repeated stories that I've heard in one form or another for 30 some years.

    I finally decided to test it after seeing a similar video with a quick test that said "a ha!" commercial ammo is bad...don't shoot it.. I became skeptical at the such cut and dry answer...so I did my test...

    As soon as find more ammo of the years I'm missing I'll test those as well..
     
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  10. cubrock

    cubrock Swell guy Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    The big pressure bugaboo that people have written and talked about ad nauseum with respect to the Garand has to do with gas port pressure being too high, resulting in the op rod being cycled with too much force, thereby bending or breaking the op rod.

    There is a pretty good write-up about it here:

    http://www.garandgear.com/m1-garand-ammunition

    But, you have to have your filter on, given they are trying to sell you their gas cylinder plug.

    Pay particular attention to the end of the article, where they talk about the three factors that can result in op rod damage - port pressure, binding, and poor lubrication. I'm willing to bet that most op rod damage that has occurred while someone used commercial ammo was due to binding and/or poor lubrication (especially poor lubrication). The commercial ammo then got blamed for the damage, when it was really poor maintenance of the weapon.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2018
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  11. nbkky71

    nbkky71 Active Member

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    Correct. The M1 rifle was initially developed using the .276 Pederson cartridge but the design was later changed to .30-06. Also note that in the original .276 caliber, the en-bloc held 10 rounds.
     
  12. Jeremy2171

    Jeremy2171 Semper Gumby

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    Lol I got a comment that said basically..." I don't have to watch the video to know you're wrong...."

    Dafuq...
     
  13. rufrdr

    rufrdr Active Member

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    [​IMG]

    It was still a work in progress at that point.

    [​IMG]

    the competition to the Garand rifle. The Pedersen needed wax coated cartridge cases to function properly which contributed to its failure to be adopted.
     
  14. pinkbunny

    pinkbunny Senior Member Charter Life Member

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    Another similar video:

     
  15. Jeremy2171

    Jeremy2171 Semper Gumby

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    Yeah that's the video with lots of incorrect info... which is what made me do my video.
     
  16. pinkbunny

    pinkbunny Senior Member Charter Life Member

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    Ok, I will probably be told, "you idiot." I'm not a gunsmith, not an expert, I don't even reload. But here's what I gleaned from this:

    1.) The maximum op rod speeds, according to Springfield Armory, is 26fps(correct me if wrong, didn't you mention that in the video?).
    2.) Almost all of the commercial loads went over that limit
    3.) Only one batch of surplus went over, most went substantially below
    4.) Not in the video, but as I understand it, op rods are fragile, many are 80+ years old and were never changed out, and metallurgy was not the best in those days.

    You posted some interesting material, but where does this video show that shooting commerical ammo is a good idea in a Garand? I mean, if anything, I would think this video proves it is not necessarily a good idea. The majority of the commercial ammo exceeds the maximum tolerances of the gun, the majority of surplus is well below maximum tolerances, and I don't think people are expecting guns to blow up, but instead expect op rods to wear out prematurely and break.

    Again, I'm the opposite of an expert, so please correct me if I'm wrong.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2018
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  17. rufrdr

    rufrdr Active Member

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    Op rods don't break from wrong pressure curve ammo but they definitely will bend. I have seen more than one M1 rifle that had functioning issues that was resulting from a bent op rod.

    M1 safe ammunition exists outside of surplus. Buy it and keep shooting.
     
  18. Charlie

    Charlie Member

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    I trashed an op rod on my first Garand with a handload using IMR 4350 powder. It was not a max load and did not have velocity higher than most factory loads. I had shot lots of rounds of the same velocity using IMR 4064 with no problems at all. I am wary of slow burning powder in a gas autoloader. I do not know what powder commercial rounds use and do not feel comfortable using them in any of my Garands unless they specify that they are designed to be shot in Garands.
     
  19. rufrdr

    rufrdr Active Member

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    I've only used 4895 and 748 in my decades of reloading for the M1 and never had an issue. An upside is how easy the powder meters through my 40 year old RCBS powder thrower.
     
