We Are Slaves

Shadowstats has a different take on inflation numbers. They way the Gov fudges job and inflation numbers nobody really knows where we are. Kinda like Covid case and death stats.

Whatever helps you sleep at night. LOL
 
Who really gets hurt in a minimum wage increase are the people who are currently performing at a higher level and making the rate the minimum wage will be increased to. If a guy is making $10 an hour now and they increase the min wage from $7-$10 no employer is going to move all of his $10 an hour employees to $13.


Agree 100%.

Whether it’s a hike in the minimum wage or a hike in entry starting pay, if the rate of pay does not increase that amount, across the board, for all positions, you end up with pay compression...

Folks coming into the job end up making close to or the same rate as a 15-20 year experienced employee. It is a surefire way to torpedo morale, yet it happens all the time.
 
I agree with you on the peril of increasing minimum wage.
As an example, if I have to increase the minimum wage from let’s say $10 to $15 per hour, I will be Looking to hire employees with $15 productivity and layoff the ones that I was paying $10 per hour which in conclusion will hurt the workers that that increase is supposed to help.
 
The hard core truth is putting your children through public school just reapeats the process.

I dont want to start a fight but sometimes its best to get an understanding for the big picture and go take a look in the mirror.

Dont take this as an attack. I just throw this out as something to think about. Perspective and priorities are important. How honest are people with themselves...really? Self deception is poison for the soul.

It took a little bit of work to get my wife to understand this when we had children. Its a bitter pill for most to just give up half of your household income to break the cycle. Lifestyles must be changed. Creature comfort wants need to be cut back. Priorities need to be prioritized. Its a lot easier to understand and make these decisions as early as possible but its never to late to turn it all around. It is easier for true believers that follow christianity...(why so many homeschoolers are christian based in their ideology) but anyone can do it.

First off this is a great discussion and I have enjoyed reading everyone’s opinions.

I know we are lucky.

I spent 25 years in the Army and retired and now am working full time.

My wife is a stay at home Mom and she homeschools our 2 boys.

Again I know we are able to do it because of my retirement income and because we loathe debt.

If we want to take a vacation we save for two years and pay cash. When we wanted a new car we saved for it and had planned to pay cash but they offered us 0% interest for 3 years and we paid it off in 2.

But that is my foxhole and I understand not everyone can sit in it.


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Wages no not equal purchasing power. In 1974 it was relatively easy to have a single income family. Not so much now.
Best I remember 1974 was a year of recession , you couldn’t buy a job back then.
 
First off this is a great discussion and I have enjoyed reading everyone’s opinions.

I know we are lucky.

I spent 25 years in the Army and retired and now am working full time.

My wife is a stay at home Mom and she homeschools our 2 boys.

Again I know we are able to do it because of my retirement income and because we loathe debt.

If we want to take a vacation we save for two years and pay cash. When we wanted a new car we saved for it and had planned to pay cash but they offered us 0% interest for 3 years and we paid it off in 2.

But that is my foxhole and I understand not everyone can sit in it.


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Hey neighbor. Sounds like you are doing it right. You have my respect. The force is strong with you.
 
Best I remember 1974 was a year of recession , you couldn’t buy a job back then.
I seem to recall mortgages at 11% back then, but I could be wrong.
 
I was trying to get a man in Denver Colorado to come to work for us. He is making almost 90K. He is a young man. I could not explain to him how he could live better here on 65K than he could there for 90K. He was hung up on the numbers But there ain't no free money to be had. If an area pays more for the same job it costs more to live there.

This is a grand discussion.
 
Agree 100%.

Whether it’s a hike in the minimum wage or a hike in entry starting pay, if the rate of pay does not increase that amount, across the board, for all positions, you end up with pay compression...

Folks coming into the job end up making close to or the same rate as a 15-20 year experienced employee. It is a surefire way to torpedo morale, yet it happens all the time.

I agree with you on the peril of increasing minimum wage.
As an example, if I have to increase the minimum wage from let’s say $10 to $15 per hour, I will be Looking to hire employees with $15 productivity and layoff the ones that I was paying $10 per hour which in conclusion will hurt the workers that that increase is supposed to help.

