Vortex...lowering the bar?

Tim

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Is anyone else concerned with Vortex going after the lowest end of the market? My impression of the Strike Eagle line that came out a couple years ago was that is a was clear "miss" quality wise compared to their other offerings. Now, I see they're going even lower...

Vortex Sonora
 
Let me clarify...there is definitely a place for lower end optics. No doubt about that at all. My concern is with a company that built a reputation on quality and value (not the same as price), going to the low end where quality is an absolute victim of price.
 
Chuckman said:
I understand doing that from a business perspective. That said, you don't see high-end optics manufacturers bottom-dwelling; they focus on the mid-tier and high-tier stuff.

That looks to be a "hobby" line.
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yup, don't see many $200 Nightforce optics
 
Tim said:
yup, don't see many $200 Nightforce optics
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Nope, not even used. It's not hard to understand why Vortex would do this though, go to any gun show sometime and watch the import optics dudes sell a lot of fantastic looking junk scopes with cool lit reticles. They're making plenty of bottom feeder money because people don't understand the value of the better optic, and bottom feeder money spends just as well as discerning customer money.
 
You mean going after EVERY market....I think that Razor gen III optics line starts out at more than I bring home every 2 weeks
 
On Vortex's website it shows "limited distribution". When things are listed like that, I would think that someone specifically asked them to make this optic - maybe PSA did to bundle with their AR's. they ran out of pmags to throw into every box.
 
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Geerubb said:
On Vortex's website it shows "limited distribution". When things are listed like that, I would think that someone specifically asked them to make this optic - maybe PSA did to bundle with their AR's. they ran out of pmags to throw into every box.
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same as the Copperhead is basically a value-oriented Diamondback and a decent value
 
The Sonora is actually the Copperhead with an included mount.
All of it is lastgen Diamondback glass
 
Chuckman said:
I understand doing that from a business perspective.
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I really don't. Not at all. Let's say their margin is ~30% on these - which is likely too high, they likely make 30% of their wholesale price. So, they make max $45 per copy. At the cost of diluting their brand perception, I don't think it's worth it.
 
Tim said:
I really don't. Not at all. Let's say their margin is ~30% on these - which is likely too high, they likely make 30% of their wholesale price. So, they make max $45 per copy. At the cost of diluting their brand perception, I don't think it's worth it.
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Trying to hit all the markets, the low-end/hobby/plinker market? They have a base with the Sparc and AR Prism, maybe they are just spreading out a bit more, I don't know. I do agree, I don't think it's worth it.

I imagine if they stay at the serious entry-level, mid-tier, and upper-tier, they'd be more successful as a brand.
 
Ikarus1 said:
You mean going after EVERY market....I think that Razor gen III optics line starts out at more than I bring home every 2 weeks
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No kidding. If I had that scratch, I am not sure the Razor 3 is my first choice, but it would be in my top 3 or 4 choices. That is some serious optic.
 
There are many companies across all industries that make a lower end product for the sake of capturing that large segment of demand. High end means high margins but also low quantity. If you want to get into the volume game, mid and low grade is where you need to go.

Some companies do this by creating a sub-brand or buying a competitor and adding “-by Vortex” to the name. Some, like Vortex, simply rely on product line differentiation to prevent cheapening of the brand. I’ve seen, and wouldn’t be surprised if Vortex is doing this, where companies view their different lines as distinct brands so creating new brands under the same umbrella doesn’t matter so much. I disagree that Vortex is doing this well if this is their train of thought.

As a consumer, I don’t see a Razor as any less valuable just because they now make a Sonora. Look at luxury car brands, both BMW and Mercedes made a cheaper model (320i and CLA) to grab the lowest end of the new luxury market. The CLA is a joke, it was rated as the worst new car in multiple ways. I don’t think this impacts S class customers at all. They can drive by in their $200k car and laugh at the CLA guy for driving his plastic POS with MB badges.
 
If they can profitably build and sell an optic that cheap and still make money honoring their lifetime guarantee (which I assume applies to the Sonora also), more power to them. They provide a product that meets a market demand. Win for everyone involved. If you feel like your Razor is cheapened by the Sonora, go buy a better status symbol :)

(To be clear, I am not saying Razors are inherently status symbols, just that people who care what else Vortex sells have them as status symbols. As opposed to people who have a Razor because it is an awesome optic that performs the way they need it to, who won’t care about Sonora or Copperhead or whatever else).
 
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Why would I be concerned? I don't own any stock in Vortex. I do own a couple of their already inexpensive Crossfire scopes and now a Viper PST. Does my $150 Crossfire cheapen Vortex or cause you concern?


Edit: just looked at the link... Smoking deal. Might pick one up for a 22...
 
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JimP42 said:
just that people who care what else Vortex sells have them as status symbols. As opposed to people who have a Razor because it is an awesome optic that performs the way they need it to, who won’t care about Sonora or Copperhead or whatever else
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I get this argument. For what it's worth, I own exactly 1 vortex optic, a mid-range 1-4x PST. I shoot mostly Burris XTRs on my precision guns...and Burris tends to get the gear snob's nose's turned up, but I like them because they're great value/feature/warranty mix. So, no snobbery here.

I was thinking about it purely from a business perspective of 'protecting the brand' and not from the consumer/buyer perspective. It would be an interesting MBA in Marketing exercise is where I'm coming from.
 
...after reading through Zbizzles Long range rifle thread, this, and other discussions about optics...I see that I am going to quietly back myself into my cheap budget AR filled niche...settle accuracy issues through volume of fire...I am slightly envious of yall, seriously...$500-1,500 for "mid range" priced gear is impressive.
 
Tim said:
I get this argument. For what it's worth, I own exactly 1 vortex optic, a mid-range 1-4x PST. I shoot mostly Burris XTRs on my precision guns...and Burris tends to get the gear snob's nose's turned up, but I like them because they're great value/feature/warranty mix. So, no snobbery here.

I was thinking about it purely from a business perspective of 'protecting the brand' and not from the consumer/buyer perspective. It would be an interesting MBA in Marketing exercise is where I'm coming from.
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I love Burris optics. Top down I do not think they make a turd. I think the MTAC is one of the best sub-$500 optics on the market.

I think that Vortex has a pretty solid fan base. If the majority of users are buying mid-range and higher optics, my guess is they won't care if they put out 'meh' on the bottom end.
 
B00ger said:
...after reading through Zbizzles Long range rifle thread, this, and other discussions about optics...I see that I am going to quietly back myself into my cheap budget AR filled niche...settle accuracy issues through volume of fire...I am slightly envious of yall, seriously...$500-1,500 for "mid range" priced gear is impressive.
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So there is what the precision community (both military and competition) thinks is 'mid range,' and what I think is 'mid range' given my use. I will tell you, what I think is 'mid range' is a helluva lot closer to $500 than $1,500.
 
B00ger said:
...after reading through Zbizzles Long range rifle thread, this, and other discussions about optics...I see that I am going to quietly back myself into my cheap budget AR filled niche...settle accuracy issues through volume of fire...I am slightly envious of yall, seriously...$500-1,500 for "mid range" priced gear is impressive.
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As they frequently say on sniperhide , "go be poor somewhere else" =)

Precision is not a cheap game. BUT...it doesn't NEED to be expensive either. Check out my buddy Ray's youtube:
 
Tim said:
As they frequently say on sniperhide , "go be poor somewhere else" =)

Precision is not a cheap game. BUT...it doesn't NEED to be expensive either. Check out my buddy Ray's youtube:
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I said exactly that! Ill go be poor in my budget friendly AR little hole!

I'll check out those videos. What I said above was 90% tongue in cheek. I totally understand >most< of the reason for the price differences. But as an outsider looking in who really doesn't have the option or happenstance to shoot over 50-100 yards with any regularity it just seems a strange foreign niche of the firearm hobby to me. Totally an interesting one though! Putting rounds through a playing card at a half mile is impressive!
 
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I kinda see this more as expanding their hunting scope market than competing with their existing precision rifle optic lines. I would wager to guess that there are a lot more hunters than long range precision shooters. If so, putting out some cheaper scope lines targeted (pardon the pun) at drawing the non-specialized consumer might be a good move.
 
They used to make a 6-24X40(?) scope for $100. Wouldnt hold zero on a 22LR. Somebody told me they were just a marketing company. That they just jobber out or buy the products they sell and just have them brand labelled. Nightforce was doing that with the NXS line. Made by Light Optic Works in Japan. Vortex does seem to have a product at every price point. Weaver and Nikon got out of the rifle scope market in the last couple yrs. Too many players, too much competition. Good for consumers. Bad for corporate bottom line.
 
Tim said:
I get this argument. For what it's worth, I own exactly 1 vortex optic, a mid-range 1-4x PST. I shoot mostly Burris XTRs on my precision guns...and Burris tends to get the gear snob's nose's turned up, but I like them because they're great value/feature/warranty mix. So, no snobbery here.

I was thinking about it purely from a business perspective of 'protecting the brand' and not from the consumer/buyer perspective. It would be an interesting MBA in Marketing exercise is where I'm coming from.
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Yep. I know the original question was a question not a complaint.

I have a bunch of Vortex stuff. More than half my optics, but also some Athlon, Burris, Trijicon, Aimpoint, and Primary Arms. They all do their jobs well enough, or better, for me.

No Razor scopes but I like the PST gen 2 a lot.
 
They've always had lower tier optics in their lineup to include the Crossfire and Diamondback series

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
 
Wahoo95 said:
They've always had lower tier optics in their lineup to include the Crossfire and Diamondback series

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
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Don't you go throwing facts into the argument!



I kinda forgot about those lines when posting this....
 
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Tim said:
As they frequently say on sniperhide , "go be poor somewhere else" =)

Precision is not a cheap game. BUT...it doesn't NEED to be expensive either. Check out my buddy Ray's youtube:
Click to expand...

Dang, I didn't know Ray had a YouTube channel.

Smack him upside the head for me the next time you see him.
 
Stobie said:
Dang, I didn't know Ray had a YouTube channel.

Smack him upside the head for me the next time you see him.
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he puts out some good stuff. If you know Ray, you know he's that odd combination that actually knows what he's doing AND can present it well.
 
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Tim said:
he puts out some good stuff. If you know Ray, you know he's that odd combination that actually knows what he's doing AND can present it well.
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Ray seems to be able to excel at whatever he applies himself to. Heck of a driver and rider, as well as shooter. A bit of a Renaissance man.

I've never shot with him, only ridden and wrenched on motorcycles together.
 
The thing with optics is they have improved leaps and bounds over the last 20 years. Better engineering and manufacturing in Asia have lead to low end optics today that are quantifiably better than high end optics of just a few decades ago. It used to be that you needed to spend damn near the cost of the rifle or more to put worthwhile glass on it, now days you can spend a few hundred on a Chinese scope that will blow a US or European optic from 10 to 20 years ago out of the water.

The vast majority of shooters do not need a $1000+ optic and as such the market is starting to shift to cheaper optics with most of the features of the expensive ones like zero stop and 30mm+ tubes.
 
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