  20. Jeremy2171

    Jeremy2171 Semper Gumby

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    First off I'd like to thank you for asking these questions...that means you actually watched the video AND you looked at the data...kudos..
    second you are the ONLY person who has done this in the week its been up (all over other forums as well)..I either get people that agree with the video or those who disagree with it without even watching it..

    1. That is correct...I do not have the reason why/how they came to that conclusion...or was it a test of a certain ammunition... I'm trying to get the original document to see if there is any more info in it.
    2. Also true...however we don't know if it was 26.0fps or 26.6fps or what according to SA. 26.0 to 27.0fps is an increase of 3.8% If we assume that all 26.x numbers are "safe" then the 4 commercial loads over that can be as well since it's a 3% increase.
    3. Again also true...however those that were on the "high" are also considered garand safe...so we must take those numbers at face value. Otherwise CMP would be in trouble for selling "hot" HXP by the millions for 15 years....
    4. Oprods aren't as fragile in real life as they are portrayed on the net...the 1942 oprods are still going on strong as well as the late 60's rods.. we even have oprod rebuild services if needed. The "main" thing that damages oprods is lack of / improper lubrication... i.e. "grease". If you run your garand "dry" with oil only etc...then you have a problem. I will be doing another video shortly to address THIS issue. But lets just say that a properly greased and in spec garand shouldn't have any trouble using ammo off the shelf...the biggest issue is owners who don't take the time to inspect it (easy to do) and then properly lube it (also easy to do).. Oprods get "bent" in the handle area....where it cams on the bolt lug down towards the tube... the damage happens when the gun is "grease free" and then you start shoving on it (shooting).. the rod is trying to unlock and retract the bolt but since everything is "dry" friction is increased substantially.... the friction is what causes the handle to get "tweaked" and not track properly. greased....the friction is MUCH lower and no damage occurs.

    Jim Thompson who wrote the shooters guide to the Garand... (his words via email with me:)
    "Best to read it in the book. I had a lot of BROWNING 220-grain round nose, and was attempting to test the old malarkey about the M1 having big "issues" with heavy bullets. I'd somehow acquired a rather ugly, "remilitarized" (cut up and welded back together) operating rod, pitted and badly finished, and I figured i'd see how many rounds it would take to bend it. Heavily greased (I grease my rifles very heavily), all I was doing was hitting the 200-yard small gong at Angeles ( LA COUNTY ) range and beating hell out of my shoulder. I then stripped the rifle, used solvent to remove the lubricants, fired the last few rounds and the rod bent so badly it took major effort to get it off the rifle/out of the stock.

    I believe the original stock of ammo, purchased at a now-defunct store in LA on closeout, was 700 rounds. I reached 690 or 691, utterly worn out, when I de-greased the rifle. With no grease the rod had bent and showed VISIBLE cracks, oddly not in the reweld area. I gave the remaining rounds to a spectator firing a light hunting rifle. I think I had two left. They must've beaten his shoulder up BADLY in that little thing.

    I left the rod in the dumpster and slipped on a better one."



    Also a few more points...that weren't covered in the video.. these tests were fairly controlled... i.e. 70deg... etc. One thing shooters don't consider is that these rifles have been used in combat in temperatures above 100deg...that temp alone has the ability to increase pressures across the board by 10% or more...and these rifles all handled it with no trouble. So that should show there is still plenty of safety margin built into them.


    So far in my 30 years of shooting these I have not seen a "broken" oprod... I've seen people take screwdrivers to the handle trying to pry it out instead of using the dismount notch...then they blame the ammo bent their rod...no ...you did with that screwdriver you idjit!

    I hope this reply helps...
     
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  21. Jeremy2171

    Jeremy2171 Semper Gumby

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    Also the rods can be bent during disassembly as well.
     
  22. Jeremy2171

    Jeremy2171 Semper Gumby

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    Did you watch the video?
     
  23. pinkbunny

    pinkbunny Senior Member Charter Life Member

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    Makes sense, the idea that military guns are overbuilt, and that the figures they give is very conservative makes a lot of sense. I'd never thought of the op-rod issue in terms of lubrication, makes a good deal of sense when seen in that light, thanks.
     
