40 vs 45

Flashpoint

Flashpoint

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We haven't had a good knock down drag out caliber debate in a while. And it's Friday, so hear we go.

All the hate for 40 out there... Why? True it's a compromise round between 9mm and 45 in terms of capacity (capacity being the real reason the cool kids went to 9mm), but not in performance. So while 45 is still lovingly referred to, 40 is dead, practially useless and you'd be stupid to buy a new gun in 40.

Someone tell me what 45 will do that 40 won't, other than give you less round capacity in your weapon.

40S&W Energy.png

45ACP Energy.png
 
Im given to understand that the hardcore competition guys LOVE .40 S&W as its a very versatile round that can be loaded up, down, to fit a wide variety of competitive applications.

That said, I sold the only .40 firearm I had along with all the oddballs. I didnt have anything against the firearm (USP 40) or round, it was just a caliber reduction thing for me. For me, its easier to buy, store, and keep track of inventory for four different calibers vs seven different calibers.
 
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Personlly I can shoot 40 pretty well, I can get back on target faster with 40 than I can 45. So I have invested recently in more 40 weapons since their prices are depressed due to the conventional wisdom, I just wish the ammo was too. It is easier to find than 9mm in a public panic though.

It makes for a pretty hard hitting carbine round too, approaching hot 10mm territory out of a handgun, so if you pistol hunt with 10mm you could do the same with a 40 carbine.
 
I think the more accurate debate comparison would be “what will the .40 do that the 9mm won’t other than give you less capacity.”

More people I know choose 9 over 40 rather than 40 over .45.


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Flashpoint said:
It makes for a pretty hard hitting carbine round too, approaching hot 10mm territory out of a handgun, so if you pistol hunt with 10mm you could do the same with a 40 carbine.
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I shot a buddy's 40 carbine a couple of time and liked it a lot.
But if Im gonna do a PCC again, its gonna be 10mm
 
draco88 said:
Im given to understand that the hardcore competition guys LOVE .40 S&W as its a very versatile round that can be loaded up, down, to fit a wide variety of competitive applications.

That said, I sold the only .40 firearm I had along with all the oddballs. I didnt have anything against the firearm (USP 40) or round, it was just a caliber reduction thing for me. For me, its easier to buy, store, and keep track of inventory for four different calibers vs seven different calibers.
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I remember way back a guy on GlockTalk saying he could load 40 way over spec, hotter than he could load 10mm. Something about the brass being thicker. Possibly that was a particular brand of brass, I don't know and I expect many would call him out on that, but that's what he said.
 
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Flashpoint said:
I remember way back a guy on GlockTalk saying he could load 40 way over spec, hotter than he could load 10mm. Something about the brass being ticker. Possibly that was a particular brand of brass, I don't know and I expect many would call him out on that, but that's what he said.
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Yeah, Id have to see that to believe it, honestly.
It may be true and it may not, but one thing I absolutely know 100% for sure: I like my fingers atrached to my hand and my face free of shrapnel.
Not gonna push my luck lol
 
B00ger said:
I think the more accurate debate comparison would be “what will the .40 do that the 9mm won’t other than give you less capacity.”

More people I know choose 9 over 40 rather than 40 over .45.


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Then why would you not ask the same re. 45, which has even less capacity? 40 has an undeniable performance advantage over 9mm, regardless of the debate over how important that is and recoil, etc. etc., whereas that doesn't exist between 40 and 45. If it's about capacity we should be killing off 45, not 40.
 
Flashpoint said:
Then why would you not ask the same re. 45, which has even less capacity? 40 has an undeniable performance advantage over 9mm, regardless of the debate over how important that is and recoil, etc. etc., whereas that doesn't exist between 40 and 45. If it's about capacity we should be killing off 45, not 40.
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What needs to be done then is you need to define the “why are we comparing these calibers”.

For CCW? Home defense? Range toys? Target shooting? Competition?

The reason we have so many calibers to begin with is so many of them fill certain niches better than others.

.22 is king of the plinkers
.380 is king of micro pocket pistols
9mm is king of CCW
.45 is king of specific platforms like the 1911 which is a widely popular platform.


.40, while obviously an effective round, really isn’t the “best” at anything. Then again, no round is really “best” at anything. They all have pros and cons. In my opinion, the reason “niche” rounds like the .40, .357 sig, .45 GAP and the like suffer is their lack of platforms and availability.

Most gun owners buy what’s most available, because it’s what’s at the store when they get there. Most gun owners don’t internalize and crunch numbers as much as us “gun guys” do. So when they go to a store they see a wall of 9mm, multiple firearms chambered in 9mm, so they buy a 9mm.


