Thread discipline.......

[tanstaafl72555]

@CCannonJr

In a prior thread, we were discussing the rise of digital tech, how this might or might not be a key to uncovering the meaning of Revelation and the antichrist and the "mark of the beast." In that thread, I stated that for almost 2,000 years, the best minds in the body of Christ interpreted these passages in Revelation (and elsewhere) as emblematic of the continual hostility of the world to the gospel, and not hints at some technology, whose discovery would "unlock" the meaning of the final persecution of Christians. Calvin, Augustine, Luther, Spurgeon, Whitefield, Edwards, Aquinas, William Carey, Ignatius, Tertullian, Jerome, and almost every luminary and student of the bible for 2,000 years would have viewed the idea that Revelation contained obscure references to 20th/21st century technology which would only become clear with time... they would have viewed that as bizarre, if not outright heretical......

Here is your response, and here we pick up

They were wrong. That's easy to see.

That is an appalling amount of arrogance, which can only come from 1) Ignorance of what they taught and 2) Ignorance of the actual texts of the Old Testament, which they link to in explaining the symbolism of the book of Revelation. The Old Testament is filled with symbolism, imagery and allegory, which John knew (and the modern day "prophecy experts" seem to have zero knowledge about). The older, wiser, more biblically grounded saints looked TO THE BIBLE ITSELF to interpret these sometimes bizarre pictures and symbols, not the newspaper or frantically running to this or that cultural/technological development and announcing "THIS IS IT, IT IS FINALLY HERE." This kind of sensationalism is silly, and has, imo, done great harm. Unfortunately this kind of "prophecy" stuff is all many American Christians know about "end times" biblical teaching. It becomes "easy to see" because it is the only lens through which history and the bible come to most evangelicals. When one actually looks outside the echo chamber of the "rapture could come today!" people, it is surprising to see that there is a rich depth of serious biblical alternative to this view.

There's one major thing missing....the 2nd coming of Christ.

Well, we can agree that we look to the second coming of Christ to wrap this up. However, Jesus himself says very clearly and unambiguously that the gospel shall be preached TO ALL THE EARTH, and then the end shall come. This has not been done. This is (so I believe) the reason that Peter says we can actually "HASTEN" the coming of the day of the Lord (clearly the end of time, as 2 Peter 3:12 says in context). That is, we can actually impact the timing of the return of Jesus by presenting the gospel to those who have never heard.

Most interestingly the "signs of the end" you hear the "prophetic end times" folk bawling about (earthquakes, fires, floods, wars and famine) are cited specifically as NOT signs of the end. Jesus specifically says so in Matt 24: 6-14. He gives a list of various dramatic events/disasters/hard times and then says SPECIFICALLY in v 6 that "the end is not yet" implying that these are events that will occur up to and including the end (v14) when the gospel has been preached to the entire world "and then the end shall come."

As to the "mark of the beast" being a digital imprint on forehead and hand.... my response is "meh"... maybe. I do think there is good evidence that the GENERAL mark of the beast that has ALWAYS been required to enter in to the necessities of life. The sytem of this world, the powers of the state, which is the "beast" is not, nor has it ever been a personal antichrist. If you read Revelation in anything other than a "see. this means this and this means that and lets all wait for the "rapture".... which is, btw, never mentioned not even hinted at in the book of Revelation...., what you see is not a series of a snapshot of the worlds final events, but rather a description of the two kingdoms in conflict and their representatives, and how God both preserves and guarantees the final triumph of His people, and His ultimate re establishment of kingdom so that earth "morphs" into heaven itself. If in the process, God permits the hateful wicked powers in this world to attempt to impose ultimate authority by domination over commerce and freedom (you certainly saw that desire in the last covid kerfuffle), then I may be one of the countless persons privileged to say "no" to the beast, and suffer for it..., maybe even to losing my life in the process. MAYBE digital technology will be used in that process, and maybe something as yet undreamed of by men. My job is not to frantically scan the news looking for "this is the antichrist and here are his tools" but rather to say "this is my job to be done" (living the kingdom of God with my family, telling the gospel who whoever will receive it, and planning my life to be directed to the one great goal of seeing that gospel extended to those who have not heard it).

So, although I think the "prophecy" junk with its obsession with antichrist and frantically looking for "666" everywhere in computer code, and engaging in some of the silly and shallow analysis of culture, is actually IGNORING the true keys to interpreting Revelation by remaining ignorant of the clearly given "hints" in OT imagery, I can say that we are in agreement that the second coming of Jesus is what we are looking for.

I have ordered a book that might be helpful to you, since I am assuming you are probably like I was when I first began looking at this stuff, with no knowledge at all of any biblical basis for anything other than the "Left Behind" stuff of end times theology.... although "Left Behind" had not yet issued from the fevered brain of Tim LaHaye at the time I began looking at it. My first book besides the bible I read on the topic was Hal Lindsey's "Late Great Planet Earth".... tells you how old I am . Anyway, I want to review it, and if I may, I will send you a copy. Give me a week or so.

 

[CCannonJr]

@CCannonJr

In a prior thread, we were discussing the rise of digital tech, how this might or might not be a key to uncovering the meaning of Revelation and the antichrist and the "mark of the beast." In that thread, I stated that for almost 2,000 years, the best minds in the body of Christ interpreted these passages in Revelation (and elsewhere) as emblematic of the continual hostility of the world to the gospel, and not hints at some technology, whose discovery would "unlock" the meaning of the final persecution of Christians. Calvin, Augustine, Luther, Spurgeon, Whitefield, Edwards, Aquinas, William Carey, Ignatius, Tertullian, Jerome, and almost every luminary and student of the bible for 2,000 years would have viewed the idea that Revelation contained obscure references to 20th/21st century technology which would only become clear with time... they would have viewed that as bizarre, if not outright heretical......

Here is your response, and here we pick up

That is an appalling amount of arrogance, which can only come from 1) Ignorance of what they taught and 2) Ignorance of the actual texts of the Old Testament, which they link to in explaining the symbolism of the book of Revelation. The Old Testament is filled with symbolism, imagery and allegory, which John knew (and the modern day "prophecy experts" seem to have zero knowledge about). The older, wiser, more biblically grounded saints looked TO THE BIBLE ITSELF to interpret these sometimes bizarre pictures and symbols, not the newspaper or frantically running to this or that cultural/technological development and announcing "THIS IS IT, IT IS FINALLY HERE." This kind of sensationalism is silly, and has, imo, done great harm. Unfortunately this kind of "prophecy" stuff is all many American Christians know about "end times" biblical teaching. It becomes "easy to see" because it is the only lens through which history and the bible come to most evangelicals. When one actually looks outside the echo chamber of the "rapture could come today!" people, it is surprising to see that there is a rich depth of serious biblical alternative to this view.

Well, we can agree that we look to the second coming of Christ to wrap this up. However, Jesus himself says very clearly and unambiguously that the gospel shall be preached TO ALL THE EARTH, and then the end shall come. This has not been done. This is (so I believe) the reason that Peter says we can actually "HASTEN" the coming of the day of the Lord (clearly the end of time, as 2 Peter 3:12 says in context). That is, we can actually impact the timing of the return of Jesus by presenting the gospel to those who have never heard.

Most interestingly the "signs of the end" you hear the "prophetic end times" folk bawling about (earthquakes, fires, floods, wars and famine) are cited specifically as NOT signs of the end. Jesus specifically says so in Matt 24: 6-14. He gives a list of various dramatic events/disasters/hard times and then says SPECIFICALLY in v 6 that "the end is not yet" implying that these are events that will occur up to and including the end (v14) when the gospel has been preached to the entire world "and then the end shall come."

As to the "mark of the beast" being a digital imprint on forehead and hand.... my response is "meh"... maybe. I do think there is good evidence that the GENERAL mark of the beast that has ALWAYS been required to enter in to the necessities of life. The sytem of this world, the powers of the state, which is the "beast" is not, nor has it ever been a personal antichrist. If you read Revelation in anything other than a "see. this means this and this means that and lets all wait for the "rapture".... which is, btw, never mentioned not even hinted at in the book of Revelation...., what you see is not a series of a snapshot of the worlds final events, but rather a description of the two kingdoms in conflict and their representatives, and how God both preserves and guarantees the final triumph of His people, and His ultimate re establishment of kingdom so that earth "morphs" into heaven itself. If in the process, God permits the hateful wicked powers in this world to attempt to impose ultimate authority by domination over commerce and freedom (you certainly saw that desire in the last covid kerfuffle), then I may be one of the countless persons privileged to say "no" to the beast, and suffer for it..., maybe even to losing my life in the process. MAYBE digital technology will be used in that process, and maybe something as yet undreamed of by men. My job is not to frantically scan the news looking for "this is the antichrist and here are his tools" but rather to say "this is my job to be done" (living the kingdom of God with my family, telling the gospel who whoever will receive it, and planning my life to be directed to the one great goal of seeing that gospel extended to those who have not heard it).

So, although I think the "prophecy" junk with its obsession with antichrist and frantically looking for "666" everywhere in computer code, and engaging in some of the silly and shallow analysis of culture, is actually IGNORING the true keys to interpreting Revelation by remaining ignorant of the clearly given "hints" in OT imagery, I can say that we are in agreement that the second coming of Jesus is what we are looking for.

I have ordered a book that might be helpful to you, since I am assuming you are probably like I was when I first began looking at this stuff, with no knowledge at all of any biblical basis for anything other than the "Left Behind" stuff of end times theology.... although "Left Behind" had not yet issued from the fevered brain of Tim LaHaye at the time I began looking at it. My first book besides the bible I read on the topic was Hal Lindsey's "Late Great Planet Earth".... tells you how old I am . Anyway, I want to review it, and if I may, I will send you a copy. Give me a week or so.

Very thoughtful writing. I can appreciate that. I don't disagree with anything you have stated here. We do have one huge advantage over the famous names you mentioned, and that is simply the passage of time.

You are very correct when you speak of the symbolism in Revelation. John was given a dream, and Revelation is his attempt to document what was revealed in that dream. He saw things in that dream that didn't exist in his day, but he had to describe them with the words that he knew. Hence, his description of nations hurling arrows at one another. Clearly, what he saw were missiles. That's just one example of something we can understand today that he could not.

I also went back and read your original post in the thread that got this started. I believe you are right there too. Our country is done. We cannot vote our way out of the mess we are in. As a matter of fact, America and the USA is never mentioned in the Bible, unless you consider the Whore of Babylon. I do not believe we will be here for any of the Tribulation. I believe we are the Whore of Babylon, the nation destroyed in an hour, who the entire world mourns the loss of because she was their great trading partner.

Putin is preparing his nation for nuclear war as I write this. Our foolish government thinks it couldn't happen, but I assure you that if Putin feels backed into a corner, it can and will happen. There would be no response from our flat-footed government.

Your information shows you reside in Spring Hope. I work near Rocky Mount, but reside 50 miles to the east.

 

[tanstaafl72555]

I think the core of our disagreement is going to be over whether the book of Revelation is a) a letter/epistle describing the entire scope of how God's people live in a fallen world up until the time of the time it all wraps up or b) a pre written history of (mostly) the events surrounding the very last few days/years before that wrap up.

It is pretty clear you hold to the latter, and this is the "grid" through which you view the imagery. With this viewpoint, it is natural that you would see this imagery as referring to technology and 21st century stuff that had not been invented or even envisioned by John in AD 95 (or thereabouts).

I don't share that view. Nor did the entirety of the Christian church before what I call the "scofield bible" crowd picked up a new innovation of a radical approach to the traditional premillennial view, dividing Israel from the church, dividing the messages of salvation from the old and new, and inventing a previously unheard of doctrine of a "secret rapture" of "the church" so God can go back to "plan A" (Israel). Almost all the prophecy buffs who spin this stuff nowadays about the antichrist and 666 computers and rapture imminent etc etc are fiercely aligned with this view, which is, again, something unheard of before around 1820, when a sect in Plymouth England considering itself the purified church and the trueblue REAL Christians withdrew to become super holy and leave the unwashed uncommitted to their sinful ways. They met up with a heretic who had been expelled from the Presbyterian ministry, Edward Irving, who had his own group of spiritual commandos meeting in exclusiveness, who got direct communication from God. One of those girls received a "revelation" one night, a Margaret McDonald, who could not read - so God had to talk directly to her, as her bible reading skills were not top notch. She informed us that the entire church for 1820 years had been WRONG, and that the coming of Jesus would be in two stages. One was in semi secrecy, where Jesus would snatch away the truly committed and save them from the "tribulation" (which was NOT the period of time from the coming of Jesus to His second coming, as the church had believed) but a time of special intensity of persecution of believers.... but not the church, only believing Israel led believers....). If this gets confusing there are lots of neat charts that spell it all out for us. Anyway, the founder of the Plymouth Brethren, a John Darby (who started out a really good and dedicated man and was HORRIBLY hurt and misused by the institutional church... his history is a tragedy), picked up on McDonald's vision, included it in his teachings where it made its way into the Scofield Bible. All that is "dispensationalism" in the modern church and is the core of what most people are talking about who hold to an idea that Revelation is like a series of snapshots of events surrounding the last few days/weeks/months/years before the end of time. Most Christians in America have no idea that this view is 1) foreign to any scholars in church history before 1820 (yes, I have read Thomas Ice!) 2)NOT the view of most serious scholars who hold the bible to be the word of God today. I was taught that this view was the ONLY view for bible believing Christians and was shocked to find out that it is based on very poor methods of interpretation of the bible.

Anyway, I think that this is going to be the root of why we might disagree on Revelation. I have many dear friends who are "dispensationalists" and have great respect for John Macarthur, who is a (modified) believer of that school. I just no longer come from that vantage point. If you have an interest in exploring this, you might grab a look at some youtube vids by one of my professors in the past, a guy named RC Sproul. I have not looked to see if he did much review of this online, but his classes on it were excellent. If you have an interest, I will try to scare something up.

At any rate, it is always better to know WHY we might be in disagreement with someone than just to settle into our opposing views without understanding what we are actually talking about.

Thanks for the time.

 

[Car0linab0y]

I have read much on Revelations and it's message. I have read the Bible looking for "the Rapture" and haven't found it.

The book of Revelations IMHO is symbolism about the way good and evil will clash, not a checklist of events to watch for.

The Left Behind series was an interesting "how about this" look at Revelations; but I took ot as fiction to provoke thought and entertain.

I think we are drawing closer to the end, but that has been the position of believers beginning with the original Apostles.

Stick with Christ. Over time, things are gonna suck for believers; but He told us that. The reward is there for those who hold true.

I don't have a timeline; only God does. Ride it out and be kind.

 

[CCannonJr]

I have read much on Revelations and it's message. I have read the Bible looking for "the Rapture" and haven't found it.

The book of Revelations IMHO is symbolism about the way good and evil will clash, not a checklist of events to watch for.

The Left Behind series was an interesting "how about this" look at Revelations; but I took ot as fiction to provoke thought and entertain.

I think we are drawing closer to the end, but that has been the position of believers beginning with the original Apostles.

Stick with Christ. Over time, things are gonna suck for believers; but He told us that. The reward is there for those who hold true.

I don't have a timeline; only God does. Ride it out and be kind.

When the Rapture is discussed, most tend to assume it must be mentioned in Revelation. The verses that refer to such an event are actually in Ezekiel 26 and 27. I agree that Revelation is about how good and evil will clash. But that is a very generalized statement. Many events will take place leading to the ultimate clash, Armageddon. Revelation is a description of a vision given to John in the form of a dream describing those events in the best way he knew to describe them.

 

[tanstaafl72555]

When the Rapture is discussed, most tend to assume it must be mentioned in Revelation. The verses that refer to such an event are actually in Ezekiel 26 and 27.

I think you mean chapters 37-42. I would disagree with that being the correct interpretation of those passages, but chapters 26 and 27 have to do with judgments coming against Tyre.

 

[tanstaafl72555]

Probably the "best" (clearest teaching... I consider it to be horribly wrongheaded) on the rapture stuff is David Jeremiah.
Here is a link to his explanation of this doctrine: https://davidjeremiah.blog/what-is-the-rapture/

 

[tanstaafl72555]

Something that is going on today, though, that we can ALL agree on, I believe, is the need to pray for the citizens of Israel (and the Arabs attacking them!). One of the "maybe/probably/likely" events preceding the coming of Jesus again may well be a mass turning of Jews to the messiah. There are definite hints towards that in Romans 11, and some of the great missionary movements in history have all had this in prayer as an object to ask God for.

I remember hitchiking thru Costa Rica with a kid who had fought in the 73 Yom Kippur war. Very secular, fun guy. We swam in the Carribbean, ate great food, soaked up rays, watched pretty girls on the beach and flirted with them, and just hung out. He was the first person I ever shared the gospel with using ONLY the message of the Older Testament. We went thru the "seed of the woman" to why God chose Abraham" (TO BLESS A GOYIM LIKE ME!.... he laughed) and the messianic strain and theme in the entire Tanach. Sacrifices, tabernacles, promises of a coming prophet, Psalm 22, the entire second codex of Isaiah (40-66). I have never felt quite like that, talking to this kid (my age) who was really intense, and polite and truly listened, hoping and praying God would "graft him back in." He had stayed with some Christians on a ranch in TX... "they believed like you do... they were really good people." 46 years later and I still pray for him.

Who can look at all this stuff going on in the ME and not pray that God would send a thunderclap of revival and call His people out of a covenant CURSE (which is where they live now, cf Dt 27/28) into true blessing. Might be good for all of us to ask God to unblind eyes, make hearts alive, and help them fall in love with their Messiah. God did it for us, after all. How much more to do it for them?

Anyway.....

 

[DrScaryGuy]

Well, we can agree that we look to the second coming of Christ to wrap this up. However, Jesus himself says very clearly and unambiguously that the gospel shall be preached TO ALL THE EARTH, and then the end shall come. This has not been done. This is (so I believe) the reason that Peter says we can actually "HASTEN" the coming of the day of the Lord (clearly the end of time, as 2 Peter 3:12 says in context). That is, we can actually impact the timing of the return of Jesus by presenting the gospel to those who have never heard.

Didja see that emergency alert thing to all phones/tvs/radios earlier this week? we're on the way. One religious hacker might take advantage of such things... people have abused the alert system for fun before...

and it always cracks me up in movies when the religious folk try to stop the apocalypse, or plot to kill the kid that will become the antichrist... why?
you know what happens right before the antichrist takes power? you know how the end of the Book turns out? why are you fighting the plan, priest?

 

[Starkherz199]

Love this thread. I am currently writing my sermon for tomorrow morning, and don't have the time to comment on this today, intelligently. Let me leave just a few comments and a few book recommendations.

First...the book by Steve Gregg Revelation: Four Views, A Parallel Commentary, Revised & Updated Edition is the best resource for comparing the 4 views of Revelation. It is a remarkable book.

Second book...Understanding Prophecy: A Biblical-Theological Approach Paperback – by Alan Bandy and Benjamin Merkle, is a really nice primer for seeing Prophecy in the Old and New Testament. I urge everyone to read it before they study Revelation as it gives you some intellectual tools to use. The book is not about what's in prophecy...its about the nature of Prophecy. Goldmine resource.

3rd book -- Covenantal and Dispensational Theologies: Four Views on the Continuity of Scripture by Brent E. Parker and Richard J. Lucas. Another great resources that compares 4 views.


I don't take a position on Revelation. I examine all the views and try to learn as much as possible. Therefore I ask people to consider the views they've never heard of.

What I do know is this. The Book of Revelation was written to give hope to seven 1st century Churches in Asia Minor. It was not written to give a secret coded message to 7 megachurches in the 21st century. Any interpretation that the 1st century audience would not understand is false. If they didn't understand it, and didn't find it relevant, they wouldn't have shared it, and it would not have survived to be included in the Bible.

Also, Revelation quotes the Old Testament more than any other book of the New Testament. If you don't have a thorough understanding of the Old Testament, the individual genre's of Hebrew scripture, the covenant structure of the scriptures, the messianic prophecies (both verbal and typological), and how the individual genre's of Hebrew writing matter to interpretation, then it's best to put Revelation down and come back to it later.

And don't forget the big picture message of Revelation; God is sovereign over the universe, is totally in control of everything that is going on, will punish the wicked people and fallen angels, and he/she that endures to the end will be saved. If your interpretation of Revelation makes you pessimistic, and gives you the urge to hide in a cave and wait for the rapture...you read it wrong.

One more book recommendation.
Before Jerusalem Fell: Dating the Book of Revelation by Kenneth L. Gentry
I was completely hostile to the early dating of the writing of Revelation until I read this book (the author's doctoral dissertation) and verified the authors sources. I now am beyond thoroughly convinced, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the Apocalypse of John was written between 64-67 AD from the internal and external evidence. The dating of the book alters how you potentially see the contents and is extremely important.


Wait...one more book recommendation.
The Day and the Hour by Francis X. Gumerloc
An exhaustive list of the failed predictions on Revelation for the past 1950 years.

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[tanstaafl72555]

Also, Revelation quotes the Old Testament more than any other book of the New Testament. If you don't have a thorough understanding of the Old Testament, the individual genre's of Hebrew scripture, the covenant structure of the scriptures, the messianic prophecies (both verbal and typological), and how the individual genre's of Hebrew writing matter to interpretation, then it's best to put Revelation down and come back to it later.

money quote..... although everything there is golden