  24. Jeremy2171

    Jeremy2171 Semper Gumby

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    I'll just touch on that last comment....

    You know why no one these days thinks of that? Because the generation that grew up using the M1/M14 and GREASE is quickly leaving us....we never heard of "bent oprods" in the 60-70s etc...because most M1 shooters learned about grease in BOOT CAMP....something many shooters today don't know about. PLUS todays military doesn't use grease...just various forms of oil/break free etc.

    So there is that distinct lack of education on the proper lubrication of the Garand rifle...
     
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  25. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter Klugscheißer

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    @Jeremy2171 - you referenced Boyles law and its relation between pressure and velocity during 9:36 to 9:44 of the video. Can you provide the exact relationship you used (equation)?

    In Boyles law, temperature and mass are constant, volume and pressure are inversely related, and I'm trying to figure out how you brought velocity into the equation.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2018
  26. Jeremy2171

    Jeremy2171 Semper Gumby

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    At lunch so I'll be short.

    By velocity I meant bolt/oprod speed..

    The different port pressure of the various types of ammo will dictate the bolt velocity.

    That velocity is what I measured to compare the various loadings.


    Hope that helps.
     
  27. Charlie

    Charlie Member

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    I did.
     
  28. Jeremy2171

    Jeremy2171 Semper Gumby

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    Did you also download the spreadsheet with all the data showing commercial ammo with ~ the same bolt speed as milsurp?
     
  29. Charlie

    Charlie Member

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    I took your word for it when you basically summarized the results. I have no doubt that your results are accurate. I wonder whether your data tell the whole story.

    I do know what happened to me when I tried some slow burning powder. Is bolt speed the only factor to consider? Could the timing and duration of the acceleration to that bolt speed also be a factor that needs to be examined?
     
  30. Jeremy2171

    Jeremy2171 Semper Gumby

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    pretty much yes bolt speed is indicative of the "port pressure". Remember..the bullet has left the muzzle BEFORE the oprod starts to move...so the oprod is moved by the amount of gas the enters the cylinder...and exerts itself against the oprod....as the oprod starts to act upon that impulse...the bullet is out the bore and gas pressure immediately decreases...

    I'm going to hazard a guess...your rifle may not have been properly lubed with grease...that extra friction added resistance to the oprod and the only place it can really bend is the handle area where it must cam the bolt open... if thats all dry then the weakest link IS the oprod....

    My next video (soon) will actually test THAT theory in checking bolt speed in my rifle PROPERLY greased and then completely degreased and bone dry... if it's a big a change as I "think" it is...then I'm going to say the problem all along is lack of proper lubrication...


    On a side note...I swapped in a worn oprod spring at the end of my testing...it was 18.9" (min is 19") and fired more HXP....bolt speed increased approximately 10%....


    So NOW we have no LUBE and a WEAK spring.....I don't think either one alone is a good thing...combined it may be worse... tests will see....
     
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  31. Dale Flinchum

    Dale Flinchum Member

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    The IMR 4895 used back in the day of National Match ammo is not the same as that of today. The current blend is faster burning and should be reduced by several grains.
     
  32. pinkbunny

    pinkbunny Senior Member Charter Life Member

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    Are you going to use any alternate methods to double check the FPS that the bolt is moving?
    Something like a digital speed tester, or measuring measuring the number of frames to move to the rear, in comparison to the length of the bolt travel and the Frames/second of the film?
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2018
  33. Jeremy2171

    Jeremy2171 Semper Gumby

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    Thats how I measured...so figure a margin of error of +/- 1 frame.
     
  34. ERE99

    ERE99 Member

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    The 2nd load on the spreadsheet, using 4350, is rather stout even with 150gr bullet.

    I got Silver at Butner this year using 52gr 4350 and 168smk... My m1903 load I grabbed by accident lol
     
  35. Jeremy2171

    Jeremy2171 Semper Gumby

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    Yep I specifically loaded that to see what 4350 what do behind a 150grn.

    So 4350 is ok in certain cases..