Bullpups?

Tim

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Is the juice worth the squeeze. I’ve never played with one, which puts it square on my “must have” list.

If I’m not kicking down doors and clearing rooms, what’s the point? Are they fun or just utilitarian?

Is Tavor the only real option or are others a decent buy?
 
Augs and Ps90s feel like they melt into your arms, ergonomics are awesome. Some like the augs have longer barrel options up to 20” iirc. Never played with a Tavor.

Biggest complaint is horrible triggers. I haven’t tried any of the high speed aftermarket triggers though. Some have ambi options for the folks that are wrong handed.
 
I happen to love bullpups. Probably because I've collected AR's for 35 years and they're boring. Bullpups are just different. I've never minded stock AR triggers for the the type of (non-precision) AR shooting I do, so the poor bullpup triggers aren't a big concern for me. The long transfer/trigger bar make for an odd trigger - but nothing that a little range time can't fix.

I have most, you are absolutely invited to try any.
 
Dan0311 said:
I happen to love bullpups. Probably because I've collected AR's for 35 years and they're boring. Bullpups are just different. I've never minded stock AR triggers for the the type of (non-precision) AR shooting I do, so the poor bullpup triggers aren't a big concern for me. The long transfer/trigger bar make for an odd trigger - but nothing that a little range time can't fix.

I have most, you are absolutely invited to try any.
Click to expand...
Range day! I can host at @VOD Tactical any time
 
Dan0311 said:
I happen to love bullpups. Probably because I've collected AR's for 35 years and they're boring. Bullpups are just different. I've never minded stock AR triggers for the the type of (non-precision) AR shooting I do, so the poor bullpup triggers aren't a big concern for me. The long transfer/trigger bar make for an odd trigger - but nothing that a little range time can't fix.

I have most, you are absolutely invited to try any.
Click to expand...
I wanna shoot the microtech 🤓
 
I've owned a Tavor x95 and an RDB, both are gone.

Ignoring the wonky ergos and poor triggers which can be trained out, what I couldn't get over was the horrible accuracy. "battle rifle" blah blah, my PSA poverty pony shoots circles around the Tavor and RDB which are 4-6 MOA rifles at best. You'll see reviews where they get 2.5 MOA with the 'right' ammo but damn if I'm going to own something that's so picky and inherently inaccurate.

They look cool and exotic and all which is why I fell into the trap on those occasions, but unless you're mag dumping into a berm or in/out of vehicles or CQB all the time they're horrible performers.

Now my KS7 bullpup shotgun, still have that thing. Seems reliable and it's a 18" cylinder bore 12 gauge, so mag dumping into the berm at 20 yards is what it's all about.
 
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I love the idea behind the bullpup.
But in the older models I tried the trigger pull was terrible.
But being left-handed severely limited the models I was able to try
they're more bottom eject or Ambi eject models available now
 
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I must be the only one who despises them in every way. Aesthetics, ergos, reliability, incompatibility. A nice toy if you can afford it. Seems like a novelty firearm.
 
I've got some for fun and home defense (heavily skewed to fun). I basically just plink at the range and LARP in my house. Everyone who shoots my X95 SBR and girlfriends PS90 SBR has a lot of fun and very memorable for new shooters.

X95 SBR:

Pros

* Not an AR
* never had a reliability issue
* WAY shorter than an 11.5" AR even with a can. I can walk sideways through a door while shouldering it
* Balances well. The rear balance works great when I add a can to the front. It doesn't feel front heavy and it swings really well.
* Easy to hold offhand without getting tired even though it's kinda heavy compared to an AR
* okay aftermarket
* bult in folding BUIS with tritium inserts
* familiar controls
* built in pic rail

Cons

* very expensive
* hard to get spare parts if something was to break somehow
* IMO it needs to be an SBR. The weight is unacceptable. good luck finding the kit though
* doesn't like high back pressure cans and no adjustable gas block without custom work

Neutral/notes

* stock trigger feels like a Glock
* Gisselle trigger bow fixes the takeup and brings it close to a lighter ar milspec without being horrendously expensive
* gotta pay attention to optic mount heights. lower 1/3 cowitness on an ar is absolute on an x95

PS90 SBR:

Pros

* Very short
* Very light and handy
* very easy to hold offhand
* intergalactic combat proven
* fully ambi
* okay aftermarket
* 50 rounds on tap

Cons

* expensive gun
* expensive ammo
* hard to get spare parts if something was to break somehow
* IMO it needs to be an SBR. The length is unacceptable.
* stock trigger feels like squishing through a memory foam mattress to crush a stale fortune cookie
* stock rail/sights are garbage and must be replaced
* not drop safe from the rear
* weird to mount light controls on

Neutral/notes

* k&m trigger spring and promoted pawn creep killer fixes the terrible trigger
* easy to work on/clean
* 5.7 got NATO acceptance and everyone is making new 5.7 guns now so ammo might get cheaper one day and shouldn't vanish
* girlfriends home defense gun, also her favorite to shoot
* ejects downward with authority. entertaining shooting on a bench if you're too far forward
* doesn't like american eagle ammo

11.5" AR15 for reference:

20230325_151824.jpg20230325_151915_1.jpg
 
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Tim said:
Range day! I can host at @VOD Tactical any time
Click to expand...
Sounds great to me. Weekends or early during the week are best.

Jayne said:
I've owned a Tavor x95 and an RDB, both are gone.

Ignoring the wonky ergos and poor triggers which can be trained out, what I couldn't get over was the horrible accuracy. "battle rifle" blah blah, my PSA poverty pony shoots circles around the Tavor and RDB which are 4-6 MOA rifles at best. You'll see reviews where they get 2.5 MOA with the 'right' ammo but damn if I'm going to own something that's so picky and inherently inaccurate.

They look cool and exotic and all which is why I fell into the trap on those occasions, but unless you're mag dumping into a berm or in/out of vehicles or CQB all the time they're horrible performers.

Now my KS7 bullpup shotgun, still have that thing. Seems reliable and it's a 18" cylinder bore 12 gauge, so mag dumping into the berm at 20 yards is what it's all about.
Click to expand...

Truth be told, I've never shot my bullpups much past 100 yds, and mostly less than 50 yds., but in more of a 'tactical' practice. I've never shot them off a rest for groups other than to sight them in. For me, they are more for 0 - 75 yrd tools, and in that role they are excellent. They seem to be decent as many nations use them as standard for their military. I'm not too sure the Israelis are OK with a 4-6 MOA rifle, but I wouldn't know their criterion.

BUT, when you compare a KelTec to a Steyr or Tavor.....well I have to just scratch my head at that one! LOL



PS90, pre-ban AUG, MicroTech MSAR, Hellion, MSAR #2, X95 and FS2000.

1679772967151.png
 
some_kid6 said:
I've got some for fun and home defense (heavily skewed to fun). I basically just plink at the range and LARP in my house. Everyone who shoots my X95 SBR and girlfriends PS90 SBR has a lot of fun and very memorable for new shooters.

X95 SBR:

Pros

* Not an AR
* never had a reliability issue
* WAY shorter than an 11.5" AR even with a can. I can walk sideways through a door while shouldering it
* Balances well. The rear balance works great when I add a can to the front. It doesn't feel front heavy and it swings really well.
* Easy to hold offhand without getting tired even though it's kinda heavy compared to an AR
* okay aftermarket
* bult in folding BUIS with tritium inserts
* familiar controls
* built in pic rail

Cons

* very expensive
* hard to get spare parts if something was to break somehow
* IMO it needs to be an SBR. The weight is unacceptable. good luck finding the kit though
* doesn't like high back pressure cans and no adjustable gas block without custom work

Neutral/notes

* stock trigger feels like a Glock
* Gisselle trigger bow fixes the takeup and brings it close to a lighter ar milspec without being horrendously expensive
* gotta pay attention to optic mount heights. lower 1/3 cowitness on an ar is absolute on an x95

PS90 SBR:

Pros

* Very short
* Very light and handy
* very easy to hold offhand
* intergalactic combat proven
* fully ambi
* okay aftermarket
* 50 rounds on tap

Cons

* expensive gun
* expensive ammo
* hard to get spare parts if something was to break somehow
* IMO it needs to be an SBR. The length is unacceptable.
* stock trigger feels like squishing through a memory foam mattress to crush a stale fortune cookie
* stock rail/sights are garbage and must be replaced
* not drop safe from the rear
* weird to mount light controls on

Neutral/notes

* k&m trigger spring and promoted pawn creep killer fixes the terrible trigger
* easy to work on/clean
* 5.7 got NATO acceptance and everyone is making new 5.7 guns now so ammo might get cheaper one day and shouldn't vanish
* girlfriends home defense gun, also her favorite to shoot
* ejects downward with authority. entertaining shooting on a bench if you're too far forward
* doesn't like american eagle ammo

11.5" AR15 for reference:

View attachment 599172View attachment 599173
Click to expand...

That Tavor SBR is baaaaaaad-aaaaaaaaaaass.
 
The first black rifle i ever bought was a bushmaster bullpup. I thought it looked so futuristic and i had to have it. It was $650 at a pawn shop in Asheville.

It was ok i guess but i preferred everyone else's standard ar. Another thing that i can't get out of my head is that if there's a kaboom, that bolt is right beside your face when shooting. No matter how unlikely, it was in my mind when i shot. Looked like this one
1679776597545.png
 
Tim said:
Tomorrow afternoon? @barf can bring the ammo, I’ll supply comic relief.
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I am ammo poor. I spent 4 hours there yesterday 😓 And saving for a suppressor. Count me out.
 
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Dan0311 said:
I'm not too sure the Israelis are OK with a 4-6 MOA rifle, but I wouldn't know their criterion.
Click to expand...

It's a tiny country, the shots can't be that far. Plus they carry with an empty chamber, so who knows what they're thinking.
 
bond-bullpup-animation-gif-ready-Edit-no-bg-700.gif
 
There's a YouTube video of lena miculek at that millionaire guys house with all the new guns and she shot one of those. It was jam after jam after jam.
 
Tim said:
Is the juice worth the squeeze. I’ve never played with one, which puts it square on my “must have” list.

If I’m not kicking down doors and clearing rooms, what’s the point? Are they fun or just utilitarian?

Is Tavor the only real option or are others a decent buy?
Click to expand...
Yes, buy one
 
I've been digging into this as well, since I'm wanting something short that won't be classed as an SBR (i.e. AR pistol alternative). I looked at the MDRX too, and came to the conclusion that unless I try one and absolutely fall in love with the Tavor, none of them are worth getting unless you just have a boner for the Aug. At least not for anything that's more than an occasional range toy.
 
Supermatch said:
At least not for anything that's more than an occasional range toy.
Click to expand...

Yeah, they're not for everyone I guess, but what would you want to use it for besides an occasional range toy? Why would it not have the same applications as an AR for you?
 
Dan0311 said:
Yeah, they're not for everyone I guess, but what would you want to use it for besides an occasional range toy? Why would it not have the same applications as an AR for you?
Click to expand...
That's the thing - I want a bullpup that has good ergonomics, accuracy, and reliability so that it could be used in the same applications (e.g. truck/trunk/SHTF), but only the Tavor seems to come close, albeit with reports of being problematic when suppressed, and there seems to be mixed opinions about how many rounds you can cycle before buildup on the bolt becomes problematic. The Springfield is a mile too long in LOP, the KelTec doesn't seem to have the reliability, the MDRX costs a small fortune and seems to be about 50/50 whether you'll get one that runs out of the box, the Aug is proven but dated and also pricey. Accuracy claims also seem to be all over the map.
 
Ok, I feel I have to jump in here in a meaningful way. Some credentials to validate my opinion: I own 3x bullpups 1x, X95 in 5.56, 1x X95 in 9mm & 1x T7 in 508. I have shot over 5000K though them, about 4500 of those through the 5.56 gun. I have also been to the Tavor Operators LV1 course as well as the Tavor Armorers course.

TLDR: If you are bullpup curious buy an X95 used, buy a case of ammo and train with / shoot it exclusively for that case. If you dig it after that you'll prob. love it. If you don't sell it and you'll only be out a case of ammo.

Here are my thoughts...

Reliability - In 4.5K rounds I've had exactly 1 malfunction that I can remember. And TBH I think this was user induced.

Accuracy - Could be better, but not out of the realm of U.S. Army standards (~ 3 to 4.0 MOA). With good ammo (77gr) you can get down to about 1.5ish MOA consistently. I've hit out to 600 using 55gr M193 so it certainly is accurate enough for practical work.

Weight - It is a bit heavy (insert "but all the weight is to the rear" / balance argument here) However, it is not out of the realm of reasonable.

Ergos - It has the best ergo IMO. Very close to AR style. Yes, mag changes etc take some practice to get used to... but that's kinda the point of a bullpub isnt it?

Trigger - Stock trigger is completely usable if you train with it. For $100 you can get the Lighten Bow which drastically improves the trigger, very close to a decent AR trigger feel. For an extra $350 you can get the trigger pack which is almost too light and short IMO. So, to me, the bad trigger argument is/should be dead. If you don't like the stock trigger on an X95 you can absolutely improve it for not that much money.

Suppression - This is prob. my biggest issue with the system... It is gassy. No the gun will not "beat itself to death" like GarandThumb implied. It can/will gas you out. There are however, work arounds for this the biggest being choosing a flow thru can design. There are also some cheap and easy DIY solutions to seal up the weak side ejection port and gas cylinder that mitigate the issue somewhat. My Hurx work can is currently in NFA jail... so we'll see how much difference it makes once it's released.

Support - IWI has a great reputation for customer support. I haven't had to rely on this though (see reliability above). The do have quite an extensive amount of content / resources to help the end user train with the system (Experts corner) and also offer a bunch of classes are IMO reasonable prices to help folks train and use their systems effectively.

Aftermarket - Good, but limited. If you absolutely need a purple mag release button and a dust cover that says "Smile & wait for flash" well then this isn't the gun for you.

Price - Yep, it's somewhat expensive. It is built to military standards / quality and assembled in the U.S.A. American labor aint cheap. However, people gobble up Colt's at their inflated prices and scream... It's military / duty / LEO quality... the price is what it is. They can be found on the secondary market fairly regularly for around $1500ish. I'd recommend buying used. Most of the used ones I've seen have been shot very little.

Public Service Offer - related to Price above, check out the public service offer on their website. The offer LEO/MIL/FF/EMT/Veterans etc... a pretty respectable discount if you order direct from IWI. There can be a bit of a wait but its worth it.

If you want a bullpup for serious use "ie you would potentially trust your life on the gun" the Tavor and the AUG are the only real options. I have no direct experience with the others but my general opinion on them is:

Kel Tec - I wouldn't trust my life to anything made by kel tec
MDR - Quality seems hit or miss, lots of reports of issues with those guns, but some folks do have great luck with them
Hellion - To early to tell. Ergo are a bit weird for me and I don't like the mag release system. Not cause its bad, it is just a vast departure from any other systems out there.
AUG- Great guns from what I hear, availability/support can be limited but I hear Steyr is trying to improve on that. I want to pick one up for "fun" but haven't taken the plunge yet.

If you just want something to plink with. the X95 is an expensive toy. If you want a serious duty use rifle from a company with an insane reputation for reliability that is darn close to what the IDF is using... well then the X95 is well worth the money.

I'll save the extended discussion of bullpup vs non-bullpup for a different post.
 
biffmann said:
With good ammo (77gr) you can get down to about 1.5ish MOA consistently.
Click to expand...
This is my hang up. A rack grade PSA AR upper starts out here.

A $200 Ballistic Advantage barrel gets you sub-MOA every time with near zero effort.

I may still find a bullpup to play around with. If MOA accuracy isn’t achievable, I’ll lose interest pretty quickly. Lord knows I need all the mechanical advantage I can get.
 
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keepcalmandcarryon said:
Bullpups are like women with piercings, tattoos, and weird hair. They look kinda hot and interesting but after trying them out all you can think of is how the F**k do I get rid of this hot mess?
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Easy, you get a second one.
 
Tim said:
This is my hang up. A rack grade PSA AR upper starts out here.

A $200 Ballistic Advantage barrel gets you sub-MOA every time with near zero effort.

I may still find a bullpup to play around with. If MOA accuracy isn’t achievable, I’ll lose interest pretty quickly. Lord knows I need all the mechanical advantage I can get.
Click to expand...

I'd almost guarantee PSA isn't putting 10,000K rounds worth of testing into their designs to ensure reliability and functionality... Are they even test firing all the guns at the factory, or only a sample? 1 in 50? 1 in 10? IWI test fires every gun at the factory before it's shipped.

This level of QA/QC costs money. Maybe that's worth it maybe it isn't. It all comes down to use case. This is why some folks buy LMTs, DD and Knight's guns while others buy PSA, RR, AERO, etc...

Strait MSRP to Performance you'll never beat an AR. So many of those things have been made, and the customer base is so large, that fix costs can be spread out to keep prices lower.

The AR is truly a great design and at this juncture its had like what 70 years of design iteration and refinement?

Bullpups admittedly have a niche use case. Even more so in the civilian context. I think its a great concept and X95 is a great platform. I'd love to see them refine the design again and add things like a 45 degree safety, adj. gas regulator and improve the accuracy some.
 
How do these things behave if you need to switch shoulders in the middle of a stage/engagement?
 
biffmann said:
Ok, I feel I have to jump in here in a meaningful way. Some credentials to validate my opinion: I own 3x bullpups 1x, X95 in 5.56, 1x X95 in 9mm & 1x T7 in 508. I have shot over 5000K though them, about 4500 of those through the 5.56 gun. I have also been to the Tavor Operators LV1 course as well as the Tavor Armorers course.

TLDR: If you are bullpup curious buy an X95 used, buy a case of ammo and train with / shoot it exclusively for that case. If you dig it after that you'll prob. love it. If you don't sell it and you'll only be out a case of ammo.

Here are my thoughts...
Click to expand...

Very good review/info. Thanks for taking the time to post it.

Tim said:
This is my hang up. A rack grade PSA AR upper starts out here.

A $200 Ballistic Advantage barrel gets you sub-MOA every time with near zero effort.

I may still find a bullpup to play around with. If MOA accuracy isn’t achievable, I’ll lose interest pretty quickly. Lord knows I need all the mechanical advantage I can get.
Click to expand...

Again, I haven't shot for groups, but if you shoot for MOA accuracy, I don't think bullpups will be your thing. If you want a shorter package (I've heard rumors...) that can quickly and consistently ring man-size steel at 100+ w/5.56mm, the bullpups are pretty cool and fun. But definitely more of a collector thing than something that would replace a good AR.

Tim said:
How do these things behave if you need to switch shoulders in the middle of a stage/engagement?
Click to expand...

It depends on the rifle, but without taking the time to change the ejection, you'd have to find a somewhat uncomfortable spot for your cheekweld. The Hellion is fresh in my memory, and that one isn't a problem.
 
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