Where to zero short AR?

thrillhill

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Picked up a used AR (5.56) handgun with what measures as a 9 inch barrel. I guess. That's with an A2 style flash suppressor attached.

So it's really only a 7.5 inch barrel? Not sure how that length would be colloquially described.

I put an older Holosun red dot on it.

I'm not sure yet exactly what role this firearm would fill but I assume that combo would be capable from 0-100 yards at least.

I'll be using M855 ammunition.

The barrel is stamped .223 Wylde 1:7 SS.

What distance should I zero at and why?

Any help would be appreciated.

Math and Friday evening don't go hand in hand for me.
 
I'm fortunate to have a 200 yard range at the house.

And I have several ARs with red dots, most of which I chose the 50/200 yard option when zeroing.

However I've never had one with a barrel this short.

So I guess I'm asking if there is a "general rule of thumb" for these shorter barrels, similar to the 50/200 and 25/300 options that are commonly discussed?

I think with this length barrel, I'd like to mainly think of it as a 0-100 gun, meaning I can aim center mass from anywhere within those ranges and have the least amount of deviation possible.

I can figure it out, start with a 25 yard zero and then test the other distances.

But the 50/200 rule of thumb has saved me a lot of ammo over the years when getting set up.

I'm sure that info is out there somewhere, but I don't generally cruise the "national boards" anymore. I'm too old for ARfcom. LOL
 
My gut tells me you’ll be around 2300fps and that a 25 yard zero would make sense. That would put you pretty close to what I zero my 7.62x39 stuff at. Going from memory, you’d be on at 25yd, about 4 inches high at 100, then back on at 225yds or so.

But then I think a little harder and see that your longest expected distance would be 100 yards. So now I figure you should just zero at 100yards. Now you’ll be basically sight over bore height low at 25, an inch or so low at 50, and dead on at 100. The downside is you’ll drop like a stone past 100.
 
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My gut tells me you’ll be around 2300fps and that a 25 yard zero would make sense. That would put you pretty close to what I zero my 7.62x39 stuff at. Going from memory, you’d be on at 25yd, about 4 inches high at 100, then back on at 225yds or so.

But then I think a little harder and see that your longest expected distance would be 100 yards. So now I figure you should just zero at 100yards. Now you’ll be basically sight over bore height low at 25, an inch or so low at 50, and dead on at 100. The downside is you’ll drop like a stone past 100.

Yeah, I might be messing up a little by sticking to that 100 yard notion.

Just because I HOPE/THINK that I would restrict it's use to 100, doesn't mean that I should choke it's capability.

I think 4 inches high at 100 would be just fine.
 
I'm fortunate to have a 200 yard range at the house.

And I have several ARs with red dots, most of which I chose the 50/200 yard option when zeroing.

However I've never had one with a barrel this short.

So I guess I'm asking if there is a "general rule of thumb" for these shorter barrels, similar to the 50/200 and 25/300 options that are commonly discussed?

I think with this length barrel, I'd like to mainly think of it as a 0-100 gun, meaning I can aim center mass from anywhere within those ranges and have the least amount of deviation possible.

I can figure it out, start with a 25 yard zero and then test the other distances.

But the 50/200 rule of thumb has saved me a lot of ammo over the years when getting set up.

I'm sure that info is out there somewhere, but I don't generally cruise the "national boards" anymore. I'm too old for ARfcom. LOL
All mine (centerfire) get the 50/200 treatment. Not always verified at 200 since I have very few magnified optics, but they’re all sighted in at 50.
 
I tend to do red dot zeros at 50 yards myself, since I'm typically not worried about dialing for elevation at distance with those (if I am I do 100yd zero). Given how short your barrel is for that gun, 50yds is still what makes the most sense to me.
 
All mine (centerfire) get the 50/200 treatment. Not always verified at 200 since I have very few magnified optics, but they’re all sighted in at 50.

Yeah, my only magnified optics on ARs are ACOGs and of course I just do what Trijicon tells me to as far as zeroing. LOL
 
Yeah, I might be messing up a little by sticking to that 100 yard notion.

Just because I HOPE/THINK that I would restrict it's use to 100, doesn't mean that I should choke it's capability.

I think 4 inches high at 100 would be just fine.

and like you, I also stick to the 50/200 zero for all of my 556 stuff. The reason I suggest considering the 25yd zero is the reduced velocity from the just got out of the pool barrel. I’ll see if I can find a couple numbers and run them.
 
I used a range finder to check some distances at the cabin and around the house. 35-40 yards was a frequent distance with openings and lanes. So I am experimenting with the 36 yard zero idea. I have shot it to 100 yards and easily hit steel, i need to see how it is at other distances.
 
It's funny, I've kind of gotten lazy with this stuff as my acquisitions increased over the years.

When I only had a couple ARs it was super serious and I would read up on stuff and shoot the crap out of em until I was comfortable with the setup.

Now it feels almost a chore to set them up. Getting them is fun, but then I eventually have to get to work on them.

No reason not to buy when a deal comes along. But no reason for them to sit around not prepped either.
 
The zero range would be indicated by 0.0 at the range (100 then 50 then 25). Surprisingly the 25 yard zero would be nearly 6 inches high at 100. All this assumes 2300fps at the muzzle with a 2.8in sight height over bore. M855 BC was entered.

I think after looking at the data, I'd go with a 50 yard zero. 🤷‍♂️
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@Frack N Cylons , use the MRD (MBPR) function in Strelok with a max +\- of @thrillhill stated 4” tolerance

That’ll get you the optimum zero distance and max range where you’d be no more than 4” +/- through the entire path.

For example, I zero’d my 300BLK at 33yds to get a 2” +\- out to 178yds
 
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All non-magnified rifle optics get a 50 yard zero mostly because it's what I know and what I'm accustomed to. The different holdovers, zero distance debate is kinda silly considering if you just pick one and learn it, then it makes little difference.
 
Me and my deer hunting buddy are sighting in our rifles next weekend if the weather cooperates. We sight in at fifty yards because it is rare where we hunt at to have a shot much longer than that because of lack of open area. 50 yards is my rule of thumb for long guns around here. I'm not going to be taking those shots over 200 yards in the densely populated I call home no matter if I'm going to be target shooting, hunting or whatever.
 
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I have always been of the mindset of 50 yd zeros is the "sweet spot", like a lot have already pointed out.
 
Me and my deer hunting buddy are sighting in our rifles next weekend if the weather cooperates.

That's part of my issue with wanting to zero with as few rounds as possible.

Although I'm blessed to have a nice place to shoot at the house, it's also part of my deer hunting area.

I've got two that need the optics zeroed. A "9" inch and a 20 inch. The 20 inch is simple enough, I know that length inside out. But the 9 inch is gonna be my first with that length.

Based on the info above, I believe I'll zero at 30 and then check from 0-100 and see if I like it. If I don't I'll go back to 50 and reset.



The only time I've ever zeroed a dot on an AR for less than 50 was when I did this 45 degree offset mount. I zeroed that one at 25 in case I needed to shoot closer/quicker than the ACOG would comfortably allow. That particular setup worked exactly as it should since I was able to use both optics to good effect on the same hunt, within 10 minutes of each other.


20201117_071728 (2).jpg


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I think this 9 inch one I just got will end up in one of the farm trucks in a semi-permanent capacity. If I like what it does from 0-100 I can spend more time with it after deer season is over.
 
The cat squirrel photo is a "Hall of Famer" in my opinion and should framed in bronze!
What is the story on that? You took the bobcat down while he was taking the squirrel out?

 
That is a great story! thanks for sharing.
 
I use a 50 yard zero on every AR that is equipped with a RDS or iron sights, the ability to get center mass hits from point blank to 200 yards is exactly what I want from my “battle” rifles, the beauty of the 50/200 yard zero is that barrel length doesn’t drastically affect your “hold” when you’re looking for “minute of bad guy” accuracy at typical “combat” ranges based on my experience shooting 2/3 gun matches, granted I am just your your average schmuck who enjoys shooting and have absolutely zero real life combat experience, but I’ve taken several gun fighting classes and I can definitely say, without question that a 1/4 to 1/2” difference in point of aim to point of impact isn’t going to alter the end result (in my opinion of course) of a gun fight when you’re talking about 0 to 200 yards, if 2-3 center mass (or melon shots) hits doesn’t stop the threat, I’ll have bigger issues to deal with.
 
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I'm going to offer up an opinion that's not popular here. There will be name calling and objects thrown.

But, I fear not, for I wear the Belt of Truth...
b7b2952570a8214ad3191a9dde36a008.jpg


The 10" and shorter barrel AR's with ball are are 50yd guns. This is based on the required velocity of fragmentation, the major wounding mechanism of ball ammo, which is 2700fps. Otherwise, you have .22 penetration only, which an above chart demonstrates. And the problem is worse with M855 vs M193.
This issue is one of the reasons for complaints by the military of inadequate stopping power, a combination of 14" M4 barrels and M855 ammo. M855 ammo requires more velocity to fragment as it was designed for penetration, but going to the M4 barrels reduced velocity. The combination reduced the effective range of the system.
If I were going to use a shorty AR, I would either use M193 or one of the 75-77gr OTM rounds. M193 starts at a higher velocity, but, even the M193 rounds loses a lot of velocity in short barrels. The OTM rounds depend on expansion rather than fragmentation and can operate at a lower velocity.
Yes, the rounds not fragmenting will still kill you, but how quickly? Every second your enemy stays functional is a second they can continue shooting at you. For an analogy, hitting a deer with a broad head vs a field point. How much run or fight will one have compared to the other?

From Ammo Oracle...

Introduction​


Testing by combat surgeon Col. Martin L. Fackler, MD (USA Medical Corps, retired), determined that M193 and M855 bullets need to strike flesh at 2,700 feet per second in order to reliably fragment. Between 2,500 fps and 2,700 fps, the bullet may or may not fragment and below 2,500 fps, no significant fragmentation is likely to occur. If there isn't enough velocity to cause fragmentation, the result is a deep, 22 caliber hole, except an area where the yawing occurred, where the diameter of the hole grows briefly to the length of the bullet.

M193 Gel Tests

M193 rounds after close encounters with ballistic gelatin at various velocities. (Fackler)



Assuming true M193 or M855 ammo, velocity is the key. Velocity is dependent on barrel length and environmental conditions.

As barrel length increases, the bullet is propelled faster by the expanding gasses in the barrel, imparting more velocity on the bullet, resulting in a longer range before a fired bullet drops below 2700 fps. A shorter barrel imparts less velocity, and therefore the bullet has less range.

Temperature, altitude and humidity are other factors. As temperature or altitude increases, air becomes less dense and bullets travel faster. Contrary to common conceptions, as humidity increases air also becomes less dense and helps bullets retain velocity.

It is important, then, to keep in mind that any statistics given can only be approximate and can be affected by a wide range of factors. But as a baseline, these numbers are what you could expect for 75° F, 25% humidity, at sea level, from various barrel lengths:



Distance to 2700 fps20" Barrel16" Barrel14.5" Barrel11.5" Barrel
M193190-200m140-150m95-100m40-45m
M855140-150m90-95m45-50m12-15m





I'm reminded of a video I saw of an enemy combatant in the sand box. He was preparing to fire and RPG when he was struck by multiple rounds which penetrated his body and struck the ground behind him. He stumbled, but then resumed his attempt to fire the weapon, until he took a round to the head.

Just sayin'...
 
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If I'm limited to 25y, I zero it 1" low and it should be pretty dang close to POA = POI at 50y. At least enough for me to be content until I have a chance to take it further.
 
I'm going to offer up an opinion that's not popular here. There will be name calling and objects thrown.

But, I fear not, for I wear the Belt of Truth...
b7b2952570a8214ad3191a9dde36a008.jpg


The 10" and shorter barrel AR's with ball are are 50yd guns. This is based on the required velocity of fragmentation, the major wounding mechanism of ball ammo, which is 2700fps. Otherwise, you have .22 penetration only, which an above chart demonstrates. And the problem is worse with M855 vs M193.
This issue is one of the reasons for complaints by the military of inadequate stopping power, a combination of 14" M4 barrels and M855 ammo. M855 ammo requires more velocity to fragment as it was designed for penetration, but going to the M4 barrels reduced velocity. The combination reduced the effective range of the system.
If I were going to use a shorty AR, I would either use M193 or one of the 75-77gr OTM rounds. M193 starts at a higher velocity, but, even the M193 rounds loses a lot of velocity in short barrels. The OTM rounds depend on expansion rather than fragmentation and can operate at a lower velocity.
Yes, the rounds not fragmenting will still kill you, but how quickly? Every second your enemy stays functional is a second they can continue shooting at you. For an analogy, hitting a deer with a broad head vs a field point. How much run or fight will one have compared to the other?

From Ammo Oracle...

Introduction​


Testing by combat surgeon Col. Martin L. Fackler, MD (USA Medical Corps, retired), determined that M193 and M855 bullets need to strike flesh at 2,700 feet per second in order to reliably fragment. Between 2,500 fps and 2,700 fps, the bullet may or may not fragment and below 2,500 fps, no significant fragmentation is likely to occur. If there isn't enough velocity to cause fragmentation, the result is a deep, 22 caliber hole, except an area where the yawing occurred, where the diameter of the hole grows briefly to the length of the bullet.

M193 Gel Tests

M193 rounds after close encounters with ballistic gelatin at various velocities. (Fackler)



Assuming true M193 or M855 ammo, velocity is the key. Velocity is dependent on barrel length and environmental conditions.

As barrel length increases, the bullet is propelled faster by the expanding gasses in the barrel, imparting more velocity on the bullet, resulting in a longer range before a fired bullet drops below 2700 fps. A shorter barrel imparts less velocity, and therefore the bullet has less range.

Temperature, altitude and humidity are other factors. As temperature or altitude increases, air becomes less dense and bullets travel faster. Contrary to common conceptions, as humidity increases air also becomes less dense and helps bullets retain velocity.

It is important, then, to keep in mind that any statistics given can only be approximate and can be affected by a wide range of factors. But as a baseline, these numbers are what you could expect for 75° F, 25% humidity, at sea level, from various barrel lengths:



Distance to 2700 fps20" Barrel16" Barrel14.5" Barrel11.5" Barrel
M193190-200m140-150m95-100m40-45m
M855140-150m90-95m45-50m12-15m





I'm reminded of a video I saw of an enemy combatant in the sand box. He was preparing to fire and RPG when he was struck by multiple rounds which penetrated his body and struck the ground behind him. He stumbled, but then resumed his attempt to fire the weapon, until he took a round to the head.

Just sayin'...
Thanks to @georgel for typing this out. I was just going to say that short barrel with 5.56 is a recipe for icepick wounds out past 50 yards. He brought the facts and backed them up. This is why I like .30 cal and had gotten out of 5.56 for several years.
 
@georgel As you touched on with the OTM, if you're using hollowpoint or frangible ammo, tumbling/fragmenting isn't the main mechanism of injury and none of that matters. According to this calculator, if I'm using it right,
a 10.3 using a 55 grain defense load at 2800 fps(heavier bullets or hotter defense loads will perform even better at range, this is the worst case) zeroed at 225 yards will be: 2.6 inches high at 100 yards, 1.87 inches low at 250, 7.42 inches low at and 300, and expand at any velocity you can hit with it at. That's completely reasonable, and not in any way limited to being a 50 yard gun.

Check out this chart:
Yes, I believe that's what I said, "The OTM rounds depend on expansion rather than fragmentation and can operate at a lower velocity."

But, there are still limiting factors. For example, some of the lightweight "varmint" loads will expand spectacularly, but will exhibit shallow penetration. Which, defeats the purpose of what is needed.
Performance of the 75-77gr OTM rounds in the field has been good out of short barrels or long distances, as also with other "premium" rounds, such as the Hornady TAP or Federal Bonded Bear Claw. But, they are more difficult to stack deep, due to cost. Which is why it matters. M855 and M193 do work as long as you maintain velocity requirements. The OP mentioned wanting to use M855. Which is fine within it's usable range. It's more a matter of paying attention to what you're doing to be most effective, rather than being right or wrong.

iu
 
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Performance of the 75-77gr OTM rounds in the field has been good out of short barrels or long distances, as also with other "premium" rounds, such as the Hornady TAP or Federal Bonded Bear Claw. But, they are more difficult to stack deep, due to cost. Which is why it matters. M855 and M193 do work as long as you maintain velocity requirements.

Not trying to hijack the thread here, but this is the beauty of reloading and why I consider it invaluable.

When you cannot find a commercially available cartridge you want with the performance you desire, there’s a pretty good chance that with the proper amount of R&D/testing, you can manufacture it yourself.
 
Not trying to hijack the thread here, but this is the beauty of reloading and why I consider it invaluable.

When you cannot find a commercially available cartridge you want with the performance you desire, there’s a pretty good chance that with the proper amount of R&D/testing, you can manufacture it yourself.
I am so close to buying a block of gelatin.
 
I am so close to buying a block of gelatin.

Same here. I have some 75s (Speer Gold Dot) loaded up to 5.56 pressures that clocked great out of a 10.3” and I’d like to see what the gel would tell at, say, 200.
 
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Same here. I have some 75s (Speer Gold Dot) loaded up to 5.56 pressures that clocked great out of a 10.3” and I’d like to see what the gel would tell at, say, 200.
That is a nice round. If you do decide to get some gelatin let me know. I’d love to come watch in person.
 
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