Things you hear in a gun shop

J

John Travis

Happy to be here
Supporting Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2016
Messages
1,052
Location
Lexington, NC or thereabouts.
I stumbled into an interesting conversation not long ago, and thought I'd relate the tale here.

An expert's theory on revolver function. I had to laugh, but had neither the time nor the inclination to try and explain it all to him.

According to said expert, the main reason that a revolver throws fliers from time to time is because of the bullet yaw as it jumps the gap...referring to the barrel-cylinder gap...which does a varying amount of damage to the side of the bullet that it yaws toward, thus causing the innacuracy. He had an audience of about a half dozen, and they all seemed to accept his theory with one even remarking that it made sense.

And, then it dawned on me that there may be a good many people who either believe this, or would if it were to be presented to them in such an eloquent manner.

So, can anybody tell me why a bullet fired in a revolver can't "yaw" or otherwise deviate from the straight and narrow path from case mouth to muzzle?
 
Last edited:
rdinatal said:
Because the projectile is much longer than the gap. ~90% is in the cylinder and/or barrel.

Or...

View attachment 597256
Click to expand...
Basically, yes. "Jumping the gap" suggests that the bullet is free in the air during the transition from chamber to barrel, like Evel Knievel jumping a school bus...but there's more to it.
 
Last edited:
Some men you just can’t reach.

I was at a match shooting some factory 148gr wadcutter ammo at 50 yards. About a third of my rounds, probably the slowest ones in the box, were obviously destabilizing before they made it the whole measure. Oval holes and a few uncalled flyers. Nothing huge, but enough to cost a few points.

Had a gentleman proffer that the issue was my follow-through—somehow, my grip at the moment of detonation was imparting destabilizing yaw to the bullet, “tipping” the bullet off balance when it was passing through the muzzle crown.

He was completely serious. At 600 fps muzzle velocity, that bullet is traveling 50 yards in about 0.3 seconds. It’s accelerating in a 6” barrel for less than a thousandth of a second, tops. Good follow-throw or bad, a human can’t possibly “whip” a revolver barrel to induce bullet yaw with the muzzle crown. It’s too fast an operation.

The whole proposition rested on me being able to influence bullet flight like they did in that Angelina Jolie movie, “Wanted.”
 
Last edited:
JRV said:
Some men you just can’t reach.

I was at a match shooting some factory 148gr wadcutter ammo at 50 yards. About a third of my rounds, probably the slowest ones in the box, were obviously destabilizing before they made it the whole measure. Oval holes and a few uncalled flyers. Nothing huge, but enough to cost a few points.

Had a gentleman proffer that the issue was my follow-through—somehow, my grip at the moment detonation was imparting destabilizing yaw to the bullet, “tipping” the bullet off balance when it was passing through the muzzle crown.

He was completely serious. At 600 fps muzzle velocity, that bullet is traveling 50 yards in about 0.3 seconds. It’s accelerating in a 6” barrel for less than a thousandth of a second, tops. Good follow-throw or bad, a human can’t possibly “whip” a revolver barrel to induce bullet yaw with the muzzle crown. It’s too fast an operation.

The whole proposition rested on me being able to influence bullet flight like they did in that Angelina Jolie movie, “Wanted.”
Click to expand...


Well it is obvious that you have never seen Wanted. 😆 🤣
 
I would say his observation is correct but his correlation is faulty.
If you ignore the cylinder gap and imagine the cylinder chamber and barrel as one piece what you get is a barrel with a very long throat. From my experience (especially with rifles) minimizing the gap between the bullet and the rifling definitely effects accuracy.
Secondly there is the matter of the revolving mechanism itself and how well it lines up. If it is not per aligned I can see the forcing cone influence the bullet enough so it enters the rifling not concentric which would cause a flyer. Again this has nothing to do with the cylinder gap per se.
 
When you have a flier it’s just bad shooting.

When I have a flier it’s because Saturn was in retrograde and it impact the metallurgy in my pistols trigger spring which causes it to flex slightly which made the bullet go slightly sideways in the barrel.

I have no idea the answer other than the bullet being longer than the gap.
 
keepcalmandcarryon said:
I would say his observation is correct
Click to expand...
His observation is not only impossible in a properly functioning revolver, but wholly incorrect.

The bullet can't yaw between the chamber and the barrel and in order for the alignment to be off enough to damage the side of the bullet, the gun would have to be badly out of time.

I just want to get a little input before I go into specifics. I'll do that in another thread.

Look for: "Why Johnny's bullet can't yaw."
 
Last edited:
As I’ve gotten older the excuses reasons any of my rounds are outside the X-ring have increased quite a bit, many of them learned from highly regarded competitors. With years of experience I can quote many of them with a straight face. We do however, on occasion, call BS on them. Thanks to this thread I’ve added another one to the list. 😁
 
seems if it were an issue with the bullet nose ramming into the cone and causing damage, it would be a timing issue like @John Travis says. In that case it would probably be pretty repeatable and predictable to be 1 out of 5 or 6 depending on the revolver. It would also be somewhat dangerous.
 
MHI45 said:
As I’ve gotten older the excuses reasons any of my rounds are outside the X-ring have increased quite a bit, many of them learned from highly regarded competitors. With years of experience I can quote many of them with a straight face. We do however, on occasion, call BS on them. Thanks to this thread I’ve added another one to the list. 😁
Click to expand...
not an excuse, reality quality ammo makes a difference
 
"Things You Hear In A Gun Shop"

Not long ago an inexperienced customer asked this young, know-it-all behind the counter if they had, "Black Talons". The answer was, "Nah, they outlawed them because they went through bullet-proof vests." :rolleyes:
 
Last edited:
Dan0311 said:
"Things You Hear I n A Gun Shop"

Not long ago an inexperienced customer asked this young, know-it-all behind the counter if they had, "Black Talons". The answer was, "Nah, they outlawed them because they went through bullet-proof vests." :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
Heard a guy on YouTube say- black talons are cool but you'll get arrested for owning them so don't use them and if you have any, get rid of them quick.

Maybe he lived in NJ?
 
I would think that there would be no room for any yawing in a properly throated cylinder. I would also think that there would not be any unbalanced force on the back of the bullet to cause any yawing since the pressure should be equally distributed to all parts of the base.
 
The other day i heard a gunshop worker saying you can certainly buy a shotgun as a gift, but you have to do a bill of sale when you give it to the recipient.
 
Circa 2003: "You can't own any magazine over ten rounds if it is going in a post-ban rifle son" as the jackass passed a WASR-10 with 30 round magazine on the rack.

He also tried to sell me a $800 dollar Century G3 that had a 20 round AL magazine locked in 3 minutes later.
 
If you have a revolver that having "fliers" put in a ransom rest and check it out if it has fliers and it's coming from the same cylinder everytime then there is a problem . BUT if you don't have fliers then it's most likely finger manipulation on trigger. Ask me how I figured that out. I had that problem many years ago. Also had others to shoot my gun with no fliers. These guys were top shooters and they were taking My gun and my ammo and shooting 10 ring groups at 25 yards
Trigger press is paramount and sight alignment to . There are many things that can cause bad shots
 
dmarbell said:
Could yaw from a revolver round be caused by the Coriolis Effect? And if you think the world is flat, pass this comment on by.
Click to expand...

Nope, its barrel harmonics. Snubbies are less likely to have flyers, less barrel = less harmonics. If you handload then you can dial in a load that is between harmonics nodes on longer barrels.
 
I thought it was a southern thing, Hey, Yaw!


dmarbell said:
Could yaw from a revolver round be caused by the Coriolis Effect? And if you think the world is flat, pass this comment on by.
Click to expand...
For flat earthers, it's called the merry-go-round effect.
 
Last edited:
Gander Mountain when they had their closing sales, snapped up a Beretta Neos. Young kid helping the salesman make copy of my DL and concealed permit tells him he can't sell me the gun because my NCDL says 'not valid for federal identification'.:eek:
Salesman said my DL was all good, explained to the kid that is for entry into US GOVT buildings. I now have Real ID.
 
Last edited:
One of the employees at Carolina Guns and Gear told me it was illegal for me to ship a gun to an FFL through UPS. “So many felonies”.
 
Last edited:
Button Pusher said:
Gander Mountain when they had their closing sales, snapped up a Beretta Neos. Young kid helping the salesman make copy of my
DL and concealed permit tells him he can't sell me the gun because my NCDL says 'not valid for federal identification'.:eek:
Salesman said my DL was all good, explained to the kid that is for entry into US GOVT buildings. I now have Real ID.
Click to expand...
I could use another neos...
 
cold1 said:
Nope, its barrel harmonics.
Click to expand...
While harmonics can have a telling effect with rifle barrels...especially sporter contour barrels...typical 4-8 inch revolver barrels are too stiff for them to make any sort of practical difference.

Assuming a properly functioning revolver, the single biggest cause(s) of fliers or wide groups is an inconsistent grip and/or inconsistent trigger finger placement from shot to shot. One moves the muzzle before the shot, and the other moves it after the shot.

The gun is in recoil before the bullet leaves the muzzle. Any difference in the muzzle's position at the instant the bullet exits will change the theoretical point of impact.

Using a 6-inch sight radius...the distance from rear sight to front and a 25 yard target...a change in muzzle position of just .010 inch at bullet exit will change the point of impact 1.5 inches and the shorter the sight radius, the greater the shift.
 
Last edited:
John Travis said:
While harmonics can have a telling effect with rifle barrels...especially sporter contour barrels...typical 4-8 inch revolver barrels are too stiff for them to make any sort of practical difference.

Assuming a properly functioning revolver, the single biggest cause(s) of fliers or wide groups is an inconsistent grip and/or inconsistent trigger finger placement from shot to shot. One moves the muzzle before the shot, and the other moves it after the shot.

The gun is in recoil before the bullet leaves the muzzle. Any difference in the muzzle's position at the instant the bullet exits will change the theoretical point of impact.

Using a 6-inch sight radius...the distance from rear sight to front and a 25 yard target...a change in muzzle position of just .010 inch at bullet exit will change the point of impact 1.5 inches and the shorter the sight radius, the greater the shift.
Click to expand...

Maybe I should have added 🤣 on my post above.
 
Like many good urban legends there is actually a shred of truth to both anecdotes.

Oversized cylinder throats and excessive gap length can affect accuracy in revolvers - not really 'yaw' tho. Just the bullet not fully supported / can be slightly off center when it hits the forcing cone. Also poorly cut forcing cones hurt.

As for 'tipping' wadcutters this is a real thing. Debatable as to actual physics but I have keyholed enough .32 and .38 wadcutters to know this. Believe the slow velocity and bullet shape permits destabilization at the muzzle crown under perfect conditions. Can't do it on demand but any longtime PPC shooter can attest to this.
 
Jmoser said:
As for 'tipping' wadcutters this is a real thing.
Click to expand...
That's more a matter of the combination of low velocity and rifling twist too slow for the length of the bullet, with the latter being the more significant player.
Jmoser said:
Oversized cylinder throats and excessive gap length can affect accuracy in revolvers
Click to expand...
Which is why I included the disclaimer "Badly worn or badly machined throats" in the other thread.

Excessive gap? How excessive are we talking? I've fired some amazingly accurate revolvers with .010-012 gaps...which is considered excessive in most circles...and a few dogs with .004 inch gaps. I had an old 1937 Argentine Smith & Wesson with a gap that gauged at .016 inch. Endshsake and cylinder rotational play were off the scale and the gun shot 25 yard cloverleaf groups with hardball off a sandbag rest. The forcing cone was so badly eroded that it was shaped more like a bowl than a cone and the rifling so shallow that you couldn't see it through the fouling after a dozen rounds. I never gauged the chamber throats, but I'd lay money that they were in excess of .452 inch.

I finally retired it when the barrel split from the cone halfway into the chamber.
 
Supermatch said:
More likely to be the areola effect, caused by the gal on the point next to you.
Click to expand...
I ended up with my loaded handgun pointed at my own foot while distracted watching a generously endowed girl in a tank top do the hot brass dance at SSI one time.
 
John Travis said:
That's more a matter of the combination of low velocity and rifling twist too slow for the length of the bullet, with the latter being the more significant player.
Click to expand...
1:10 is ideal for .38 wadcutters and it still happens. My loads equal the standard Federal Gold Medal Match velocity but yes - powderpuff low velocity loads are worse. Can do it in a Model 52 with same twist as well as revolver.
 
Jmoser said:
1:10 is ideal for .38 wadcutters and it still happens.
Click to expand...
Yep. They don't tend to do very well in the Smiths at match-typical velocites, but a little better in the Colts due to the faster twist rate.

While on the subject of those .45 Auto revolvers from 1917...and related to the yaw question...

They were produced by Smith & Wesson and Colt. The first few thousand Colts didn't have chamber throats and were bored straight through concentrically at .480 inch. They had to use the half moon clips for both headspacing and extraction, while the Smiths only needed them for extraction. The shoulder in the Smiths would allow the cartridge to headspace on the case mouth while the early Colts wouldn't.

With .028 inch difference, you'd tend to think that yaw could be a serious problem, but it apparently wasn't for those revolvers. I've fired a couple of them, and while the accuracy wasn't stellar, it was serviceable and well up to the task for the killing of men at short range. Maybe the bullet length to diameter ratio played into it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom