3-Gun....Why have you stopped, or, why have you never tried it?

I don't have a .223 poodle shooter. My rifles are 7.62 nato. My "AR" is a pistol chambered for 9mm. I've got a .30 carbine too. No shotgun either.
 
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Never tried 3 gun because of the number of rounds.
Might not get into it now due to the cost.

If a match was designed for moderate round count and be challenging (fun) I'd be willing to take a look.
 
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rdinatal said:
Never tried 3 gun because of the number of rounds.
Might not get into it now due to the cost.

If a match was designed for moderate round count and be challenging (fun) I'd be willing to take a look.
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It’s possible - we adjusted round counts for our 3 gun match down to
50 shotgun
75 rifle
75 pistol
You can make this fun with lots of transitions and movement. We use a mix os steel and paper
 
Fred said:
I shot a few 3 guns a decade ago and haven't been back now that I have the time, mostly because of the shotgun logistics.

I used a pump 20 GA 870 with an extended 7rd tube. No sights, no loading attachments, nothing. To be competitive, I'd have to have an autoloader, work on it until it was reliable(and IIRC most of them were not reliable before work and were picky with ammo after. Even my 870 pump had issues), get sights, find an ammunition brand that worked, get a mag tube extender. Then get a shell holders and/or those fancy vests with shells in rows clipped to the front. Not to be competitive with the magfeds or the fancy loading devices, just to have a better chance at shooting the stage under par time.

Shotgun shells are money I'd rather spend practicing rifle and pistol, as those are my important self defense guns. Adding a shotgun, shells, slugs, shell holders etc to my gear means I have to have a separate 3 gun belt instead of just using my regular rifle/pistol gear that's full already. I've shot many rimfire two guns with one large bag and one rifle case to carry everything. If I add a shotgun and paraphernalia to that, I might have to look at getting a tactical stroller gun cart to haul all the stuff between stages. I remember carts being almost necessary for 3 gun. Everyone had one.

Then there's the match format. TH3G got quite a bit more expensive and pro gamer focused, and the matches were always more shooting gallery and less defense oriented. To get a shotgun and start a 3G series again would mean putting a lot of money and time into a firearm and ammo I don't consider serious. I'd rather shoot 5.56 through my rifles at a more practical match.

If there were a "practical" 2 gun match with more emphasis on cheap self-defense/"combat" style shooting near RTP, I'd be very interested.

It's too bad Tim is 3 hrs away. And I'm still thinking of going.
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Central Carolina Gun Club has a monthly 2gun match you might enjoy. Very relaxed compared to 3gun and doesn't usually take all day.
 
Timfoilhat said:
I don't have a .223 poodle shooter. My rifles are 7.62 nato. My "AR" is a pistol chambered for 9mm. I've got a .30 carbine too. No shotgun either.
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They do have "heavy metal" divisions in multigun. 762 rifle, 45acp pistol, and a pump shotgun.
 
Honestly, it is because I am barely mobile sometimes and I'm concerned that there is too much movement. In general, my hips are bad enough that I now carry mostly in a shoulder holster. Not having a stage timer would be a feature that might make me try 2 gun.
 
I started getting into "gun sports" to do 3 gun/2 gun (before I fell in love with Pistols). Only reason I haven't taken the steps to get into one yet is I don't own a rifle :O. Current problem if that was solved though is my shotgun is a 20ga and I cannot find anything other then turkey shot (for over $1), even target shot online is hard to score. Production can't keep up with 12ga so I guess they just are not making any 20 right now.

Where in WNC?
 
Wow! How did I miss this last night...

I'm interested. I shot a few indoor pistol matches about 10 years ago, liked it, then life intervened. Three major reasons I've never tried 3-gun: time, money, and distance.

I'm not interested in winning prizes or rockin' the Logo-est outfit; I want to learn & practice using my tools and hang with the cool kids.

I no longer have an autoloader shotgun; if pumps can be accommodated, that'd be a bonus. Or 2-gun. I like the Friday Night "intro" plan! Newbies like to have an idea of what to expect.
 
NKD said:
They do have "heavy metal" divisions in multigun. 762 rifle, 45acp pistol, and a pump shotgun.
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I'm not cool enough to have a 1911 in .45 because I really like the Beretta 92 (programmed in as a child of the 70s).
 
Call it a 'Shoot What You Bring' match. That's kinda the way FTR started at Butner so long as it was 223 or 308. Then here came the damn equipment race. Hard to take a 1 minute gun and complete with a half minute gun no matter how good the shooter is.
 
DonRavioli said:
Biggest reason why I've never tried 3 gun, I don't own a autoloader-shotgun.
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People will offer to kit you out. We have very generous friends on here!
I was offered a rifle and all the "stuff" if I was curious about a 2 gun match. I intend to do one someday, for sure.
 
DonRavioli said:
Biggest reason why I've never tried 3 gun, I don't own a autoloader-shotgun.
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Don’t let that stop you. Pump guns are great, and if you really want to run an auto-loader, I have one to loan.
 
A few things to consider if building a new match-

Most folks that dont like 3gun are shotgun averse. A good match director can accommodate 2gun shooters inside of 3gun match by making an "options based" match. Meaning, certain targets get a variety of ways to be engaged.

For instance, paper is often pistol, rifle or slug. KO steel would be pistol or birdshot. Far steel would be 1 rifle, 1 slug or 2 pistol hits. The only time a shotgun target is mandated would be flying clay or stationary clay. If you limit the amount of SG only targets but still make it a 3 gun match (with appropriate, commonly accepted divisions based on equipment) then each shooter can approach each stage the way they choose based on their shooting ability.

Or simply eliminate all of the shotgun only targets in your entire match and call it a multigun match that 2gunners and 3gunners can both attend, again, with commonly accepted divisions so that $3k+ dissidents arent eating 870 pumps.

As far as squadding and rotation goes each squad needs to be self sufficient and contain dedicated match staff to keep things running smoothly. Shotgun start (no pun intended) and rotate until all stages are shot. The idea of a free-for-all style shoot the stages in any order will (imo) create the worst cluster you have ever seen and absolutely burn out the staff running the show.

There are a lot of good rule sets out there. The original 3GN rule set is great, but it is based on a pure 3gun match where shotguns are required and some stages will be shotgun only.

UML has a rule set with provisions to nest 2gun inside 3gun and is very popular out west. They also have crazy divisions like 2x4 that allow those with all the gear to bring their PCC along with the rest of the 3gun gear...but that just crazy talk!

Ultimately, you have to build a match based on your market of shooters. If they dont want shotgun at all? Build a great 2gun match and roll with it. There are lots of clever ways to structure matches to de-escalate the equipment race that became 3gun most people know.

Lastly, I know why you are pondering a WNC match right now and I tip my hat to you, sir. Good luck!
 
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On the "equipment race":
Every 3 gun match I have ever been to has a "factory" division, like Tim has listed above. This is about as basic as can be. 15 round pistol mags, 30 round magpul AR mags, and 8 round shotgun tubes. Rifle is limited to one 1x optic (red dot or even irons).

I think there are misconceptions that if you bring your Mossberg 930, Glock, and basic AR carbine that you are up against mag fed custom shotguns and spendy rifles with multiple optics, 60 round drum mags, race pistols with dots, etc. But you are not. You are competing against only those in your division. Will some guys have better gear than you? Most definitely. Does that mean they will shoot better? Most definitely NOT.

The best shooters win because they are the best shooters. Not because they have the best equipment. You can count on it. If you have gear limitations, you will find people tripping over themselves to help you to have a good time.
Don't let your equipment be an excuse not to try practical shooting.
 
Prudii said:
Could there be a classic division for 1945 and before stuff? Its pretty popular for the inrange brutality matches to do themed loadouts.
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I’m contemplating a “Bad Ass” division - entry solely at discretion of the MD (me). Think, levers, bolts, Garands, revolvers.....

I need to be careful trying to accommodate EVERY scenario to the detriment of the match as a whole.

that said, since I would not be prize table/trophy eligible...I’m already planning to run with a bolt action scout rifle, .45ACP revolver and an old Ithaca pump.
 
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I appreciate someone stepping up for this, especially in my neck of the woods. I don’t have any practical input to offer since it don’t have any competitive experience, I’d just be wary of trying to do too much, especially in a first event.

As long as everyone understands for the first time or two that things will go wrong/long and to be part of the solution instead of just a complainer, I think it’ll be fine.
 
NKD said:
The best shooters win because they are the best shooters. Not because they have the best equipment. You can count on it. If you have gear limitations, you will find people tripping over themselves to help you to have a good time.
Don't let your equipment be an excuse not to try practical shooting.
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Can not emphasize this enough.

Generally, i have found the 3gun community to be some of the most generous people with regard to sharing equipment and on boarding new shooters into the game.
 
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It’s gotten kind of like the Team Penning that I used to do when I was younger. It was fun when it first started but as it went on and the money was there, ringers brought in reining horses and real cowboys and won every single week. Pretty soon, no one was showing up to get fleeced.
 
I see the key from start to end 3 hour range time. Less then a 5-6 hour total day comment.
-Most drive 1 hour + each way to home to range
- Registration should start at 8am ends at 8:30am. Range overall Safety brief 8:30-8:45am
- First rounds down range 9am last stage ends between 1-2pm
- Par-time, squad size and SMART stage reset is key to a fast match
- get out of the sun before the heat really kicks in

John
 
When the North Carolina police pistol combat league went to the three gun match I tried it a couple of times but it was so daggone expensive for ammo I had to quit. I bought a new handgun Smith & Wesson pro series M&P a new Benelli M2 and an AR rifle but I couldn't afford to ammo to put in them. 100+ rounds of 9mm ,50 rounds of 223 and 30 to 50 rounds o birdshot , buckshot and slugs. Plus $20 entry fee. That was when 223 was getting scarce and hard to find because of Obama.
 
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I hear y'all about ammo costs. Not much we can do about that right now, other than to say that shooting the stuff is way more fun than watching it sit on the shelf.

My goal would be to come up with stages that require a bit of thought without just being 'hosers'.
 
i think youll still want to have an open division as a catch all for equipment that is clearly not suitable for use in limited divisions. im not sure what the specifics of the range or operation you are running, but participation is what makes matches last. the more shooters you have each month the better.

You can limit the other divisions in a way that they reach/include a broader group of shooters. For instance, PHA used to run a true "centerfire irons" division. No optics allowed. It was certainly was less popular than the optics division but plenty of dudes showed up to shoot irons only guns without having to worry about directly competing with red dots or scopes. the more specific a limited division is the more likely you are to see higher participation from the basic AR and handgun crowd if you shape a division that is designed to be just for them.

Should you decide to include shotguns, all divisions (except open) should be 8rds in the tube max. easy delineation between an open mag fed shotgun and tube fed. That will aid in stage design that doesn't require a lot of reloading of shotgun and allows the use of more standard tube capacities for those that dont mod their shotguns.

divisions arent what draws the high speed guys. creative and challenging stages are what retains regulars at matches, high speed dudes or otherwise.
 
I've done 2 gun but never three gun. Like said above, I've never cared to put in the time nor money in the shotgun side of things. I have a Maverick 88 pump, that's it, and am willing to use it, but I'm just not interested in buying auto shotguns, or a bunch of gizmos for something that I rarely shoot. Buuuuut, in saying all that, I would be willing to give this a try just for the fun of it. Looks to be about 2 hours aways from me. Looking at the schedule, I'll just make a little get away for it and spend the weekend in the mountains and have fun all around.

Sent from my moto g power (XT2041DL) using Tapatalk
 
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Here is my idea.
I listened to David Goggins on JRE podcast and became obsessed with building an insane race based on 3 Gun, just way harder.

I wanted to call it The Bad Man.

Each competitor starts with a minimum approved load out of pistol, shotgun, rifle, a full magazine for each weapon and 9 rounds of 1 oz. slugs for the shotgun, canteen full of water, and a cinder block. This is in addition to any ammo and equipment you will need to compete.
At the end of the race, to score any points at all, you must present the intact cinder block, a full canteen of water, all weapons, along with a full mag for each, and 9 rounds for the shotgun. This is minimum, you can add to it if you want.

the race would be something like this:
You run 5 miles with all your gear.
You hit a shooting stage, then run a mile in between.
After shooting is completed you run 5 miles back to the start.

Any takers?
I think it’s sounds awesome and also ridiculous.
 
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Spartan01 said:
Here is my idea.
I listened to David Goggins on JRE podcast and became obsessed with building an insane race based on 3 Gun, just way harder.

I wanted to call it The Bad Man.

Each competitor starts with a minimum approved load out of pistol, shotgun, rifle, a full magazine for each weapon and 9 rounds of 1 oz. slugs for the shotgun, canteen full of water, and a cinder block. This is in addition to any ammo and equipment you will need to compete.
At the end of the race, to score any points at all, you must present the intact cinder block, a full canteen of water, all weapons, along with a full mag for each, and 9 rounds for the shotgun. This is minimum, you can add to it if you want.

the race would be something like this:
You run 5 miles with all your gear.
You hit a shooting stage, then run a mile in between.
After shooting is completed you run 5 miles back to the start.

Any takers?
I think it’s sounds awesome and also ridiculous.
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Goggins/Fun

These two words above: they do not fit together in any way.
 
I'm going to add some opinion to the mix here.

1. If this match is just supposed to be fun and there is no prize purse, who cares if people bring all kinds of ridiculous race guns or not? I have shot some outlaw type 3gun matches and I never went there to win. I went to have fun, shoot my guns, and learn something. I think your divisions sound reasonable and I wouldn't want to get too far down in the weeds creating divisions for everyone to have an equal footing. I don't care about what the other guy is doing, I want to challenge myself.

When I have gotten beaten at any gun competition (which is most of the time), I know I could have traded equipment with the person who beat me and I still would have lost.

2. A good attitude goes a long way towards having fun and that is up to each competitor.

3. Good RSO's and everyone helping out to paste/reset stages after a shooter means more time shooting for everyone. I don't like slow matches where I spend too much time just sitting around.
 
Spartan01 said:
Here is my idea.
I listened to David Goggins on JRE podcast and became obsessed with building an insane race based on 3 Gun, just way harder.

I wanted to call it The Bad Man.

Each competitor starts with a minimum approved load out of pistol, shotgun, rifle, a full magazine for each weapon and 9 rounds of 1 oz. slugs for the shotgun, canteen full of water, and a cinder block. This is in addition to any ammo and equipment you will need to compete.
At the end of the race, to score any points at all, you must present the intact cinder block, a full canteen of water, all weapons, along with a full mag for each, and 9 rounds for the shotgun. This is minimum, you can add to it if you want.

the race would be something like this:
You run 5 miles with all your gear.
You hit a shooting stage, then run a mile in between.
After shooting is completed you run 5 miles back to the start.

Any takers?
I think it’s sounds awesome and also ridiculous.
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ummm.....pretty much did most of that last weekend. At night.

It's called Run-n-Gun or a Centerfire Biathlon
 
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Stick Man said:
I've done 2 gun but never three gun. Like said above, I've never cared to put in the time nor money in the shotgun side of things. I have a Maverick 88 pump, that's it, and am willing to use it, but I'm just not interested in buying auto shotguns, or a bunch of gizmos for something that I rarely shoot. Buuuuut, in saying all that, I would be willing to give this a try just for the fun of it. Looks to be about 2 hours aways from me. Looking at the schedule, I'll just make a little get away for it and spend the weekend in the mountains and have fun all around.

Sent from my moto g power (XT2041DL) using Tapatalk
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You don't have to have expensive shotguns. The guy from Durham won most of the matches with a Remington 870 pump with an 18 inch barrel
 
RR said:
I want a match where I run the stuff I keep for defensive purposes.
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RR said:
Essentially I'd like to see a match where you can show up with an AR with 30 round mags. A G17, and a 6 or 7 round pump or autoloader and be competitive.
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Trevillian said:
I've never known/heard of one this side of Asheville or even close. I'd like to try them out.

