Just saw this in my feed and it was pretty eye opening. Also makes for a good weekend arguementerary Thread.
Which caliber is best? This may surprise you
- Thread starter Goofyfoot2001
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The one you carry is the best! A hand cannon left at home is just that...at home. I have seen the video and I will admit I often times carry a 380 for the convenience of carrying it. BUT, It beats having my Glock 19 at home in safe.
On the other hand this video is really neat and I enjoyed it when I watched it the other week.
On the other hand this video is really neat and I enjoyed it when I watched it the other week.
The only thing I really take issue to is the concept that a .22 isn't a good "bug out gun" based only on its ability to stop two legged predators. While self defense is and will be critical, the long gun may also be required to fit other tasks, like gathering food. Shoot a squirrel with a .223 and you get a fur puff. A shotgun? A box of 25 shells and a box of 500 .22lr are the same size and not that much different in weight. So, yeah, its not the best at stopping bad guys, but it is pretty darn good at putting food over a fire. So one would need to ask themselves, "Do I think I will be shooting people or shooting animals".
Interesting video. Well produced and informative. Though I did feel like I was in a scene from Red a Dead Redemption from the background music.
Based on watching "alone" and the limited game they seem to find as expert survivalists, and thinking of how many desperate people would be walking around after SHTF pretty much everywhere, I'm going with the former.
Never watched alone, but Ill take your word for it. My point was the .22 being completely discounted based only on self defense use, and not "survival" use.
Now, in my opinion, "bugging out" means more "getting where I am safe" so, yeah, a large caliber is probably better because its trying to get from point A to point B without getting made dead. For the "huntin" to start, you gotta get there in the first place.
Slip a 40 grain .22 long rifle in someone's eye socket or ear and suddenly the self defense concept takes on a whole new meaning.
georgel
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Agreed. Noise is a factor as well. Personally, a .22 is the most efficient caliber out there. You just have to use it according to your need. His work is based on statistical analysis of how .22 has been used by most people in most instances, not by focused use, like sniping.
Still, good info though.
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The 22lr blunder has us skipping right past a discussion of the merits of his other observations... makes me wonder if he did that on purpose?
Accuracy is king.
A well placed .22 to the “eye” as mentioned above, trumps a miss with a .454 casull.
Carry what you are most accurate with, under pressure of course, which usually turns out to be the weapon that you are the most familiar with.
A well placed .22 to the “eye” as mentioned above, trumps a miss with a .454 casull.
Carry what you are most accurate with, under pressure of course, which usually turns out to be the weapon that you are the most familiar with.
I more think it has to do with most of us here are a bit more "seasoned" in the gun world than to believe all of the caliber hype. Most of us are of the "precision > caliber" camp. As said, if you don't hit, it doesn't matter what you are shooting. So we all kinda already felt that "caliber isn't as important as most people think" so it was just confirmation for the most part.
There was no 22LR blunder. The data says it doesn’t work as well in SD type scenarios. Didn’t claim anything else.
And really, I was pretty surprised. That data was not about USPSA Masters doing shot placement. It was just about hits, and they pretty much worked. 1.2 shotgun hits, 1.4 rifle, or 1.8 non-mouse pistol gets you about 90% incapacitated odds (from memory, don’t quote me). That is a lot more effective than I expected for all three.
And really, I was pretty surprised. That data was not about USPSA Masters doing shot placement. It was just about hits, and they pretty much worked. 1.2 shotgun hits, 1.4 rifle, or 1.8 non-mouse pistol gets you about 90% incapacitated odds (from memory, don’t quote me). That is a lot more effective than I expected for all three.
DrPhudd
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Those are real world numbers. That likely groups people that decided not to fight after getting shot in the toe as "incapacitded"
He claimed that because 22 rimfire calibers performed poorly in his study they would be a bad choice for a SHTF/survival firearm. I'd wager that close to 0% of the shootings in his study happened in a SHTF/survival scenario. And if that's true his data do not support his conclusion.
Based on what I imagine the “world gone to crap” will be like. My choice between .22 and .223 would be an easy one.
If I was just going on a squirrel hunt during normal times, I’d probably carry a .22 for a handful of reasons.
If during a (bad) time of feeding my family, squirrels will be some of the lowest hanging fruits and gone the quickest. Bigger animals and animals with a high sense of awareness will be target.
The .223 has an ability to kill at longer distances and kill more effectively then its little cousin. A squirrel shot at a hundred and eighty yards still looks like a squirrel but a deer shot at the same distance looks like a feast.
The .22 is a fine gun to take your kid to the woods on a sunny autumn day and whack a few tree rats but when things get tough and distance and size become a factor, the .223 is a better all around gun.
And you may have to kill something that is trying to kill you, distance is your friend.
This of course is if you can only have one and that thought is something I hope to never entertain.
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Very good points about the size of quarry v caliber. 1 .223 taking out a deer at 100 yards beats dozens of squirrels. And I suppose if you know what you are doing a head shoot on smaller stuff with a .223 would still leave the mean intact. All the while keeping the "self defense" side intact.
Well, ok. Which is more important in SHTF - SD or hunting squirrels? I choose SD. I don’t want to be the hunted. “Survival”, like subsistence living on your own in the woods, is a fantasy if SHTF. There aren’t enough woods or squirrels.
OP
I feel better about my 380
I was a little amazed at the results about the .357 even though I know for a fact how effective they can be on a human target. I've just never seen them compared to other calibers in that manner..
Agree totally. Also paramount for a get home/bug out caliber is the ability to pack enough ammo, and 22lr or even 22mag is lightyears ahead of any centerfire caliber. The drawback is its not going to be as reliable, but I expect the chances of a malfunction at a critical time is small in comparison to other Murphy-isms waiting for their chance to make best laid plans go awry.
I don't compare the destructive power of 22 rimfire to centerfire calibers one to one because it is so damn easy to crank out more accurate rapid fire due to negligible recoil, so I give them a little more respect than their numbers would command on their own.
In a bona-fide shtf scenario where people realize that professional medical attention is not gonna happen I think it levels the playing field somewhat. Any gunshot wound is likely to be fatal, and even if you hit the BG in the finger I expect his attention will be on preserving his chances of survival rather than pressing the attack. Of course that's assuming the BG is rational.
Another reason I think rimfire fits for shtf defense is that what most of us want to do is disengage, and being able to put out large amounts of relatively accurate fire helps you do that. Both the light weight and low recoil of 22 rimfire are well suited.
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And worse come to worst, people are made of meat.
I'll take Clint Smith's quote about this subject..
Handguns put holes in people
Rifles put holes through people
Shotguns put shit on the wall
Handguns put holes in people
Rifles put holes through people
Shotguns put shit on the wall
I think if 32-20, 32 H&R mag, 327 fed mag, had been in the category the 32 would have less failures to stop.
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They had the numbers for one shot stops that were not fatal.
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Duh, .40 is better.
Seriously though. I’ll put a .22LR or WMR and a good shooter up against a larger caliber anyday for self defense or food. .17hmr will put a deer down when shot in the skull. .22 will as well
Seriously though. I’ll put a .22LR or WMR and a good shooter up against a larger caliber anyday for self defense or food. .17hmr will put a deer down when shot in the skull. .22 will as well
backwoodsshooter
there’s always a method to the madness
saying one caliber is better than another is like saying one car manufacture is better than another.
with that said, Ill stick to 9mm and Hondas (as I sit here doing my Chrysler dealer training)
with that said, Ill stick to 9mm and Hondas (as I sit here doing my Chrysler dealer training)
I would say that comparison is a little off. It's more like witch car is faster. Some are better killers than others. It might be by small amounts but some are better. Just like a mustang and camero they are both fast, (now for my feelings) but the ford is way better because Chevies suck and so do Glocks
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Made me feel a little better after I got a 'lil 9mm from Geerub today.
Gallon milk jugs full of water are my ballistic gelatin. I drink tons of milk and always have jugs up to my ears.
So I fill them with water, put the cap back on, and blast em. They're great targets...reactive and don't leave a mess.
Just handguns from 20 feet +/-, I've shot these jugs with 22lr/22mag/380/38spl/9mm/40s&w/45acp/45lc/357mag/41mag/44mag.
And the Taurus Judge. Stainless 3" magnum w/3"barrel.
Using Winchester PDX 410 defender rounds,(3 slugs with 8 large bb's)..the Judge is the only handgun that explodes the whole jug. The others do what you'd expect, small hole in big hole out. The magnums do leave a notable exit wound though.
But that silly judge, blows the whole freakin jug apart. And I can hit the 6x8" steel plate at 60 feet shooting the long colts with questionable eyes and fixed sights.
I was never a judge fan boy. Then I got a deal on this one, free. Ok lets play. It's since become my go-to out here in the woods and it does nightstand duty too. Where a G23 might be able to do a little bit of everything, the judge isn't like that. It's happier with more specific tasks. But once you find the ammo that suits your environment, the judge concept has some cred's that are worth noting.