I am not an advocate of raising the minimum wage. I think that everything you to have mentioned will happen if you raised the rate to $10. I think the larger point I was trying to make is who can survive in this economy making $10 an hour. How can you own a car? Own a home? Pay for your kids college without consumer debt. Even bump that to $15 an hour. It is a really tough ask. The reason I bought up wages is because it goes to he heart of much of the consumer debt that people have. People don't have car loans just because they need new giant SUV. Yes there is over spending in the market but there are also tons of people who need a car who cannot pay cash. The need the car to earn a living and debt is the only way to do it. It turns into a viscous cycle and too often the music only stops when they die or declare bankruptcy.

In the job market the newest hire always gets hired on at a higher salary. It happens at all levels of employment not just the bottom. The sad reality is that wage increases for existing workers also do not keep up with inflation and often are not adjusted for the current employment market. They do not reward the existing employee for experience, loyalty and productivity. In times of low unemployment new hires are paid more because there is more competition for less workers. It sucks but it has always been that way. That is nothing new. I agree that it is a great way to poison the well of your current workforce.

My other thought is that if we want to apply the concept that the free labor market is properly compensating the $10 an hour worker based on their skills why do we apply a different model to people earning a middle class income? Why is the person at $10 being paid according to their value but the person making $30 is getting cheated by artificial inflation and fiat currency? If the free labor economy is "correct" at $10 an hour why is it wrong at $30? It seems to me if we feel it works for the low end it should also work for the middle and upper end. The market is setting the rate and the "value" of our work product. If we believe we are currently being under paid one should test the market and see if it is the case. Can anyone explain to me why the market is fair and correct at $10 but not $30. $50 or $100 an hour?
 
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I was trying to get a man in Denver Colorado to come to work for us. He is making almost 90K. He is a young man. I could not explain to him how he could live better here on 65K than he could there for 90K. He was hung up on the numbers But there ain't no free money to be had. If an area pays more for the same job it costs more to live there.

This is a grand discussion.

Yup cost of living is a huge variable. State tax structures, income tax, property tax, sales tax all come into play. I have moved 4 times in the last 12 years. Each time we need to evaluate the new opportunity in comparison to the existing one and others on the table. I have found that food costs are pretty nationally consistent. Some higher destiny areas have higher prices like NYC for the most part 1lb of carrots or a 3lb chicken is pretty much the same no matter where you are in the country. The big differences are the cost of housing, property taxes, income taxes and sales and use taxes.

In general the more you make a state with no income tax but higher sales tax is advantageous because a lower percentage of your income actually gets spent on consumer goods. Surplus income which is goes into savings and investment is earned free of state taxes. Property taxes are the other big killer. In some areas they are a huge chunk of home ownership.

There are good cost of living comparison calculators online that at least give you a point of comparison between 2 areas. The wild card is always "quality of living" which is a subjective value. IMHO
 
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I was trying to get a man in Denver Colorado to come to work for us. He is making almost 90K. He is a young man. I could not explain to him how he could live better here on 65K than he could there for 90K. He was hung up on the numbers But there ain't no free money to be had. If an area pays more for the same job it costs more to live there.

This is a grand discussion.

Y'all recruiting that hard for techs? He do cast work?
 
Y'all recruiting that hard for techs? He do cast work?
We send all cast work out. Dentures only for us. Folks don't understand about the cost of dentures. There is only one way to make them and the supplies are all ADA Approved. Our closest competetor is Double what we charge [Affordable] and the next closest is 5 times our fee [Aspen].
This also affects what we can pay our help. We lose alot of Assistants almost never lose a Lab Tech.
From a business end, since costs for product is Fixed, our competitors only need 1/2 and 1/5 the number of patients we have to make More net than we do. They also have 1/2 and 1/5the number of staff and supplies.
If you go to any of these places for services and go back to the Staff source, it always comes back to us. We have trained our staff to be our chief competitors. This is true all over America.
 
The sad reality is that wage increases for existing workers also do not keep up with inflation and often are not adjusted for the current employment market.
I would say that the top 50% of our employees (in terms of performance, not gross salary) get annual increases around 10%, the bottom 25% get much less because I’m less concerned about them leaving. I just gave one of out top network guys a 25% bump for the hell of it.
 
I would say that the top 50% of our employees (in terms of performance, not gross salary) get annual increases around 10%, the bottom 25% get much less because I’m less concerned about them leaving. I just gave one of out top network guys a 25% bump for the hell of it.

Your firm would be the exception not the rule or even the avg. Congrats to you and your employees.:)
 
Now I'm scared @Chdamn has found a hiding spot in my house because I've been bitching about this very subject, almost line for line, to my wife for the past couple days.
 
There are some more dimensions to this subject, and other considerations between today and 1973.

Our standards of living are much higher today. When I was growing up (single wage earner home) my parents did not have a second car until they were over 50, and that second car for my my mom was an inexpensive 6 year old Ford. Air conditioning, power steering and power brakes were the only options.

We had a TV, fridge, washer and, stove/range, dryer. First garbage disposal they were 53. I can count on one hand the number of times that we ate out per year; otherwise meals were at home. Push mower (no self drive). First electric can opener my folks were mid 50's. Late 50's for first microwave.

Shop tools were pretty basic.

Medicine and supplements - another area where we spend a lot more today than back then.

What we spend on "the basics" today is way beyond the 1973 standard of living. Internet service, streaming service, a myriad of vehicle options, cooking gadgets, probably 5X the number of clothes in our closets today versus back then, and let's not even get started on shoes. Huge selections of sporting goods, firearms, running gear, exercise gear - the list goes on and on. Computers - programs - smart phones - etc all consume more disposable income.

If someone lived as simply as the average family did back in 1973, they would have a lot more disposable income.

Yup, wages have been stagnant. This is also a tradeoff for inexpensive goods.

Education has lacked. The average high school graduate in 1973 had a better education than most college sophomore's today. Lower education also drives wage stagnation.

With the gold standard - wealth was fixed. Today, wealth is created and to some extent the size of the economy reflects this. (granted the extent of federal debt is a huge concern).
 
There are some more dimensions to this subject, and other considerations between today and 1973.

Our standards of living are much higher today. When I was growing up (single wage earner home) my parents did not have a second car until they were over 50, and that second car for my my mom was an inexpensive 6 year old Ford. Air conditioning, power steering and power brakes were the only options.

We had a TV, fridge, washer and, stove/range, dryer. First garbage disposal they were 53. I can count on one hand the number of times that we ate out per year; otherwise meals were at home. Push mower (no self drive). First electric can opener my folks were mid 50's. Late 50's for first microwave.

Shop tools were pretty basic.

Medicine and supplements - another area where we spend a lot more today than back then.

What we spend on "the basics" today is way beyond the 1973 standard of living. Internet service, streaming service, a myriad of vehicle options, cooking gadgets, probably 5X the number of clothes in our closets today versus back then, and let's not even get started on shoes. Huge selections of sporting goods, firearms, running gear, exercise gear - the list goes on and on. Computers - programs - smart phones - etc all consume more disposable income.

If someone lived as simply as the average family did back in 1973, they would have a lot more disposable income.

Yup, wages have been stagnant. This is also a tradeoff for inexpensive goods.

Education has lacked. The average high school graduate in 1973 had a better education than most college sophomore's today. Lower education also drives wage stagnation.

With the gold standard - wealth was fixed. Today, wealth is created and to some extent the size of the economy reflects this. (granted the extent of federal debt is a huge concern).

Couldn't have said this better. We have become a society of wants and instant gratification vs a society of needs (as our parents/grandparents were). The average 30-35 year olds I know own more stuff (que that George Carlin skit) than any of my grandparents or my parents for that matter.

I don't recall the band but a song popped in my head while reading this thread. "Your a slave to the system, working jobs that you hate, for that shit you don't need. Its too bad the world is based on greed."
 
I think he wrote that song about overcoming his heroine addiction. You can attach whatever meaning you want to it though. Most songs are like this.... kind of broad. I just thought of the tune with all this slave talk and blaming everyone but themselves.
 
