Bullpups?

[Cataphract]

I love bullpups. The length of an SBR without the paperwork or velocity loss. Three main issues with them that I always see thrown around…trigger, which for many platforms the aftermarket has addressed. People replace milspec triggers in their AR’s, but balk at doing the same for a bullpup? Weird ergonomics and manual of arms…well, weird compared to an AR but if you’d trained on something other than an AR then those AR ergonomics might feel weird. Finally cost…well, can’t argue that one. AR platform has been the big dog in the American market for a while now and economy of scale has weighed in it’s favor. I love bullpups but for the prices they’re going for (figure $1500 and up for anything good) and for that much what kind of an AR can you put together? Pretty hard for any other platform to compete.
I do think that if Mr Stoner had decided not to come up with the AR platform and we’d adopted something like the Steyr Aug instead and it had the benefit of all the time and expertise plus aftermarket support that we might view bullpups in a different light.

 

[biffmann]

How do these things behave if you need to switch shoulders in the middle of a stage/engagement?

The X95 can rather easily be shot off both shoulders... There is a technique, not hard, happy to show you.

Also, swapping from L to R is fairly easy... If you find a used R hand one I can help get that swapped over for you.

 

[DrScaryGuy]

@Dan0311 that's a collection to be proud of! the tavors and an fs2000 are dream guns. the tavor is the normal kind of dream because they're really not all that much... the fs2000 is a special kind of dream.
If you happen by midsouth, see if they still have the mossberg 500 bullpup 12ga in the back right corner.
They used to have 2 of them...
speaking of bullpup shotguns, i have a mossberg 500 bullpup (from midsouth), a keltec ks7, and a turkish space bullpup saiga thing.
Also, I have 2 of the walther g22 22lr carbines (one is registered as a pistol in Michigan). And a ps90 that's still waiting on its sbr stamp to come through. I also have the cx4, which is like the tomboy little sister of a true bullpup (also waiting on a tax stamp)

And for those that have a sorpion evo but wish it was goofier...
https://manticorearms.com/product/scorpion-evo-bullpup-kit/ it's on a great sale right now. $200... i don't even have an evo but i might buy one

 

[hp468]

Everyone forgets the fs2000, tactical tuna!!

 

[Dan0311]

Thanks @DrScaryGuy! Even after getting the X95, I liked the Steyr AUG and MSARs a little better even though the AUG is a 30+ year older design. Now...the X95 is growing on me. The FS2000 is the most valuable as a collector, but it's my least fav bullpup. It's just odd and ungainly.
With more modern rifles, I try to stick to military used and based firearms. Exceptions would be the Robinson M96's, Bushmaster ACR, etc.

 

[RedneckFur]

How do these things behave if you need to switch shoulders in the middle of a stage/engagement?

If you're in that situation you use what uncle sugar issued you and don't worry about it.

 

[DrScaryGuy]

Everyone forgets the fs2000, tactical tuna!!

listen, the beretta arx is the tactical tuna. it's not a bullpup. if we have a bullpup shoot, i'll bring my sbr and stick it over on the reject table with the cx4

 

[DrScaryGuy]

The first black rifle i ever bought was a bushmaster bullpup. I thought it looked so futuristic and i had to have it. It was $650 at a pawn shop in Asheville.

i think midsouth had one of those too a while back. price wasn't too bad, but it had been bubbad up a bit and looked like it would be impossible to find the correct parts. i passed.

 

[BigWaylon]

11.5" AR15 for reference:

View attachment 599172View attachment 599173

A good “for reference” pic would’ve had no silencers, or three… 😝

 

[Dan0311]

listen, the beretta arx is the tactical tuna. it's not a bullpup. if we have a bullpup shoot, i'll bring my sbr and stick it over on the reject table with the cx4

I have a Beretta ARX. It's also..."odd". Maybe odder than bullpups. I bought it unfired in a package deal for $730, with the thought that these rifles (that no one likes) will be much more valuable one day as a collector piece,

 

[Button Pusher]

I have a Beretta ARX. It's also..."odd". Maybe odder than bullpups. I bought it unfired in a package deal for $730, with the thought that these rifles (that no one likes) will be much more valuable one day as a collector piece,

I have the ARX 100 as well as the 160 rifle and pistol in .22lr. Fun to shoot.

 

[DrScaryGuy]

it's crazy to me that the 22 version is still selling fine, but the 5.56 just folded up and went home. they weren't even that expensive at the end...

 

[Dan0311]

it's crazy to me that the 22 version is still selling fine, but the 5.56 just folded up and went home. they weren't even that expensive at the end...

Yep, I kinda' counted on that. A while ago, I had heard/read very good things about them as a combat rifle platform, but I think they're just too damn ugly for American money. Same with the FN FS2000 mentioned earlier in the thread.

