CMP Surplus Ammo

Any reason to order from the CMP when same pricing is available on from the commercial market? I priced out .30 cal ammo and it was a wash.
 
Apologies, I just purchased commercial.30 cal ammo. Was not aware of difference b/w mil-surp and commercial ammunition. Is there a difference in performance? Appreciated
 
Jaguar457 said:
Apologies, I just purchased commercial.30 cal ammo. Was not aware of difference b/w mil-surp and commercial ammunition. Is there a difference in performance? Appreciated
Click to expand...
No apologies! :)

There is not so much difference in performance for commercial ammo versus military-surplus where .30 cal rifles are concerned, namely the M1 Carbine, but it is nice to put in the gun what was made for it in the period in which it was made - less chance of damaging a decades-old firearm first and foremost.

I've run commercial and mil-surp ammo through a 30 carbine with no issues, but I stick to mil-surp ammo exclusively for an M1 Garand. The M1 Garand was mostly chambered in 30-06, but modern (commercial) 30-06 ammo will likely damage the firearm. Military-surplus ammunition makes more sense, and that's what many of us buy for those rifles.

Prices for ammo for both of those rifles have been INSANE lately, so I was happy to get a 400-ct box for about $421 shipped to my door. As for my 30 carbine, it gets steady doses of Remington 110gr RN commercial ammo, and it will get those reloaded in the future, but I still see as much as $3 to $4 per round for 30 cal ammo, thus my question about where you were buying.

S
 
jcornSS said:
What do you think chamber pressure is going to do to the garand?
Click to expand...
It's pretty well-documented that excessive pressures can, and do, bend and break operating rods regardless of spring rates and the amount of grease applied to the appropriate areas. If it wasn't an issue, there would be no need for variable gas plugs on these rifles.
Shoot what you'd like to shoot in your rifle; I'll follow the conventional wisdom and not push the issue with my rifle, a rifle that was made some 83 years ago.
 
Last edited:
Lots of people have ideas in their heads that are not backed up by evidence. Is WW2 ammo a lighter load than today's ammo? That seems like a good question to have SME talk about. I would be interested in hearing facts. I want to get a Garand and the idea that i have to buy old ammo for my gun seems odd.
 
Variable said:
Lots of people have ideas in their heads that are not backed up by evidence. Is WW2 ammo a lighter load than today's ammo? That seems like a good question to have SME talk about. I would be interested in hearing facts. I want to get a Garand and the idea that i have to buy old ammo for my gun seems odd.
Click to expand...
Lighter load? As I understand the data, yes, but do your own research and fire whatever you want in YOUR gun.
There are commercial manufacturers making ammo today specifically for the M1 Garand; Sellier & Bellot and Winchester come to mind. Neither would make that ammo if there wasn't a need/demand for it.
I really didn't get into this discussion to have a debate. You folks can put whatever you desire into your pistols and rifles; we all can for that matter. At the end of the day, I know my firearms are not going to be damaged because I use what they were made for, OR I load ammunition to published load data. You do you.
I'm out.
 
jcornSS said:
Commercial ammo will not harm your Garand. Make sure your recoil spring is in spec and the rifle is properly greased.
Click to expand...

^^ Blanket statements like this are bad advice. The user manual that the CMP ships with every Garand contains the following statement concerning commercial ammo:

“If commercial 30–06 ammunition is used, select loadings with bullets no heavier than 180 gr. Firing bullets greater than 180 gr is not unsafe, but may develop residual pressures at the gas port near the muzzle. This can damage the operating rod, necessitating its replacement.”

jcornSS said:
What do you think chamber pressure is going to do to the garand?
Click to expand...

It is well documented that 50,000 PSI (not CUP) is generally safe to use in the M1. The maximum SAAMI pressure for 30-06 is 60,000 PSI which is 10,000 higher.

Hornady, Freedom Munitions, American Eagle, Prvi Partizan, Winchester, etc. wouldn't be producing M1 specific ammo if there was no issue in using any commercial ammo in a Garand.
Schuster Mfg. has been making and selling their popular Schuster Gas Plug to use in the M1 forever. The gas plug's sole purpose for being invented in the first place was to keep the op rod from being battered by the excessive pressure of 50K+ pressure commercial ammo.
 
Last edited:
I'm impressed by the amount of knowledge out there in this community if I do ever decide to get a Garand (likely). To answer the question about M1 .30 carbine ammo, I most recently have purchased from a company called AEAmmo out of Indiana for about $33/box of 50 for FMJ rounds ($0.66/rd). They have flat rate shipping at $15 I believe. https://www.aeammo.com/search?q=.30+carbine

Cheers
 
I'm impressed by the amount of knowledge out there in this community if I do ever decide to get a Garand (likely). To answer the question about M1 .30 carbine ammo, I most recently have purchased from a company called AEAmmo out of Indiana for about $33/box of 50 for FMJ rounds ($0.66/rd). They have flat rate shipping at $15 I believe.
 