We send all cast work out. Dentures only for us. Folks don't understand about the cost of dentures. There is only one way to make them and the supplies are all ADA Approved. Our closest competetor is Double what we charge [Affordable] and the next closest is 5 times our fee [Aspen].
This also affects what we can pay our help. We lose alot of Assistants almost never lose a Lab Tech.
From a business end, since costs for product is Fixed, our competitors only need 1/2 and 1/5 the number of patients we have to make More net than we do. They also have 1/2 and 1/5the number of staff and supplies.
If you go to any of these places for services and go back to the Staff source, it always comes back to us. We have trained our staff to be our chief competitors. This is true all over America.

We sent all our cast work to somewhere in MI. I guess our lab was a little different as we were independent of any dentist and supposedly did very high grade work for "boutique" dentists. I think we made a lot of money off of repairs (mostly made by Affordable) too, which I hated doing. I just know the bossman would hire any dumbass that could fog a mirror then fire them a month later, and he surely wasn't trying to lure in more experienced folks.
 
I think he wrote that song about overcoming his heroine addiction. You can attach whatever meaning you want to it though. Most songs are like this.... kind of broad. I just thought of the tune with all this slave talk and blaming everyone but themselves.

Gotta love these new guys that have us all figured out. Joined Wednesday and already calling out long established members.
 
I was literally reading the tax increase letter from NCDOR before reading this thread with my BP up.
Agree 100%.Folks coming into the job end up making close to or the same rate as a 15-20 year experienced employee. It is a surefire way to torpedo morale, yet it happens all the time.
This is now common in the quest for able workers.
State tax structures, income tax, property tax, sales tax all come into play.
Property taxes are the other big killer. In some areas they are a huge chunk of home ownership.
We're paying almost $500 per month in property tax! Theoretically that goes to the gubmnt indoctrination & bussing centers. We moved 15 min into Chatham and had to pay a $4,500 impact (on the school system) fee :mad:. We homeschooling 5 and now its just the two of us.

I've read that our ~70% total tax rates are why 2 income in the homes are needed, property, services, food, gas, etc, etc, etc. Read the new list our representatives are dutifully compiling.
20200809_080636.jpg 20200809_080649.jpg
Rand Paul's is still working for us, "Under the status quo, taxpayer dollars fund government schools, not education. Sen. Rand Paul's SCHOOL Act seeks to change that." https://fee.org/articles/new-rand-p...gling-families-amid-covid-19-school-closures/

Best version of "Tax Man"
 
I think he wrote that song about overcoming his heroine addiction. You can attach whatever meaning you want to it though. Most songs are like this.... kind of broad. I just thought of the tune with all this slave talk and blaming everyone but themselves.

I know what the song is about. I was joking. However the joke illustrates that idealism is great in a vacuum but it’s application in real world is harder than singing or posting about it.

I personally don’t blame anyone for my economic success or failure and I certainly have had both in my life. I agree with that sentiment of personal responsibility and accountability when it comes to most things.

In the end personal finance and economic prosperity is a mine field which has to be crossed. Lots of things can blow up along the way but if we are honest with ourselves we know for the most part we chosen where to step. My failures for the most part were poorly chosen steps by me or at least the indirect and sometimes unintended results of my choices. One has to play in the field they find themselves in to a point.

I am a minority in the minority it seems. I am ok with my economic position. My wife and I have busted our asses to get where we are. We have worked hard and hopefully will continue to prosper. I don’t begrudge others success and wish more for those who strive for more at all levels of the income spectrum.
 
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I know what the song is about. I was joking. The however also illustrates that idealism is great in a vacuum but it’s application in real world is harder than singing or posting about it.

I personally don’t blame anyone for my economic success or failure and I certainly have had both in my life. I agree with that sentiment of personal responsibility and accountability when it comes to most things.

In the end personal finance and economic prosperity is a mine field which has to be crossed. Lots of things can blow up along the way but if we are honest with ourselves we know for the most part we chosen where to step. My failures for the most part were poorly chosen steps by me or at least the indirect and sometimes unintended results of my choices.

I am a minority in the minority it seems. I am ok with my economic position. My wife and I have busted our asses to get where we are. We have worked hard and hopefully will continue to prosper. I don’t begrudge others success and wish more for those who strive for more at all levels of the income spectrum.

I wasnt pointing fingers. I was talking in a broad sense. People in general are irresponsible and reckless with their finances.
 
Watched an interview a while back where John Fogerty said run through the jungle was about gun control...Ha Ha.
 
Things are so much more expensive now. It takes a lot more money just to exist.
Back then we lived simple but never went hungry or needed cloths.
We still eat but I kill 90% of it myself. And our clothes are not all that pretty.
Housing and insurance prices are astronomical.

Things are not that much better, with all our so called improvements.

And fur prices were much better back in the 70's.
 
My test of life standards is whether I am being shot at, a roof over my head and how full my belly is at the moment. Our country is heaven on earth; was back then, is now and there is a good bet the future will be the same. Just turn on the international news and compare the world, most of those folks can’t meet my standards yet they find a way to smile and it becomes obvious what makes us constantly complain.
 
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My test of life standards is whether I am being shot at, a roof over my head and how full my belly is at the moment. Our country is heaven on earth; was back then, is now and there is a good bet the future will be the same. Just turn on the international news and compare the world, most of those folks can’t meet my standards yet they find a way to smile and it becomes obvious what makes us constantly complain.

Well said


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My test of life standards is whether I am being shot at, a roof over my head and how full my belly is at the moment. Our country is heaven on earth; was back then, is now and there is a good bet the future will be the same. Just turn on the international news and compare the world, most of those folks can’t meet my standards yet they find a way to smile and it becomes obvious what makes us constantly complain.

Mine is more health. I have been through some hard situations where I couldnt walk for days at a time from injuries. Luckily I figured it out. Health is priority one for us.... physical and mental.

People can get caught up in the rat race nonsense and talking points. I tell a lot of folks Jesus was homeless, walked the earth trying to do good, tortured and nailed to a cross... then stabbed....in his early thirties. I am 45 years old and certainly he was/is a better man than I will ever be. Everything is gravy for us. My wife and I basically live for our kids and make time for each other when we can. I am a health nut mainly so I can stick around for my two boys and be able to do things with them.
 
Mine is more health. I have been through some hard situations where I couldnt walk for days at a time from injuries. Luckily I figured it out. Health is priority one for us.... physical and mental.

People can get caught up in the rat race nonsense and talking points. I tell a lot of folks Jesus was homeless, walked the earth trying to do good, tortured and nailed to a cross... then stabbed....in his early thirties. I am 45 years old and certainly he was/is a better man than I will ever be. Everything is gravy for us. My wife and I basically live for our kids and make time for each other when we can. I am a health nut mainly so I can stick around for my two boys and be able to do things with them.
Hmmm ....
Jesus was perfection sent to earth for one reason, to die for our sins. To take all evil and sickness (sin) on himself, so that we would not have to be separated from God.

After leaving home he was a "traveling preacher", here for just a short time, why would he need a home? I am sure he never wanted for a place to sleep. Never wanted for food or clothing.
He had a treasurer who was stealing from him and nobody knew but Jesus, so I'm sure he had plenty of money.

He knew he was going to die a horrendous death for his sole purpose of salvation. I doubt a house was even a thought.

By the way, being a carpenter, he could have built a mansion, he had other things on his mind.

Just a thought.
 
Oh, debt. What a touchy subject. I'm not sure I am into the argument that some debt is good or it depends on why you have the debt. I know physicians who are paying on student loans, attending physicians making $300,000 a year or more, who are in debt up to their eyeballs because of the student loans. I think for some businesses, maybe there's an argument, I don't know, I don't have an MBA. But I think the argument is a slippery slope kind of like the theory of gateway drugs you use some and you just want more.

Consumer debt is the real killer, people living beyond their means. It is natural to want things and to want better things and nicer things, but it's not natural to buy things you cannot afford and hopes that by paying three to five times as much over time on interest that it will be worth it.

Wages, wage compression, wage inflation, those are all great topics for another thread. I could go on for days about those things.
 
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