If Hollywood makes a movie and Tom Cruise or Keanu Reeves uses one, maybe interest will grow? lol

 

[Supermatch]

I took a good look at bullpups. The only real options seem to be X95 and AUG. I'd like to try an X95 someday, but the IDF is dropping it, and that's a concern for long term support.

I heard that "dropping the Tavor" rumor a few years ago, and both IWI and IDF came out and said that wasn't the case. Has something changed since then?

 

[some_kid6]

A good “for reference” pic would’ve had no silencers, or three… 😝

Haha fair. Added a 16" upper and a 4.75" upper as well:

 

[Supermatch]

I caved and ordered a Tavor and a PA slx 3x prism to put on top. Will report back with what I think of it when I get the chance to shoot it.

 

[Tim]

I caved and ordered a Tavor and a PA slx 3x prism to put on top. Will report back with what I think of it when I get the chance to shoot it.

Sweet combo I expect.

 

[Button Pusher]

Yep, I kinda' counted on that. A while ago, I had heard/read very good things about them as a combat rifle platform, but I think they're just too damn ugly for American money. Same with the FN FS2000 mentioned earlier in the thread.

If Hollywood makes a movie and Tom Cruise or Keanu Reeves uses one, maybe interest will grow? lol

Bond uses one in No Time to Die after disarming a henchman.

Beretta ARX-160 - Internet Movie Firearms Database - Guns in Movies, TV and Video Games

imfdb.org

 

[Supermatch]

Sweet combo I expect.

Hope so. Primary Arms also has the Streamlight HLX on sale, so grabbed one of those as well.

 

[Dan0311]

Bond uses one in No Time to Die after disarming a henchman.

Beretta ARX-160 - Internet Movie Firearms Database - Guns in Movies, TV and Video Games

imfdb.org

They may have to do a little better than that!

 

[DrScaryGuy]

If Hollywood makes a movie and Tom Cruise or Keanu Reeves uses one, maybe interest will grow? lol

Maybe. For some reason the (not bullpup) H&K UMP and SL8 have made a bit of a comeback. I blame tommybuilt for a lot of that, but it can't all be him.

I really need to start getting into destructive devices so i can pick up that ARX grenade launcher. and maybe work on an oldschool m203 for an A2 clone. that would motivate me to finally get off my butt to build an a2, swap the birdcage from my a1 build and replace it with the 3prong i've had sitting here

oh, in bullpup news, my ps90 is officially at the shop and on the waiting list for sbr conversion. I could do it myself, but I'll rely on their shop insurance for my nfa item...

 

[Stogies]

I am approaching this strictly from a technical and academic point of view, I don't own any bullpubs (yet).

From a conceptual standpoint it's a brilliant idea to give you a full length rifle barrel in a compact package. That does are often needed can be seen in the US adopting the shortened carbine version after Iraq. A bullpub would have done the job just fine without the issues the low range carbines then encountered in Afghanistan.

Several countries have adopted them decades ago and did not go back. So it seems that neither the sometimes subpar triggers nor any of the other issues were too much to overcome. Considering how long they have been in use now in Austria, France and the UK without any reported cases of blowups I think we can safely say that seems to be more or less a hypothetical issue. Please do correct me if there were such cases.

 

[keepcalmandcarryon]

Considering how long they have been in use now in Austria, France and the UK

None of these countries have become involved in a long term shooting war that would test these rifles out.
I would point to the Canadian Ross Rifle which was hailed as a technological marvel only to go down in infamy in the trenches of WWI.
The challenge of Bullpups is that mechanically they have to be more complex than their conventional counterparts. More complexity equals more problems.

 

[Stogies]

None of these countries have become involved in a long term shooting war that would test these rifles out.
I would point to the Canadian Ross Rifle which was hailed as a technological marvel only to go down in infamy in the trenches of WWI.
The challenge of Bullpups is that mechanically they have to be more complex than their conventional counterparts. More complexity equals more problems.

Granted no WW style conflicts and the Brits hat HK redo theirs due to some issues but that was not primarily the concept. But overall they have been used and trained with for such a long time that it seems to me if they were true failures it would have had to come out at some point.

 

[Supermatch]

Finally pulled the trigger on the X95. IMO, this is the way to go if you want the shortest possible setup without having an SBR.

- Surprisingly heavy, even with an empty mag. Definitely no AR featherweight, but not that noticeable once shouldered.
- Build quality seems good. Plastics are solid, everything feels substantial, especially in comparison to other polymer guns. No shakes/rattles.
- Trigger description of "Glock-like" is pretty accurate. Good bit of take up, some creep, medium-light weight but predictable release. Reset is on the long side. I personally would take this trigger over a heavy mil-spec AR trigger, but that's personal preference.
- As a righty, my right shoulder gets a bit tired after shouldering it for a bit. This is likely due to the LOP being about an inch to an inch and a half longer than "ideal" for me, going by the "put the butt in your elbow and your finger on the trigger" principle. By comparison, a fully extended AR carbine stock feels just about perfect for me.
- As an AR guy, the ergos don't bother me one bit. Support hand is a bit further back than on an AR, but you can easily drop the mag with your index finger without removing your hand from the grip, and you can easily bump the bolt release in sort of one motion while loading a mag.
- A lot of people replace the grip, but the current cutlass-style grip is actually pretty decent, just lacking texture. Not sure if I'll replace it or not. Plenty of room if you shoot gloved.
- Even with 16" barrel, this thing is short. 27 1/2" tip to stern. I'm a big shoulder/deep chested guy, and I can move through a door sideways with it shouldered.
- The flip up irons are pretty trick. Rear is a fixed peep but front is elevation adjustable with no tools. Don't expect to be able to use them unless using a red dot that mounts further forward than the prism in the photo, though.
- I have zero need for one of the aftermarket mlok handguards, but the provided pic rails on the side/bottom are the absolute bare minimum length most people could probably tolerate. They are sized exactly to the length needed to get the pic rail pressure switch mounts on there.
- I like that the side rails and bottom rail come off independently. I will leave it configured with sides off and bottom on.
- Side charging handle is ergonomic but stiff. May break in some with use, but definitely takes more effort to charge than an AR.
- Cheek weld is dead on with whatever size mount comes on the Primary Arms prisms out of the box.
- Probably surpasses my Scorpion with HBI handguard as coolest looking gun I have. My wife described it as "wicked looking".

 

[VA_GENTLEMAN]

I like the Bullpup design. 16" barrel meets the current law, (I was thinking exactly 2 days ago that since the ATF gave BS responses on Braces; this will be their next category to go after as this is a complete system and cannot be modified to reach a certain length -- a full gun reg vs. a part; the next evolution in choking our rights)

I shot a PS90 with a red dot to 200 Meters on Steel. The 5.7 has a unique crack downrange... the crack that says I have speed and I a moving.

I see the PS90 as the personal defense, CQB, and useful in certain scenarios. I dig the ergo, but would I after 1000 rounds? (Fun as hell though.)

The triggers all suck.... I think that is why they hold 1.5 - 5 moa at 100 yards, but I could be wrong.

I have been thinking PS90 for a while... but I really don't want to add another caliber.... but at least it is catching on; so maybe ammo price will come down.

 

[Exspiravit]

Finally pulled the trigger on the X95. IMO, this is the way to go if you want the shortest possible setup without having an SBR.

- Surprisingly heavy, even with an empty mag. Definitely no AR featherweight, but not that noticeable once shouldered.
- Build quality seems good. Plastics are solid, everything feels substantial, especially in comparison to other polymer guns. No shakes/rattles.
- Trigger description of "Glock-like" is pretty accurate. Good bit of take up, some creep, medium-light weight but predictable release. Reset is on the long side. I personally would take this trigger over a heavy mil-spec AR trigger, but that's personal preference.
- As a righty, my right shoulder gets a bit tired after shouldering it for a bit. This is likely due to the LOP being about an inch to an inch and a half longer than "ideal" for me, going by the "put the butt in your elbow and your finger on the trigger" principle. By comparison, a fully extended AR carbine stock feels just about perfect for me.
- As an AR guy, the ergos don't bother me one bit. Support hand is a bit further back than on an AR, but you can easily drop the mag with your index finger without removing your hand from the grip, and you can easily bump the bolt release in sort of one motion while loading a mag.
- A lot of people replace the grip, but the current cutlass-style grip is actually pretty decent, just lacking texture. Not sure if I'll replace it or not. Plenty of room if you shoot gloved.
- Even with 16" barrel, this thing is short. 27 1/2" tip to stern. I'm a big shoulder/deep chested guy, and I can move through a door sideways with it shouldered.
- The flip up irons are pretty trick. Rear is a fixed peep but front is elevation adjustable with no tools. Don't expect to be able to use them unless using a red dot that mounts further forward than the prism in the photo, though.
- I have zero need for one of the aftermarket mlok handguards, but the provided pic rails on the side/bottom are the absolute bare minimum length most people could probably tolerate. They are sized exactly to the length needed to get the pic rail pressure switch mounts on there.
- I like that the side rails and bottom rail come off independently. I will leave it configured with sides off and bottom on.
- Side charging handle is ergonomic but stiff. May break in some with use, but definitely takes more effort to charge than an AR.
- Cheek weld is dead on with whatever size mount comes on the Primary Arms prisms out of the box.
- Probably surpasses my Scorpion with HBI handguard as coolest looking gun I have. My wife described it as "wicked looking".


View attachment 604215

Post some groups when you start shooting it.
I'm curious if the one I had that did 4 inch groups at fifty yards was a fluke or representative of these rifles.

 

[Supermatch]

Post some groups when you start shooting it.
I'm curious if the one I had that did 4 inch groups at fifty yards was a fluke or representative of these rifles.

If I can’t get tighter groups than 4 moa, it’s going back to IWI for service.

 

[NCLivingBrit]

Everyone forgets the fs2000, tactical tuna!!

I really wish I'd jumped on one when they were dumping them cheap.

 

[Supermatch]

Post some groups when you start shooting it.
I'm curious if the one I had that did 4 inch groups at fifty yards was a fluke or representative of these rifles.

FWIW, given that they are a 1:7 twist, I suspect they will do much better with bullets in the 69+ grain range than they will 55 gr. bulk ammo. Did you try anything heavier?

 

[Exspiravit]

FWIW, given that they are a 1:7 twist, I suspect they will do much better with bullets in the 69+ grain range than they will 55 gr. bulk ammo. Did you try anything heavier?

Tried several weights and brands. My parts bin 1/7 AR outshot it.
My luck, I got the last one they made on Friday.

 

[dlbt21]

Is the juice worth the squeeze. I’ve never played with one, which puts it square on my “must have” list.

If I’m not kicking down doors and clearing rooms, what’s the point? Are they fun or just utilitarian?

Is Tavor the only real option or are others a decent buy?

To be honest I have been kicking around the idea of buying a Tavor bullpup. At less that $300 it would be a fun experiment.

 

[Supermatch]

To be honest I have been kicking around the idea of buying a Tavor bullpup. At less that $300 it would be a fun experiment.

Where the heck are you finding a sub $300 Tavor?

 

[Walkabout Dan]

I like the Bullpup design. 16" barrel meets the current law, (I was thinking exactly 2 days ago that since the ATF gave BS responses on Braces; this will be their next category to go after as this is a complete system and cannot be modified to reach a certain length -- a full gun reg vs. a part; the next evolution in choking our rights)

I shot a PS90 with a red dot to 200 Meters on Steel. The 5.7 has a unique crack downrange... the crack that says I have speed and I a moving.

I see the PS90 as the personal defense, CQB, and useful in certain scenarios. I dig the ergo, but would I after 1000 rounds? (Fun as hell though.)

The triggers all suck.... I think that is why they hold 1.5 - 5 moa at 100 yards, but I could be wrong.

I have been thinking PS90 for a while... but I really don't want to add another caliber.... but at least it is catching on; so maybe ammo price will come down.

Out of all of them , the MDRX has the best trigger. Better than a lot of base model factory bolt rifles.

 

[JBoyette]

Springfield, Hellion, Semi-automatic Rifle, Bullpup, 223 Remington/556NATO, 16" Hammer Forged Barrel, 1:7 Twist, 4 Prong Flash Hider, Matte Finish, Black, BCM MOD 3 Grip, 5-Position Adjustable Stock with Cheek Riser, Front/Rear Flip Sights, 2-Position Short Stroke Gas Piston, Ambidextrous Safety, Ambidextrous Charging Handle, MLOK Handguard Reversible Ejection System, 30 Rounds, 1 Gen3 Magpul PMAG

$2K shipped to your FFL.

I got a supplier with 183 in stock right now FYI.

John

 

[Tim]

Springfield, Hellion, Semi-automatic Rifle, Bullpup, 223 Remington/556NATO, 16" Hammer Forged Barrel, 1:7 Twist, 4 Prong Flash Hider, Matte Finish, Black, BCM MOD 3 Grip, 5-Position Adjustable Stock with Cheek Riser, Front/Rear Flip Sights, 2-Position Short Stroke Gas Piston, Ambidextrous Safety, Ambidextrous Charging Handle, MLOK Handguard Reversible Ejection System, 30 Rounds, 1 Gen3 Magpul PMAG

$2K shipped to your FFL.

I got a supplier with 183 in stock right now FYI.

John

If I was going to buy one, it would be this one.

 

[JBoyette]

If I was going to buy one, it would be this one.

Agree,
It's unique and has all the right G36 elements

 

[Tim]

The Hellion is fresh in my memory, and that one isn't a problem.

Dan...I wanna shoot your Hellion. Can I buy you lunch and a day at the range?

 

[Get Off My Lawn]

Agree,
It's unique and has all the right G36 elements

Is there any way, like a different stock, to shorten the LOP?

 

[Dan0311]

Dan...I wanna shoot your Hellion. Can I buy you lunch and a day at the range?

Of course. But no need to buy me anything.
PM me and we'll make it happen.