For me, any issue with commercial ammo in a Garand is moot, because there are enough universally accepted "safe" options out there that I have no need to run 200+ grain hunting ammo through any of my Garands. The bigger issue for me is folks buying cheap foreign surplus ammo without researching same and just assuming it is safe because it is for sale on the open market. There have been documented cases of bad lots of Korean surplus ammo and also documented cases of brittle brass failures in some lots of Turkish (MKE) ammo. The formula for safely shooting a Garand really is no different than any other firearm. Keep it in good, properly maintained working order, don't run sketchy ammo in it and don't push its safety limits where there is no need to do so.
 
Handloading Garand ammo is easy to set up.
Just follow the loading manuals that have specific Garand loading sections. Hornady is one of them. While the typical Garand load has been made using IMR-4895, or IMR-4064, it doesn’t have to be. Varget works well, as do other powders in the burning rate range of IMR-4895. Unfortunately, IMR-4895,H-4895 and IMR-4064 have gone MIA. Either they have been discontinued, or the Canadian company that made them is having problems.
Vihtavouri also makes powders that safely work the M-1. N-150 works well with 168 grain bullets.
My Garands shoot well with the 168 grain Sierra Matchking BTHP and Varget. I use the CCI NATO primer to minimize chances of SlamFires, which soft Federal primers have been known for every so often.
Some target shooters like using light 125 to 155 grain bullets in the M-1, as it lessens recoil. These are fine for 200 yard matches, but struggle to group well at the 600 yard range.
 
East of Here said:
For me, any issue with commercial ammo in a Garand is moot, because there are enough universally accepted "safe" options out there that I have no need to run 200+ grain hunting ammo through any of my Garands. The bigger issue for me is folks buying cheap foreign surplus ammo without researching same and just assuming it is safe because it is for sale on the open market. There have been documented cases of bad lots of Korean surplus ammo and also documented cases of brittle brass failures in some lots of Turkish (MKE) ammo. The formula for safely shooting a Garand really is no different than any other firearm. Keep it in good, properly maintained working order, don't run sketchy ammo in it and don't push its safety limits where there is no need to do so.
Click to expand...

Roger that! I buy ONLY Lake City ammo from the 1960s. I have thousands of rounds of it, and my M1 sings a sweet song with it with every trigger pull.......................
 
CapeFearElvis said:
Roger that! I buy ONLY Lake City ammo from the 1960s. I have thousands of rounds of it, and my M1 sings a sweet song with it with every trigger pull.......................
Click to expand...
I banked a lot of Greek HXP, then added a few crates of Remington and this latest batch of Lake City from CMP. I picked up a few boxes of Turkish MKE somewhere, but it is all getting pulled down and reloaded into HXP brass.
 
East of Here said:
I banked a lot of Greek HXP, then added a few crates of Remington and this latest batch of Lake City from CMP. I picked up a few boxes of Turkish MKE somewhere, but it is all getting pulled down and reloaded into HXP brass.
Click to expand...
I'm curious: why do you pull it all down and reload it?
 
railsplitter said:
^^ Blanket statements like this are bad advice. The user manual that the CMP ships with every Garand contains the following statement concerning commercial ammo:

“If commercial 30–06 ammunition is used, select loadings with bullets no heavier than 180 gr. Firing bullets greater than 180 gr is not unsafe, but may develop residual pressures at the gas port near the muzzle. This can damage the operating rod, necessitating its replacement.”



It is well documented that 50,000 PSI (not CUP) is generally safe to use in the M1. The maximum SAAMI pressure for 30-06 is 60,000 PSI which is 10,000 higher.

Hornady, Freedom Munitions, American Eagle, Prvi Partizan, Winchester, etc. wouldn't be producing M1 specific ammo if there was no issue in using any commercial ammo in a Garand.
Schuster Mfg. has been making and selling their popular Schuster Gas Plug to use in the M1 forever. The gas plug's sole purpose for being invented in the first place was to keep the op rod from being battered by the excessive pressure of 50K+ pressure commercial ammo.
Click to expand...

On the "sketchy ammo" theme: I was at James River Armory (JRA) in Burgaw, NC yesterday (Mar 14) talking with Mark and Spencer about many things, but we covered Garand ammo, chamber pressures, and what can "go wrong". Keep in mind that JRA not only restores military rifles, and has for decades, but manufactures reproductions to exacting specifications as well.

They showed me photos of an M1 rifle they just repaired that had the stock blown apart and op-rod destroyed by an owner using ammo from which the source was unknown (may have even been reloads in the mix of cartridges given to the owner in a bag and fired on the day of the damage). JRA was able to repair the rifle, but the ordeal highlighted what can "go wrong" with the wrong ammo. They also pointed out that chamber pressure increasing from 50,000psi to 60,000psi is, after all, a full 20% increase in pressure and that's NOT insignificant!
 
If you are using SAAMI spec ammo, it's by definition not "excessive pressure". Plus you mention chamber pressure. Chamber pressure completely irrelevant in the context of the op rod. And go ahead and show me these bent and broken op rods that are a result of using the "wrong ammo". Go ahead. Google is your friend.
CapeFearElvis said:
It's pretty well-documented that excessive pressures can, and do, bend and break operating rods regardless of spring rates and the amount of grease applied to the appropriate areas. If it wasn't an issue, there would be no need for variable gas plugs on these rifles.
Shoot what you'd like to shoot in your rifle; I'll follow the conventional wisdom and not push the issue with my rifle, a rifle that was made some 83 years ago.
Click to expand...
 
Variable said:
Lots of people have ideas in their heads that are not backed up by evidence. Is WW2 ammo a lighter load than today's ammo? That seems like a good question to have SME talk about. I would be interested in hearing facts. I want to get a Garand and the idea that i have to buy old ammo for my gun seems odd.
Click to expand...
The garand was designed in the era of M1 ball. M1 ball is a ~174gr bullet moving around 2600fps measured something like 96ft from the muzzle. It's no slouch. Internet fudd lore has pushed the notion that only M2 ball should be used. John Garand himself didn't them very highly of M2 ball. Also fun fact, most of the ammo issued in WW2 was M2AP, a 165gr bullet at ~2700fps....also no slouch.
 
Last edited:
jcornSS said:
If you are using SAAMI spec ammo, it's by definition not "excessive pressure". Plus you mention chamber pressure. Chamber pressure completely irrelevant in the context of the op rod. And go ahead and show me these bent and broken op rods that are a result of using the "wrong ammo". Go ahead. Google is your friend.
Click to expand...
Go argue with your wife or your boyfriend; I'm not interested.
If you don't understand chamber pressures, that's on you.
Last, Google is NOT anyone's friend.
Maybe you should do some research on both subjects. Good day.
 
CapeFearElvis said:
On the "sketchy ammo" theme: I was at James River Armory (JRA) in Burgaw, NC yesterday (Mar 14) talking with Mark and Spencer about many things, but we covered Garand ammo, chamber pressures, and what can "go wrong". Keep in mind that JRA not only restores military rifles, and has for decades, but manufactures reproductions to exacting specifications as well.

They showed me photos of an M1 rifle they just repaired that had the stock blown apart and op-rod destroyed by an owner using ammo from which the source was unknown (may have even been reloads in the mix of cartridges given to the owner in a bag and fired on the day of the damage). JRA was able to repair the rifle, but the ordeal highlighted what can "go wrong" with the wrong ammo. They also pointed out that chamber pressure increasing from 50,000psi to 60,000psi is, after all, a full 20% increase in pressure and that's NOT insignificant!
Click to expand...
A rifle blown apart in that way had some sort of significant failure, not simply using commercial ammo. Sounds of a case head rupture which has been reported in some lots of MKE ammo.
 
CapeFearElvis said:
Go argue with your wife or your boyfriend; I'm not interested.
If you don't understand chamber pressures, that's on you.
Last, Google is NOT anyone's friend.
Maybe you should do some research on both subjects. Good day.
Click to expand...
Explain chamber pressure's affect on the op rod.
 
railsplitter said:
^^ Blanket statements like this are bad advice. The user manual that the CMP ships with every Garand contains the following statement concerning commercial ammo:

“If commercial 30–06 ammunition is used, select loadings with bullets no heavier than 180 gr. Firing bullets greater than 180 gr is not unsafe, but may develop residual pressures at the gas port near the muzzle. This can damage the operating rod, necessitating its replacement.”



It is well documented that 50,000 PSI (not CUP) is generally safe to use in the M1. The maximum SAAMI pressure for 30-06 is 60,000 PSI which is 10,000 higher.

Hornady, Freedom Munitions, American Eagle, Prvi Partizan, Winchester, etc. wouldn't be producing M1 specific ammo if there was no issue in using any commercial ammo in a Garand.
Schuster Mfg. has been making and selling their popular Schuster Gas Plug to use in the M1 forever. The gas plug's sole purpose for being invented in the first place was to keep the op rod from being battered by the excessive pressure of 50K+ pressure commercial ammo.
Click to expand...
Right. Going by CMPs own statement, that includes all SAAMI spec 30-06 ammo. And where is it stated the Garand is limited to 50k psi?
 
jcornSS said:
A rifle blown apart in that way had some sort of significant failure, not simply using commercial ammo. Sounds of a case head rupture which has been reported in some lots of MKE ammo.
Click to expand...
He specifically stated that it was not commercial ammo. It was some sketchy stuff the dude found.
 
Jaguar457 said:
I'm impressed by the amount of knowledge out there in this community if I do ever decide to get a Garand (likely). To answer the question about M1 .30 carbine ammo, I most recently have purchased from a company called AEAmmo out of Indiana for about $33/box of 50 for FMJ rounds ($0.66/rd). They have flat rate shipping at $15 I believe.
Click to expand...
Yeah there usually is alaways somebody on here with the answer that you are looking for.
 
jcornSS said:
Right. Going by CMPs own statement, that includes all SAAMI spec 30-06 ammo. And where is it stated the Garand is limited to 50k psi?
Click to expand...


Pretty good chance that content was produced more by a couple of lawyers than one of their armorers.

.
 
jcornSS said:
Right. Going by CMPs own statement, that includes all SAAMI spec 30-06 ammo. And where is it stated the Garand is limited to 50k psi?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what else to tell you. The CMP statement is very clear regarding commercial ammo. Go over to their forum and argue with them if you want.
 
Lots of misinformation going on in here...I'll try and summarize it for you.

First off...the garand was designed for Ball, M1. 174gr at ~2700fps MV. M2 ball didn't show up until the garand was already in troops hands. M2 ball was created primarily because the National Guard found out that M1 ball ( a ballistically superior round) was outshooting the NG range safety fans. They (the NG) asked for more of the old M1906 ball ammo to be made so they could train with it and save the M1 ball for wartime use. Long story short this "new" M1906 ball became M2 ball and it was cheaper to produce than M1 Ball and there was a shift in tactics the led to M2 ball becoming standard issue in 1940. M2 AP (165gr at 2775fps MV was consider THE combat load).

On the subject of "chamber pressure". The garand was designed around the max SAAMI spec for 30-06 of 50,000 CUP. CUP is Copper units of pressure expressed in psi. Later on in the 80's new testing devices using piezoelectric transducers came into use. These transducers caused SAAMI to revisit all of their max limits as the transducers measured pressures differently. This confusion persists today especially in "THIS" conversation.

30-06 Max SAAMI spec is:
50,000CUP
60,180psi

However prior to the new piezoelectric transducers being used chamber pressure was simply written in "psi" since everyone (at the time) used the copper crusher method. Hence our confusion today. Old army manuals say 50,000 psi is the max chamber pressure for the garand...then they look over and see the "max " pressure is 60k! OMG the garand can't handle "modern ammo". Ian at forgotten weapons is mostly to blame for spreading this incorrect myth.


Anyone who thinks the garand is limited to 50,000 psi chamber pressure needs to go back and hit the books.


Now the real pressure that is of concern to us Garand shooters is the "port" pressure. This is the pressure from the gasses of the propellants and it is what drives the action. However over the years there has been mostly "talk" and opinion on what is or isn't safe. I can tell you this. Military ammo and commercial ammo (even ammo up to 220grs) operate at similar port pressures to each other. Some commercial ammo creates about ~5% or so more port pressure than the highest milsurp ammo. So not really a big deal.


The biggest key in keeping your garand operating correctly and with no excessive wear is to ensure the oprod spring is at least 19.5" long and the rifle is properly "greased" not "oiled".
 
CapeFearElvis said:
It's pretty well-documented that excessive pressures can, and do, bend and break operating rods regardless of spring rates and the amount of grease applied to the appropriate areas.
Click to expand...
Its not really documented at all...

CapeFearElvis said:
If it wasn't an issue, there would be no need for variable gas plugs on these rifles.
Click to expand...

There isn't a need for them....except for the maker to get money out of your pocket into theirs because they have given you a fear you will need their product otherwise every time you shoot commercial ammo in your unmodified garand a kitten will die.

CapeFearElvis said:
Shoot what you'd like to shoot in your rifle; I'll follow the conventional wisdom and not push the issue with my rifle, a rifle that was made some 83 years ago.
Click to expand...
conventional wisdom can be wrong....
 
Variable said:
Lots of people have ideas in their heads that are not backed up by evidence. Is WW2 ammo a lighter load than today's ammo? That seems like a good question to have SME talk about. I would be interested in hearing facts. I want to get a Garand and the idea that i have to buy old ammo for my gun seems odd.
Click to expand...
military 30-06 and commercial 30-06 both have the same max limits for chamber pressure... 50k CUP or 60k psi depending on which book you look into. Port pressures are also similar across the board.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom