Wheel Gun Gurus Help Me Out.... M&P Pre 10 Hates My Reloads.

wvsig

wvsig

So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish...
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I got out today for a bit. It was a total mixed bag. I shot my Yost BHP which was a dream. Tested out some Hoosier 125Gr Coated bullets loaded with 4.3gr of HP38 and they ran great. Then moved on to revolvers. Shot my S&W 15-1 and the newly acquired 65-4 with some 38 Spl with my reloads. All was well with the world and then I switched over to my M&P pre model 10 and things did not go well. Round #3 was a squib. Did not leave the barrel. I have a brass rod in the range bag and tapped it out. I then put it down and went back to the other S&Ws and they all ran fine. Went back to the Pre model 10 and squib again.

So I was shooting 158gr FMJ Precision Delta bullets. I did not have other ammo with me so I put the gun away and shot the other revolvers with no issues. When I got home I took it out back and shot some 130gr WWB. Only shot a cylinder full but they all ran no issues. So this leads me to believe this particular revolver does not like the Precision Delta bullets even though all my other guns run them fine or something is amiss. This is also a recent addition and its first time out. The gun was made in about 1946 so it was built to run 158gr FMJ right? It could be a have a bad batch of bullets but they ran in the 65-4 and the 15-1. The pulled some bullets and checked all were the proper size and weight.

I was running them under 4.1gr of HP-38 at 1.455" OAL which is in the range for a decent shooting 38 Spl according to the Hodgdon load data online. It certainly was accurate in my other guns. I am going to try to get my hands on some factory 158gr FMJ and then run some more 130gr Winchester which is all I have on hand right now. They were all loaded on a Lee Turret with a powder drum which has always been consistent. If I had to guess there is a idiot operator on the press but it is very odd. I am looking for thoughts and opinions on this. Thanks in advance. Pic of the gun in question.

pix505648344.jpg
 
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Sounds like coincidence. The squibs were there in the box. You chose to load them in that beautiful old sixgun, but they could have been loaded in the model 15. They would have done their squib thing in either gun.
Of course, the pre-10 could just be cursed. Send it to me for an Exorcism. I’ll pay the UPS Overnight, no problem 😉
 
On your squib loads, do the primer strikes on the cases look the same as on the ones that worked correctly?
 
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I'm pretty sure that the revolver didn't cause the squib loads. It was something with the ignition of the round, primer and/or powder.
 
Geezer said:
I'm pretty sure that the revolver didn't cause the squib loads. It was something with the ignition of the round, primer and/or powder.
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I am sure that it was press operator error and that shooting some factory ammo will tell the tale. I have not loaded 38 Spl in a while and my new found love of wheel guns has gotten me back into it. I am sure I will find something is incorrectly setup. As I used to say when I sold computer systems I am pretty sure it is an ID10T problem. I will look over the reloading setup and make sure it is sound before loading up any more. I am hoping to find some other factory ammo to test it with over the weekend and shoot it again Sunday or Monday.
 
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Now the issue is finding some factory 38 Spl that is not $1 a round. I would love to get a few boxes of a brand other than WWB which is the only factory 38 Spl I have on hand.
 
Using the Lee powder drum, its easy to forget to reset it between rounds. It was probably just dumb luck that both squibs ended up in the same revolver.
 
cold1 said:
Using the Lee powder drum, its easy to forget to reset it between rounds. It was probably just dumb luck that both squibs ended up in the same revolver.
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I removed the "disconnector safety" chain on mine so I don't have to reset it. So that is not the issue. There was powder in the cases. I believe that it is an issue with primer/powder interaction but I am not sure what it is.

At this point my plan is to first get at least one other kind of factory loaded ammo so I can shoot it and the Winchester 130Gr that I have. If they all run then it tells me something is up with my reloads.

From there I will shoot the remaining reloads in other guns before loading any others. If they all run it might have just been a fluke.

Then I will load a small batch of new reloads for the M&P and test them. From there I can narrow down is it a primer/powder or bullet issue. I was using S&B SPP and I have some Winchester and CCI can also try. If I get a squib then it could be something is up with the projectile which are Precision Delta which are normally really good.

Maybe this gun just does not like that projectile and I will have to switch to something else for this one. I am going to try to take it step by step and root out the cause. I am sure eventually I will figure out what this reloading monkey messed up and correct it.
 
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wvsig said:
Now the issue is finding some factory 38 Spl that is not $1 a round. I would love to get a few boxes of a brand other than WWB which is the only factory 38 Spl I have on hand.
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Here ya go. Act quick while in stock.

.38 Special Ammo for Sale | Norma Shooting

Take a look at our selection of .38 Special ammunition. We carry and sell the highest quality of .38 Special ammo on the market. View our sales and inventory today!
normashooting.com normashooting.com
 
Geezer said:
Here ya go. Act quick while in stock.

.38 Special Ammo for Sale | Norma Shooting

Take a look at our selection of .38 Special ammunition. We carry and sell the highest quality of .38 Special ammo on the market. View our sales and inventory today!
normashooting.com normashooting.com
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Shows out of stock. I have notify me when it’s back in stock but I did not get an email. That is by far the best price these days!
 
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wvsig said:
I removed the "disconnector safety" chain on mine so I don't have to reset it. So that is not the issue. There was powder in the cases. I believe that it is an issue with primer/powder interaction but I am not sure what it is.
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Both cartridges had powder left in them after the primer detonated and the projectile was pushed out of the case and into the lands?
 
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wvsig said:
I removed the "disconnector safety" chain on mine so I don't have to reset it. So that is not the issue. There was powder in the cases.
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I get what you're saying here: 'there must be powder in there because I disabled the device that shuts off the powder drop'

Not quite. Murphy happens.

If you don't see the powder in the case on every single cartridge you load, you can't be sure there's powder in the case.
 
Catfish said:
I get what you're saying here: 'there must be powder in there because I disabled the device that shuts off the powder drop'

Not quite. Murphy happens.

If you don't see the powder in the case on every single cartridge you load, you can't be sure there's powder in the case.
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I totally get what you’re saying. All I was pointing out is that I don’t have to reset it each time. But it is certainly possible no powder dropped.
 
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cold1 said:
Both cartridges had powder left in them after the primer detonated and the projectile was pushed out of the case and into the lands?
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There was no powder still in the case that I noticed after I fired the rounds. When I meant to say was I believe that they had powder in them when fired. How much and if it actually burned effectively is the question.
 
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So we have an answer and as everyone predicted 2 different kinds of factory ammo ran without a problem. I shot 50 rounds of Winchester 130Gr and 20 rounds of Fiocchi 158Gr FMJ. All of them fired without a problem and were as accurate as the shooter. I am happy the gun is not the problem. I can accept that I screwed up on the press. My guess is as I break down the rounds I am going to find they are under charged.

So tomorrow I have to break down about 150 rounds of 38 Spl. I broke down the press and reset it up. I cleaned out the auto drum. I am looking to bump up the charge to 4.2 Gr of HP-38 and an OAL of 1.445" I ran some test drops and it consistently was dropping 4.2 Gr. I am going to run 10 rounds measuring each one with this load and then test them. If all goes well this will become my standard load. It matches up with a listed load on the Hodgon site for 158 XTP bullet and should be good for FMJ right?

Another pic of the fine beauty.

pix374654689 v2.jpg
 
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I just started loading .38spl, but something I made note of was the case length varied quite a bit when I measured the mixed headstamp brass I acquired. Once properly set up the crimping die will set a crimp at a specific mechanical height limited by the lever being fully down. If the cases are a little long the crimp will be hard/tight, if the cases are too short the crimp might not even happen. Because of this the instructions on my dies say to trim all the brass to the same length before loading so it's consistent. Is it possible you were getting some bullet pull from cases that didn't crimp well? Then the pulled bullets lacked pressure to clear the barrel?
 
Auto drum has a flaw. Since its a combined flare + powder drop it can be inconsistent if the brass is not all exact same length or strength. Might be your problem. Put an index mark on the drum and the body of the dropper so you can see each time if it rotates fully.
 
Better yet, given the quality of your weapons, get a Dillon 550C or a 1050 and quit working with Chinesium. You get what you pay for, and the Dillon let’s you place an LED above the shell plate so you can visually verify the powder level. C’mon man!
 
Amanda4461 said:
Better yet, given the quality of your weapons, get a Dillon 550C or a 1050 and quit working with Chinesium. You get what you pay for, and the Dillon let’s you place an LED above the shell plate so you can visually verify the powder level. C’mon man!
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I have a 750XL but it is set up for 9mm with the case feeder which is my main caliber. Until recently I was not reloading much 38 SPL. I like the Lee for smaller runs. I also have turrets for different calibers so I can run 200 45 ACP and the 200 380 auto with a 10 second change over. Different tools for different tasks. If I keep shooting enough 38 SPL I will get an additional toolhead for the 750 but for now I am looking to make the Lee work. I have loaded 10,000+ on the Lee.
 
Catfish said:
Auto drum has a flaw. Since its a combined flare + powder drop it can be inconsistent if the brass is not all exact same length or strength. Might be your problem. Put an index mark on the drum and the body of the dropper so you can see each time if it rotates fully.
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That is a great idea. Thanks
 
wvsig said:
Did not see a difference in the primer strikes.
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It wouldn’t be the primer strike. If it went off, it worked. I’m betting there was no powder in the squibs. I’ve had a few issues with Lee drums. Load 300 perfect and for some reason just doesn’t drop the powder on a load. I went to the disk powder drop on my Lee and have no problems. I think it was just a coincidence that it happened on the m10. Throw that Drum away and get a disk drop. It’s virtually fool proof.
 
Amanda4461 said:
Better yet, given the quality of your weapons, get a Dillon 550C or a 1050 and quit working with Chinesium. You get what you pay for, and the Dillon let’s you place an LED above the shell plate so you can visually verify the powder level. C’mon man!
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I’ve got a Dillon 650 that I use for 38 and 9mm. I also have a Lee Classic Turret that I load at least 10 other calibers including 223, 308 and 30-30. It’s loaded over 10k rounds and loads As good as my Dillon, just not as fast. I prefer a Lee dies and even use Lee Dies on my Dillon. Absolutely nothing wrong with the quality of Lee products With the exception of the drum powder drop. It is a True POS and switching it to the disk drop was the best money I’ve ever spent. The Lee is also easier to use with small calibers like 32acp.
 
Etruett said:
Throw that Drum away and get a disk drop. It’s virtually fool proof.
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It's funny to read that because I could never get them to work right and considered the Autodrum - quirks and all - to be an improvement. The disk thing would drift, it would leak, it would drop half charges... i had to mess with it non stop. If you're gonna switch, spend the money on something nice.
 
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Well I spent a good portion of the morning breaking down 150+ rounds by hand using and impact bullet puller. Ammo Monkey at his finest. There was powder in every single case but I could not accurately measure it because the impact bullet puller spills powder as you use it.

I was able to reset up the press. Checking everything out. I went with 4.2gr of HP 38 and a medium roll crimp in the cannelure of the Precision Delta bullet. This left the OAL longer than 1.445. Ended up closer to 1.485" I measured each charge out of the Lee Drum and they all were 4.2gr. I fired 6 test rounds and they all ran. I am going to load up a few more and hit the range sometime next week.
 
Catfish said:
It's funny to read that because I could never get them to work right and considered the Autodrum - quirks and all - to be an improvement. The disk thing would drift, it would leak, it would drop half charges... i had to mess with it non stop. If you're gonna switch, spend the money on something nice.
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Wow! I have 2. One I change the discs and the other has the micrometer adjustable insert. While the disc may vary 1/10th a grain depending on the powder, I have found both to work great with no problems. It’s funny what works for some and not for others. I owned 3 of the drums and 2 of them wouldn’t stay set and the 3rd would random not drop powder here and there. At the same time, my Dillon won’t meter Unique close enough for me to trust. I’ve had it very 3-4/10ths
from case to case but it meters Universal perfectly and it is more flakey. I know several guys that use Unique in Dillon’s and have perfect dropd. I guess the correct answer is use what works for you.
 
wvsig said:
The gun was made in about 1946 so it was built to run 158gr FMJ right?
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Hi, I am curious about the age of your gun. I am not the ultimate expert on these matters, but the box appears to be more recent than 1946. Bangor Punta did not take over until in the 1960's. A pre-10 would be a 5 screw gun. There is not a good angle, but I can't make out a front screw, but it certainly could be there. How did you date it? Does the serial number begin with an S or a C? Thanks, and it is a beautiful gun...
 
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stiab said:
Hi, I am curious about the age of your gun. I am not the ultimate expert on these matters, but the box appears to be more recent than 1946. Bangor Punta did not take over until in the 1960's. A pre-10 would be a 5 screw gun. There is not a good angle, but I can't make out a front screw, but it certainly could be there. How did you date it? Does the serial number begin with an S or a C? Thanks, and it is a beautiful gun...
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S serial number. It is a 5 screw. The box is not original to the gun. I have confirm it shipped in 1946 by cross referencing it with other “dated” guns and it was confirmed by known collector with an extensive database of lettered guns.

The original box would’ve been maroon. When I acquired it it came in the blue Punta box for whatever reason.
 
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wvsig said:
The box is not original to the gun.
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Thanks, that explains it. The blue boxes like that one sell pretty well on ebay. I put one out last year for a 4" M10, no vapor paper or docs, and it went for over $50.
 
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stiab said:
Thanks, that explains it. The blue boxes like that one sell pretty well on ebay. I put one out last year for a 4" M10, no vapor paper or docs, and it went for over $50.
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Yeah I have seen that. It adds no value to the gun I have but it might add value to someone else.
 
A bit of a side note for folks who want to double check powder charges on their progressive presses. It was mentioned above that you can add a light to the Dillon.

Well, let me add a little bit here.
There are several light systems out there,, but I found one a few years back that is, in my opinion, the best overall. And they make them for several presses.

Check into "KMS Squared" lights.
Top quality, and well worth the money. AND,, it doesn't go though holes or whatever. Shjnes light all around the loading area. Veteran owned & operated,, I recommend them for the quality in their light system and how well it works AND is "out of the way." www dot kmssquared dot com
 
contender said:
A bit of a side note for folks who want to double check powder charges on their progressive presses. It was mentioned above that you can add a light to the Dillon.

Well, let me add a little bit here.
There are several light systems out there,, but I found one a few years back that is, in my opinion, the best overall. And they make them for several presses.

Check into "KMS Squared" lights.
Top quality, and well worth the money. AND,, it doesn't go though holes or whatever. Shjnes light all around the loading area. Veteran owned & operated,, I recommend them for the quality in their light system and how well it works AND is "out of the way." www dot kmssquared dot com
Click to expand...
I use an inline fabrication light kit on my 750XL
 
wvsig said:
I got out today for a bit. It was a total mixed bag. I shot my Yost BHP which was a dream. Tested out some Hoosier 125Gr Coated bullets loaded with 4.3gr of HP38 and they ran great. Then moved on to revolvers. Shot my S&W 15-1 and the newly acquired 65-4 with some 38 Spl with my reloads. All was well with the world and then I switched over to my M&P pre model 10 and things did not go well. Round #3 was a squib. Did not leave the barrel. I have a brass rod in the range bag and tapped it out. I then put it down and went back to the other S&Ws and they all ran fine. Went back to the Pre model 10 and squib again.

So I was shooting 158gr FMJ Precision Delta bullets. I did not have other ammo with me so I put the gun away and shot the other revolvers with no issues. When I got home I took it out back and shot some 130gr WWB. Only shot a cylinder full but they all ran no issues. So this leads me to believe this particular revolver does not like the Precision Delta bullets even though all my other guns run them fine or something is amiss. This is also a recent addition and its first time out. The gun was made in about 1946 so it was built to run 158gr FMJ right? It could be a have a bad batch of bullets but they ran in the 65-4 and the 15-1. The pulled some bullets and checked all were the proper size and weight.

I was running them under 4.1gr of HP-38 at 1.455" OAL which is in the range for a decent shooting 38 Spl according to the Hodgdon load data online. It certainly was accurate in my other guns. I am going to try to get my hands on some factory 158gr FMJ and then run some more 130gr Winchester which is all I have on hand right now. They were all loaded on a Lee Turret with a powder drum which has always been consistent. If I had to guess there is a idiot operator on the press but it is very odd. I am looking for thoughts and opinions on this. Thanks in advance. Pic of the gun in question.

View attachment 445331
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The early guns were factory sighted in with a 158gr lead RN bullet running probably 700-800fps
 
That is one beautiful wheel gun, with a decent box to boot! Treasure it. I have a similar pre-10 K frame in nickel. The Nickel has lost it's gloss and she now wears real stag grips. I walked by that gun a dozen times before I bought it. I don't know what it was, but that gun spoke to me ever so quietly, "take me home". Can't beat an old Smith like that.
 
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