I would be in for a more informal type layout. Sort of a beginners match. So "simple" stages would be preferred. Just to get a good feel/idea of how it works.
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RR said:
Hell I may make the trek up there for a match like that.
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BrettB said:
it’s easy to design a match for “normal” guns - start the shotgun stage downloaded to a low round count , same with rifle and pistol.
if you design a match this way you will get more people to show up
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NCFubar said:
That sounds like a Practical 3 Gun match more than a Tacticool 3 Gun match ... Stock Class or such like you say where you use the gear you’d use at home if ever needed.
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Tim said:
This is the Vibe I want to promote.
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Chihuahua Floyd said:
Looks like fun and I would like to try it. If I can I'll be there.
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Sigogglin said:
I'm totally down for a friendly practical/stock 2 or 3-gun match.
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J R Green said:
I could be be enticed to try again with some normal folks.
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rdinatal said:
Never tried 3 gun because of the number of rounds.
Might not get into it now due to the cost.

If a match was designed for moderate round count and be challenging (fun) I'd be willing to take a look.
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Windini said:
Wow! How did I miss this last night...

I'm interested.
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Sigogglin said:
I appreciate someone stepping up for this, especially in my neck of the woods. I don’t have any practical input to offer since it don’t have any competitive experience, I’d just be wary of trying to do too much, especially in a first event.

As long as everyone understands for the first time or two that things will go wrong/long and to be part of the solution instead of just a complainer, I think it’ll be fine.
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Stick Man said:
I would be willing to give this a try just for the fun of it.
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My thoughts:

If you have a "normal" 3-gun type match, it will become an equipment/technique match. Good shooters with good gear will show up and do what they do.




From sifting through the responses here on CFF, it looks like several from CFF would do this if it was a practical "fun" match that utilized gear they already own for home defense. Something very newbie friendly and practical. I think this route would encourage more of the participation that you are looking for from forum members, newbies, and lady shooters.
If you go this route, I would suggest limiting distance with the rifle. 3-25 yards or so. Its a practical distance for a homeowner, and its fairly easy for almost anybody to go to an indoor range and get a 25 yard zero on their carbine. Not as easy for the newbies to get dope/drop figured out for distance shooting.

From a practical "homeowner" standpoint, the stages can have low round counts and no mag changes... Easy and fast to score. Just shooting....




This video from the All New CFF You Tube Channel is a good example of a practical, defensive 3- gun stage done with a low round count for newbies.

30 yards from start to finish... No mag changes... No shotgun loading... Just shooting....

 
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@Hashknife , this will likely be a 4-5 stage match with 3 “bay” stages where max distance is ~35 yards. Plus 2 natural terrain areas with possibility for rifle shots up to 700yds. We’d likely limit to ~300yds for the most part.

I’ve always found that even new shooters enjoy stretching out a little bit, so we’ll plan on a decent rifle stage for each match.
 
I believe the biggest issue facing all competitions is stage design. Some MDs believe round count equals fun, the more rounds you shoot the more fun you have. @Tim I think with some well-designed stages you can accomplish everything you are talking about without having high round counts and limiting equipment. I believe cutting your distance will be the first step. It is difficult for new shooters who have not had the time nor the practice to perform well at distance shooting in a match. They may become frustrated and think competition shooting isn't for them. Now by no means am I insinuating the stages should be super easy. They must be challenging, so design stages that challenge the person, and allow them to see personal growth and gains from match to match. I'd be down to help with RO or other logistical needs if it is on my weekend off.
 
Average Joe said:
It is difficult for new shooters who have not had the time nor the practice to perform well at distance shooting in a match.
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This will be a FUN match...as such, I’m going to allow coaching for new shooters. A 300 yard shot on an IDPA steel target is a chip shot. I LOVE LOVE LOVE getting a new user to “just try it” and see their faces light up when they hear the “ping!” With a 25yd zero, hold top edge of the target and let ‘er rip!
 
Tim - I’m a long way from you but, like @Average Joe and others, I will help out any way I can and participate if possible.

With travel being the biggest possible limiting factor, it would be great to participate in a CFF match to meet, and shoot with, all the folks on here that we interact with virtually.

I applaud your initiative and would like to see your idea become a reality!
 
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