Time to reconsider our approach?

Some good point here for us to consider and keep in mind.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...porters-are-losing-the-war-on-guns-heres-why/


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The truth.

NRA money bought gun bill opposition but politicians are running scared now. Instead of paying 5 million dollars for a leaders salary and many millions to Sarah Palin to represent gun owners that money should have been used to run ads on keeping gun ownership intact. The NRA has become a bank account for a few who get filthy rich at the expense of the average donor. We are group of whiners who are too busy to devote our time and efforts to protecting rights. We want to buy our rights leaving the battle to a few organizations that news media love to pummel on the TV.
 
WE ARE LOOSING THE WAR BECAUSE WE CAN'T UNITE BEHIND ANYTHING. We had a bill to treat reciprocity like drivers licenses did we support it as a group no because some gun owners live in a fantasy world where the 2nd admemdment is all we need. now I see it in the rifles some of us don't have a problem with making the age 21. some of us keep saying they can never "ban" guns. some of us "hate" the NRA but the NRA is most likely why we have what 2A rights we have left. whe have Gun owners that are quick to say "see I told you about Trump" (would Hillary be better). We NEED to find a way to support 2A rights as a group. But I am afraid that we will never come together and the gun grabbers are always on the same page supporting any loss of gun rights, we will loose!!!!!!
 
WE ARE LOOSING THE WAR BECAUSE WE CAN'T UNITE BEHIND ANYTHING. We had a bill to treat reciprocity like drivers licenses did we support it as a group no because some gun owners live in a fantasy world where the 2nd admemdment is all we need. now I see it in the rifles some of us don't have a problem with making the age 21. some of us keep saying they can never "ban" guns. some of us "hate" the NRA but the NRA is most likely why we have what 2A rights we have left. whe have Gun owners that are quick to say "see I told you about Trump" (would Hillary be better). We NEED to find a way to support 2A rights as a group. But I am afraid that we will never come together and the gun grabbers are always on the same page supporting any loss of gun rights, we will loose!!!!!!

Ah...I see.

We need to "give". We need to compromise. We need to cede Y to get X.

No.

What we need are folks who take a firm, unwavering stance on the RTKBA....not in part, but the whole. "I support the Second Amendment, but...." ain't gonna cut it. You either support it, or you don't; really no gray areas. It's akin to saying a gal is a little bit pregnant. No; she is or she ain't...same goes for support of the RTKBA.

The reason we can't get on the same page is due to folks wanting to carve out their own little exceptions into the right instead of taking it at face value.
 
Fudds do more damage than lefties; the stand needs to be against them.

Lefties are predictable and ridiculous; many of their pipe dreams will never happen but plenty of fudd ones can.
 
Ah...I see.

We need to "give". We need to compromise. We need to cede Y to get X.

No.

What we need are folks who take a firm, unwavering stance on the RTKBA....not in part, but the whole. "I support the Second Amendment, but...." ain't gonna cut it. You either support it, or you don't; really no gray areas. It's akin to saying a gal is a little bit pregnant. No; she is or she ain't...same goes for support of the RTKBA.

The reason we can't get on the same page is due to folks wanting to carve out their own little exceptions into the right instead of taking it at face value.

I would add that on a more strategic and less emotional level every time there is a compromise or carve out to avoid a larger argument it only results in a new starting point next time. It's like a football game where we keep taking a 5' delay of game penalty hoping not to make a turnover. Eventually you are backed up to the goalline with no good options. It is a losing strategy long term.
 
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I have said it before and here it is again... it is time to start focusing on the first 13 words of the 2nd Amendment and not the last 14:
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

...and one more time here also, the National Guard is not the militia.
 
Because it is defined in the Bill of Needs
Thanks for that wonderful insight. I'll rephrase my question for anyone else who seems to have trouble rubbing brain cells together...

"What is it about the AR and AK platform that makes everyone want one?"
 
It won’t matter, stand on principal or trade it away a bit at a time, relatively unregulated gun ownership is not going to survive 15 more years.

We’ll have increased taxes and full registration from the Democrats when they get control, if the Republicans don’t do it first.

Significant changes to SCOTUS are the only real chance we have of changing this, and that’s just a stopgap measure.

Want to change this, change out politicians and change out leadership at the NRA for folks that have a new vision, one that recognizes that a few hundred, or a few thousand, deaths are not that important in the scheme of things and that almost no crisis is a sound basis for policy changes. It wouldn’t hurt to fund an assault on the first amendment to help manage the media.
 
Don't set me on fire for this question, because I'm just wondering... What do we need AR's and AK's for?

I use them for hunting and protection.

There are bad people in the world. They outnumber me and the family a lot to 5 so an equalizer is needed.
 
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I use my AR’s for Hunting, Target Shooting, Steel Matches, 2 and 3 gun Events, Home Defense, Predator Control. At 18 Uncle Sam gave me one and I fell in love with them and have not looked back. If I could find a full auto at a price I could afford I would have one of them also. I tried a Bump Stock and did not like it.
 
Don't set me on fire for this question, because I'm just wondering... What do we need AR's and AK's for?

The security of a free state.

The protection/preservation of liberty...that is the primary intent behind the RTKBA. Somewhere along the way, the focus shifted. No longer was it about an armed citizenry safeguarding their birthright. Now, it was about hunting, sportsmen, competitors, target shooting and the like. It became less about liberty and more about recreation.

Don't get me wrong...I enjoy hunting, range time, busting clays, etc, but those are only by-products of the right. The primary intent is the same now as it has always been...to ensure free citizens have the means to remain free.
 
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Thanks for that wonderful insight. I'll rephrase my question for anyone else who seems to have trouble rubbing brain cells together...

"What is it about the AR and AK platform that makes everyone want one?"

I use mine only for competition. Either I am shooting at a match, or preparing it to be shot at a match.

But, I failed by entertaining the question at all. All any human really "needs" is: Basic shelter, water, food. You can get that in prison! Think about that for a minute.
 
Well, at least I got a few straight answers, granted, that's what I get for playing devil's advocate for a minute. Personally, I don't shoot in any competitions, I don't hunt, but I do dump quite a bit of lead in the back yard. I'm a bit of a tannerite whore, and would like to setup some decent steel targets, instead of using old computer parts.

With that said, it shows that while some of you are capable of thought-provoking discussion, some of you need your guns since you couldn't defend your stance with words if your lives depended on it.
 
Thanks for that wonderful insight. I'll rephrase my question for anyone else who seems to have trouble rubbing brain cells together...

"What is it about the AR and AK platform that makes everyone want one?"

I can't speak for everyone, and there are a lot of people who simply want things because they saw them on TV and thought they were cool. Some buy guns and never shoot them, and have no real idea what the 2nd means.

At the time of the drafting of the second, "arms" meant anything that could be manually maneuvered and operated. This included explosives and cannons. The second was put in place to ensure that the citizens would always have the same weapons of war that a military unit would have, whether that unit be foreign or domestic.

Yes, I believe that the second includes mortars, cannons and crew served weapons and they should not be restricted. As it stands, only crew served weapons manufactured before 1984 are available to us and they are heavily regulated and expensive.

As such, the AR, AK and HK-91 style of rifle is the closest most of us can come without having to pay through the nose.

When people say that they are just weapons of war with no purpose other than killing my usual response is "You're GD right they are and that's why our military and law enforcement carry them. And that is why I own them as well so that I won't be as out gunned as they are trying to make me should the need ever arise."
 
Well, at least I got a few straight answers, granted, that's what I get for playing devil's advocate for a minute. Personally, I don't shoot in any competitions, I don't hunt, but I do dump quite a bit of lead in the back yard. I'm a bit of a tannerite whore, and would like to setup some decent steel targets, instead of using old computer parts.

With that said, it shows that while some of you are capable of thought-provoking discussion, some of you need your guns since you couldn't defend your stance with words if your lives depended on it.

Just wait, your tannerite will be on the list at some point. As to AR's and Ak's IMO human beings have an inherent right to self defense and self preservation. You can say that right comes from God or you can say it comes from the trees and Earth. Doesn't matter to me. So a human has the right to the BEST tool for self defense and freedom as he/she can acquire without violating someone else's rights. So no stealing. In our founder's times they talked of God given rights and Natural Rights. They thought nothing of farmers and businessmen having muskets and canons if they could afford them. So IMO we should not stop at ARs and Aks. We should be ignoring the ignorant kids and their Marxist overlords and be calling for an end to the NFA restrictions. We should be able to buy suppressors off the shelf at your local shop, fully automatic rifles and whatever the heck else we want. If a person hasn't broken the law and isn't currently behind bars then he or she should be free to have weapons. Sure, there will be some risk associated with that, but let's compare that risk to life in a 'gun free' society. Anyone care to go to Venezuela, Mexico, N. Korea, China or any of those wonderful gun free zones? Heck, or Detroit, Baltimore or Chicago? Or take your chances with the neighbor you don't really like owning a fully automatic AR?

So why AR's and AKs? Because they are currently the best tools we can legally buy for self defense. And they are good for hunting too. And they are fun. If they were magically eliminated tomorrow there would probably be a run in Mini 14s and 30s and the next best thing people could acquire. When those are all taken away, then maybe 10 round lever actions. When you let them take those away we'll use bolt actions and shotguns. Then they'll take those away, and only the ultra wealthy will have guns in their private clubs. And we'll be victims in our cities just like they are over the Europe now.

And insulting members that aren't as eloquent as you or see these issues exactly the same way you do isn't the best way to bring us all together. Not everybody has to be a spokesperson for our rights. Maybe the people you belittle have bigger stones than you or other talents that will someday be used to help the cause. We can't all be Clarence Darrow.
 
I can't speak for everyone, and there are a lot of people who simply want things because they saw them on TV and thought they were cool. Some buy guns and never shoot them, and have no real idea what the 2nd means.

At the time of the drafting of the second, "arms" meant anything that could be manually maneuvered and operated. This included explosives and cannons. The second was put in place to ensure that the citizens would always have the same weapons of war that a military unit would have, whether that unit be foreign or domestic.

Yes, I believe that the second includes mortars, cannons and crew served weapons and they should not be restricted. As it stands, only crew served weapons manufactured before 1984 are available to us and they are heavily regulated and expensive.

As such, the AR, AK and HK-91 style of rifle is the closest most of us can come without having to pay through the nose.

When people say that they are just weapons of war with no purpose other than killing my usual response is "You're GD right they are and that's why our military and law enforcement carry them. And that is why I own them as well so that I won't be as out gunned as they are trying to make me should the need ever arise."

Thank you for the absolute best answer I've seen yet. It actually covered all the bases, and eliminated any follow-up questions/statements from "the other side."

I actually had a similar conversation this morning, and I gave a similar response as yours, Chdamn, only I didn't put it as well, and I got the "Well how do you expect to defend from a tyrannical government that has tanks/drones/etc..."

The best response I had was, "Any way I can."
 
Well, at least I got a few straight answers, granted, that's what I get for playing devil's advocate for a minute.
Your question was based on a false premise; that the right to possess one is based upon need. It is a question that the antis use frequently, but reducto-absurdism says that you can keep drilling it down to where there is no need for any guns at all. Why do you need a semiautomatic, why do you need, a revolver, why do you need a double shotgun.... See where I am going? The right to keep and bear arms is not based upon individual need of a particular item, but on the principle of equality.

As far as why people like them? They're easy to shoot, easy to maintain, have lots of options available for inexpensive ammunition, can be used for hunting and defense, are versatile in terms of options and accessories, are good at both close, short distances as well as out to about 300 or 400 yards. What's not to like? The fact that they're a symbol that makes leftists crap their pants is icing on the cake.
 
why do i need so many poptart choices
 
With that said, it shows that while some of you are capable of thought-provoking discussion, some of you need your guns since you couldn't defend your stance with words if your lives depended on it.

Seriously?

Eloquence, whether spoken or typed, is not the primary indicator of how strongly an individual believes in a specific stance....it's just words.

Get down to what's in their gut and what's in their heart; that'll tell you all you need to know and they ain't gotta be a master wordsmith.

If a man's a patriot, it'll come out.
 
I actually had a similar conversation this morning, and I gave a similar response as yours, Chdamn, only I didn't put it as well, and I got the "Well how do you expect to defend from a tyrannical government that has tanks/drones/etc..."
The tanks and drones comment, interestingly another canned statement that seems to be spreading amongst the leftist/librul populace, is meant to be a conversation stopper and attempt to win at the same time.

The truth of the matter is that those tanks and drones won't be as effective as they might think. It takes a lot of logistics and manpower to operate them and that assumes the crews are willing to. Ok, they can undoubtedly take out a population center, but doing so will only deepen the revolt against them. The fact that these leftist types predominantly occupy mass population centers is a real weakness on there part.
 
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why do black people NEED to vote? Why do gay and transgender people NEED attention?

You were on a roll until the tranny thing. There really isn't such thing as 'tranny' medically speaking. There may be a few actual one's out in the wild, but they are a creation of deranged minds alone.
 
Well, at least I got a few straight answers, granted, that's what I get for playing devil's advocate for a minute. Personally, I don't shoot in any competitions, I don't hunt, but I do dump quite a bit of lead in the back yard. I'm a bit of a tannerite whore, and would like to setup some decent steel targets, instead of using old computer parts.

With that said, it shows that while some of you are capable of thought-provoking discussion, some of you need your guns since you couldn't defend your stance with words if your lives depended on it.
Why are on earth do you need tannerite. That stuff is dangerous and bothers the neighbor's sheep. That said I need mine becuase they are accurate rifles that are easy and affordable to shoot. The AR-15 platform is very flexable allowing me to hunt,target shoot, and protect my family. I need a rifle like this to hunt coyotes that hunt in packs and pose a very serious threat to the well being of my pug whilst she frolics on the back forty.
 
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You were on a roll until the tranny thing. There really isn't such thing as 'tranny' medically speaking. There may be a few actual one's out in the wild, but they are a creation of deranged minds alone.
They don't NEED you to tell them about their medical deforming ways. I don't need them getting irate.
 
The tanks and drones comment, interestingly another canned statement that seems to be spreading amongst the leftist/librul populace, is meant to be a conversation stopper and attempt to win at the same time.

The truth of the matter is that those tanks and drones won't be as effective as they might think. It takes a lot of logistics and manpower to operate them and that assumes the crews are willing to. Ok, they can undoubtedly take out a population center, but doing so will only deepen the revolt against them. The fact that these leftist types predominantly occupy mass population centers is a real weakness on there part.

Plus the tank and drone drivers have homes and families. And have to come out to pee at some point. :eek:
 
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