Why haven't you been to a training class?

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Last time I attended one I was told my "style" was all wrong and I needed the latest tacticool grip and stance. No thanks. I have 30-years of muscle memory invested and am very happy with my shooting performance.

Telling me I'm all fukced up before running me through any assessment to see where I'm at is a bit of a turn-off.
 
steelciocc said:
Last time I attended one I was told my "style" was all wrong and I needed the latest tacticool grip and stance. No thanks. I have 30-years of muscle memory invested and am very happy with my shooting performance.

Telling me I'm all fukced up before running me through any assessment to see where I'm at is a bit of a turn-off.
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I can see that being a turn off. But it also isn't a good indication of how all trainers perform or carry out their class.

Also, when I started taking Tae Kwan Do years ago they started by teaching me stance before teaching me how to punch and kick. I had been fighting for years using my own way, and thought it was good. They didn't ask me to start wearing out a punching bag the way I had done it for years.


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Then there are those that rag on you for using a 100 year old platform, @B00ger. lol. I enjoyed the last one I did with Boyette.
 
Diverdad said:
Then there are those that rag on you for using a 100 year old platform, @B00ger. lol. I enjoyed the last one I did with Boyette.
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What what?? I'd never rag on someone who was using antiquated equipment! I'd just use the spare time they need reloading to head back to the car for a drink and to call home and check on the kids.


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Men are the ones that give the most problems when teaching. We know it all and know how to do it, because we have been shooting since being in our mother's womb. I have watched mainly men at the range look like they are going fishing before they aim at the target. I have watched men hold their wrist with their support hand. I have watch men hold their thumb across the back of the revolver, because they shoot mainly revolvers. I once tried to correct a older guy shooting a revolver but he didn't change....been doing it like this for years. He decided to rent a Glock.....so goes the story. "Here sir, go to the bathroom and wash you slide bite and put on this band-aid on".
 
steelciocc said:
Last time I attended one I was told my "style" was all wrong and I needed the latest tacticool grip and stance. No thanks. I have 30-years of muscle memory invested and am very happy with my shooting performance.

Telling me I'm all fukced up before running me through any assessment to see where I'm at is a bit of a turn-off.
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A question,

Did you attend the class to get approval for your technique or to learn a new skill?

John
 
JBoyette said:
A question,

Did you attend the class to get approval for your technique or to learn a new skill?

John
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John, you asked a question in the OP. I answered.

I attend training to challenge my skills and to be introduced to new drills and techniques. That being said, every training outfit seems to want to recreate the wheel and develop their own brand of "right". I am a solid USPSA B class shooter and have no interest in learning someone else's pet technique or in re-tooling everything I've developed over the years. I need no ones approval of my technique, just challenge my shooting skills and make observations/recommendations accordingly.
 
steelciocc said:
John, you asked a question in the OP. I answered.

I attend training to challenge my skills and to be introduced to new drills and techniques. That being said, every training outfit seems to want to recreate the wheel and develop their own brand of "right". I am a solid USPSA B class shooter and have no interest in learning someone else's pet technique or in re-tooling everything I've developed over the years. I need no ones approval of my technique, just challenge my shooting skills and make observations/recommendations accordingly.
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So you went for approval.


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You are welcome.


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steelciocc said:
John, you asked a question in the OP. I answered.

I attend training to challenge my skills and to be introduced to new drills and techniques. That being said, every training outfit seems to want to recreate the wheel and develop their own brand of "right". I am a solid USPSA B class shooter and have no interest in learning someone else's pet technique or in re-tooling everything I've developed over the years. I need no ones approval of my technique, just challenge my shooting skills and make observations/recommendations accordingly.
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I was told a long time ago when I was a young pup. My teacher told me:

Young dumb ass, you will get students that are faster, better shots then you. If what you teach is true, even they will improve.

But only and only, if these Students can to learn and not show off.
 
From the responses, John, sounds like you could maximize participation by offering free classes that do not require any time.

Your challenges:
1) giving everyone improvements and knowledge in direct proportion to their time devoted to participation..
2) making sure everyone gets what they paid for.

But I think you can do it!!! :)
 
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MurphyLong said:
I haven't attended for the same reason I didn't go to college... I don't pay to learn. I either learn the most efficient and effective way to do something on my own, or I pay someone else to do it.
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I'm going to say something brazen and bold. This might have sounded good in your head, but it sounds ridiculous out loud.

And if you'll delete your post, I'll delete this, and we'll never speak of it again.
 
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MurphyLong said:
I haven't attended for the same reason I didn't go to college... I don't pay to learn. I either learn the most efficient and effective way to do something on my own, or I pay someone else to do it.
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@MurphyLong ...I'll honor the deal @fieldgrade offered, but I have to say, whether you believe it or not, you are indeed paying to learn. In fact, you are more than likely paying a HELL of a lot more than if you'd gotten a formal education. I realize college isn't for everyone, but I've yet to meet someone that it didn't benefit in many ways.

I'm hoping your statement was some sort of joke.
 
MurphyLong said:
I either learn the most efficient and effective way to do something on my own, or I pay someone else to do it.
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Unless you are claiming to have learned all that you know without making mistakes, you have either paid directly or indirectly to learn everything you know, or learned at someone else's expense.
 
I'm glad he isn't a pilot...


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Jakerson9 said:
From the responses, John, sounds like you could maximize participation by offering free classes that do not require any time.

Your challenges:
1) giving everyone improvements and knowledge in direct proportion to their time devoted to participation..
2) making sure everyone gets what they paid for.

But I think you can do it!!! :)
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See what I deal with?

I have a student right now that asks for my opinion and then does what I say not to do.

And wonders why he still struggling.

John
 
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I haven't been to a class lately because I haven't had the money prioritized to take a class I will gain from, ie a class small enough with enough trigger time to get anything useful from. I like the group cheapie classes, but honestly they're more get-together than learning experience to me.

Ammo is expensive, time and distance is restrictive, life is short... I shoot when I can. Matches mostly, because it's bang for your buck and close to home. Rarely static, unless I'm teaching someone new to shoot. I haven't been spending money on guns for the safe either. If I have $1000-1500 to spare, I'd rather take a nice vacation or something these days while I'm still young enough to enjoy it...

Now if you can figure out how to do one-on-one courses in Raleigh based on my schedule with ammo supplied at a low cost, I'm always down... But I'm a contractor, I know that's a unicorn request... Like fast, cheap, and good...
 
MurphyLong said:
It's not bragging, it's just a statement.



It was not a joke. I am not paying for the fact that I did not go to college.



Now you're using metaphors. I never said I don't make mistakes, because I do, and I learn from them. I said I don't pay to be taught, and I meant it literally. I do not take money from my bank and give it to someone else in exchange for learning how to do something.



As much as I would probably enjoy flying, between corrected vision and required training- It's not something I considered.
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Here is the fault in your reasoning...

With most things in life, if you make a mistake trying to learn you get more mistakes. You fall down riding a horse? Get back on. Burn the turkey learning to cook? Buy another turkey. Pop a clutch a few hundred times learning to drive stick? Just buy a new transmission.

But there are some things in life that you don't get a second chance to learn from your mistakes. Defending yourself or a loved one with a firearm is one of them.




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MurphyLong said:
Here's the fault in your reasoning...

You're making the assumption that whatever training and experience I already have is potentially insufficient. Am I saying "I don't need to become more proficient, or that I already know everything possible? No. I don't know how his course is taught, nor what it teaches. I do know that I've been in a couple of situations where my current MO has served me well. Will that always be the case? Probably not. Just like the training courses offered here (and anywhere else for that matter.) What works for them may not work for all, and it's impossible to be 100% prepared for every single situation.
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Gotcha, so basically you feel you know all you need to know. That's horrifying. I hope it works out for you. In all facets of life.


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MurphyLong said:
What I find horrifying is the lack of comprehension where I stated the literal exact opposite of what you just said before you said it.
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You can quote that all you want, and you may not fully understand what you are expressing to everyone here, but your message is "I don't need to pay people for training because I feel confident in what I know as it is." And not just in firearms, but in all aspects of education where you fee so confident in yourself that you find zero benefit to investing dollars into education.

And yes, I agree, you will never be 100% ready for any situation, but only a fool would "settle" when it comes to self defense.


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When I started into shooting I knew right away I wanted to compete somehow. So I found a guy that does that.
I have to say, the 60$ I paid Chris Tilley when I first started has paid itself off many times over. It helped tremendously and got me going in the right direction out of the gate.
It also established a relationship with him. It showed I was willing to pay for the knowledge he sweated and worked hard for and proven in competition. This proved to be awesome as now when I run into him he always gives me nice little nuggets of info and advice, whether it be shooting, reloading, traveling, whatever.
I have added to that with a ton of free knowledge from the net, but will be going back soon for another one.

I used to teach pool playing, so have seen first hand how instruction can improves someones game in leap and bounds. I used to tell people "if you don't improve your game and your knowledge a radical amount, you don't have to pay."
Never had a single person that wanted their money back. There's just so much that people don't know that they don't know! I've seen people that will play 3-4 nights a week for years and years and still can't run three balls, lol. Never could get my head around it. Try to help them and they say "I just want to have fun and do it my way". Okey dokey. Your way is wrong and sucks. Have fun.
I don't think they realize how fun it is to run out and crush your opponents. I guess they enjoy racking the balls!
 
MurphyLong said:
That's how you choose to interpret what I'm saying. Could I be making more money than I do know had I gone to college? Quite possibly, but I'm doing pretty good for a guy without paid "Higher Learning." I actually started attending College when I graduated High School early, and as far as I'm concerned, it was a waste of time and money, ergo I dropped out and went to work.

At what point is it settling? 1 class? 5 classes? 36 classes a year, taught by 3 different instructors, with opposing views?

Again, they can teach the theory that works for them all day long, but nothing works for everyone. When it comes to a skill, it's generalized theory and method. There is no proven fact in a method, other than "It works for me."
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Again, you are fine with "settling" on things. You settled on education. You settled on your career. And you settle on your competency with firearms. It's your life you get to lead and I am glad you are comfortable with it.

And to someone who actually values their abilities there is no end to learning. Whether paid or not. Most honest instructors, regardless of field, will tell you that they are still learning. There is no "Ok, I've learned it all."

The "I know all I need to know" is a foolish mindset.



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MurphyLong said:
You seem to like misinterpretation and misquoting. You're drawing your own conclusions that contradict what I'm directly saying. I never said I refuse to learn, nor do I ever stop learning. I just don't pay someone else to teach it. I also never said that "I know all I need to know."
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You are your teacher. I get it.


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MurphyLong said:
Apparently you don't, because yet again, you're drawing your own conclusions based solely on speculation. I also never said "I teach myself everything," although I do learn a lot on my own, I have never once said I haven't learned from others.
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No, I get it. You don't see a value in paying people for information.


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I'm glad that has worked out for you. I will never agree with that mindset as I don't feel myself to be the ultimate arbiter of knowledge, but if it's gotten you this far and you are happy then whatever seats your bullet.


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I'm glad to see things getting back to normal around here. Y'all were all starting to worry me.
 
MurphyLong said:
I never said I don't make mistakes, because I do, and I learn from them. I said I don't pay to be taught, and I meant it literally. I do not take money from my bank and give it to someone else in exchange for learning how to do something.
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Here's a direct quote of what you said:
MurphyLong said:
I don't pay to learn. I either learn the most efficient and effective way to do something on my own, or I pay someone else to do it.
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You in fact might have meant that you don't pay to be taught, but it certainly isn't what you originally said in terms of the meaning of the English language.

Anyway, it's clear now what you meant, and it is in fact implicated by your statement that you don't value what another person can teach you enough to expend money on it. That seems exceptional, one might find it hard to believe you never read an instruction manual for a product you purchased, in which case you literally paid for the instruction you received at the hand of another.
 
MurphyLong said:
While my original post may not have been clear enough, no matter how you look at it "I don't pay to learn" vs "I do not pay to be taught." Same general premise, unless taken wildly out of context.
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Example of general education gleaned for free.
 
Here lets get this all straight so you fellas can put this to bed:

Murphy Long:
Is cool with learning, has nothing against it, encourages others to do it.
He likes doing it , too, but prefers to take a stab at learning as best he can without paying someone else to teach him.

And, he doesn't have a college degree, and like many of us, doesn't regret it nor does he feel that it has affected him in a negative manner.

Booger:
He likes learning, long walks on the beach, and hookers, and is not afraid to pay for it.
 
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