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BatteryOaksBilly said:
This know nothing can't be told or even shown....he is insignificant in a firearms conversation.
We once attempted to make a .45 acp equal insofar as weight and velocity to a 10mm...we failed.
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Tsk tsk with the personal attacks Billy. I have never claimed to be anything but insignificant in a firearms conversation. Or at least any more significant than any other interwebz expert. Now let’s not dirty up this thread as well.


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All my .40 pistols are police trades and I got a lot of ammo trading 9mm a few years ago along with my Walmart hoarding at the ammo fire sale.
 
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I’ve, got some .40s but I don’t like them. The only reason I keep mine is that my son gave them to me.
 
I love the .40cal. Have a few SR40's, a P94, and a PC40 carbine. Was waiting for SA to make the XDS .40 in 4" and they never did. I don't care for the newer version.
 
I’m gonna be in the minority here.

I’ve never carried a 9mm. I don’t even own a semi-auto handgun in 9mm. I do have an AR/SBR and an AR/pistol…and a Charter Arms Pitbull in 9mm. And I do have conversion barrels for my .40 Glocks.

I carry a G23 5x a week and a G21 2x a week.

.40 is what the cool kids still carry. 😁
 
I have a P239 and G22 in .40, also have 9mm conversion bbls for both.
In hindsight I probably would have passed on a .40 but hey, they are still fun to shoot and will get the job done all day long.

I will say that I am not volunteering to take a hit from a .40 despite all the hate . . .

Lets all recall the genesis of the .40 was FBI drama at ineffective 9mm hits in a gunfight - 10mm was the solution but not all agents could handle that cartridge in qualification drills. Thus the .40 'Short and Weak' became LEO go-to as agencies everywhere adopted the FBI choice.
 
B00ger said:
What needs to be done then is you need to define the “why are we comparing these calibers”.

For CCW? Home defense? Range toys? Target shooting? Competition?

The reason we have so many calibers to begin with is so many of them fill certain niches better than others.

.22 is king of the plinkers
.380 is king of micro pocket pistols
9mm is king of CCW
.45 is king of specific platforms like the 1911 which is a widely popular platform.


.40, while obviously an effective round, really isn’t the “best” at anything. Then again, no round is really “best” at anything. They all have pros and cons. In my opinion, the reason “niche” rounds like the .40, .357 sig, .45 GAP and the like suffer is their lack of platforms and availability.

Most gun owners buy what’s most available, because it’s what’s at the store when they get there. Most gun owners don’t internalize and crunch numbers as much as us “gun guys” do. So when they go to a store they see a wall of 9mm, multiple firearms chambered in 9mm, so they buy a 9mm.


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The title of the thread is 40 vs 45. :) I don't know for certain but I expect more weapons were made in 40 than 45 over the last 10-15 years, and almost certainly more 40 ammo was sold than 45. You make a good point though that there aren't tons of "iconic" weapons out there chambered in 40 like there are in 45.

The point I'm making is that as a defensive round 40 is as capable as 45 and offers greater capacity, 9mm guys should like that. ;) What I'm hearing you say at least in part is that it's not the round itself as much as it's the gun it's chambered in, and the iconic status of the 1911 rubs off on the 45ACP, whereas the .40 has no iconic "anchor weapon" to bestow greatness upon it, and I can accept that. 👍
 
Jmoser said:
I have a P239 and G22 in .40, also have 9mm conversion bbls for both.
In hindsight I probably would have passed on a .40 but hey, they are still fun to shoot and will get the job done all day long.

I will say that I am not volunteering to take a hit from a .40 despite all the hate . . .

Lets all recall the genesis of the .40 was FBI drama at ineffective 9mm hits in a gunfight - 10mm was the solution but not all agents could handle that cartridge in qualification drills. Thus the .40 'Short and Weak' became LEO go-to as agencies everywhere adopted the FBI choice.
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Which is a hilarious moniker because the current cool kid approved defensive round is short and even weaker.
 
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draco88 said:
Yeah, Id have to see that to believe it, honestly.
It may be true and it may not, but one thing I absolutely know 100% for sure: I like my fingers atrached to my hand and my face free of shrapnel.
Not gonna push my luck lol
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You know now that I've thought about it, he might have just been saying that he could load the .40 cases to higher pressures, not necsssarily getting better perfomance than 10mm. !0mm case capacity would almost certainly give better performance even if you were able to load .40 to something over 10mm pressures. There's really not that much difference: 40S&W = 35,000, 10mm = 37,500.
 
il_794xN.1444683267_etgl.jpg

9mm -> .40 -> .45

.45 Ranger T: For those times when you're in a gunfight, ducking, bullets going past you as the bad guy is ducking/dodging - and you forgot to take your "shot placement" to the Publix that day.


JUST KIDDING. I carry all three calibers and sometimes .380. I had my Glock 23 grip modified around 1994, and that's been one of my favorites.

EDIT: And yes, those rounds are just from ballistic gelatin tests - for what they're worth. And changes Glock 43 to 23
 
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Dan0311 said:
View attachment 439707

9mm -> .40 -> .45

.45 Ranger T: For those times when you're in a gunfight, ducking, bullets going past you as the bad guy is ducking/dodging - and you forgot to take your "shot placement" to the Publix that day.


JUST KIDDING. I carry all three calibers and sometimes .380. I had my Glock 43 grip modified around 1994, and that's been one of my favorites.

EDIT: And yes, those rounds are just from ballistic gelatin tests - for what they're worth.
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Un-blacked Black Talons. :)
 
Flashpoint said:
I remember way back a guy on GlockTalk saying he could load 40 way over spec, hotter than he could load 10mm. Something about the brass being thicker. Possibly that was a particular brand of brass, I don't know and I expect many would call him out on that, but that's what he said.
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draco88 said:
Yeah, Id have to see that to believe it, honestly.
It may be true and it may not, but one thing I absolutely know 100% for sure: I like my fingers atrached to my hand and my face free of shrapnel.
Not gonna push my luck lol
Click to expand...

Flashpoint said:
You know now that I've thought about it, he might have just been saying that he could load the .40 cases to higher pressures, not necsssarily getting better perfomance than 10mm. !0mm case capacity would almost certainly give better performance even if you were able to load .40 to something over 10mm pressures. There's really not that much difference: 40S&W = 35,000, 10mm = 37,500.
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My gut says the gentlemen whom your thinking of went by "Clark" and he is, or was, known for doing truly *destructive* testing of various arms.

He is the one that managed to get people to start thinking of the CZ-52 (Or rather Vz-52) as a "weak and dangerous pistol" because he ran some truly nuclear loads through it, and the TT-33 And banana peeled the 52 and the TT held together. The loads were beyond nuclear.

In the case of .40 s&w vs 10mm, he noted that the small primer cases inherent in .40 allowed them to hold together better then the large primer cases inherent to the 10mm....

Once again, we are talking *psychotic* levels of over pressure. Like well beyond even what a reloader could conceivably do by accident.

We are talking compressed loads that he claimed to need to compress multiple times in specialized tools to get to a point where they were not pushing the projo out of the case.

I wonder if he ever got ahold of any small primer 10mm cases? Likely would have had a grand time.


Anyway, while his data is indeed interesting, it is also completely divorced from any meaningful comparison to sane, safe reloading practices.


The .40 s&w simply runs at a lower pressure, has less case capacity, and is much more touchy about setback then 10mm.

In a given situation, given equal barrel lengths, the 10mm is always going to push a heavier slug faster at a lower pressure then the .40 s&w.

There is no replacement for displacement!
 
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Flashpoint said:
The title of the thread is 40 vs 45. :) I don't know for certain but I expect more weapons were made in 40 than 45 over the last 10-15 years, and almost certainly more 40 ammo was sold than 45. You make a good point though that there aren't tons of "iconic" weapons out there chambered in 40 like there are in 45.

The point I'm making is that as a defensive round 40 is as capable as 45 and offers greater capacity, 9mm guys should like that. ;) What I'm hearing you say at least in part is that it's not the round itself as much as it's the gun it's chambered in, and the iconic status of the 1911 rubs off on the 45ACP, whereas the .40 has no iconic "anchor weapon" to bestow greatness upon it, and I can accept that. [emoji106]
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I not saying that’s >the< reason, but I am sure it is >a< reason.

I just know when most new shooters get into the game they are recommended 9mm more than probably most other calibers. Mainly because of how common it is, it’s effectiveness, and it’s availability. So many oeoooe start their new gun journey with 9mm.

Other calibers are also very capable. No doubt. And I guess my point of changing your original narrative a bit is that I rarely hear people argue .40>.45. Possibly because the .40 was supposed to be an alternative to the weaker (at the time) 9mm and not an alternative to the .45 which was already losing its popularity to the higher capacity bottom feeders.


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All my non-pocket pistol EDC's are .40's.

I have a competition gun in .40.

I didn't buy a 9mm until 2016 maybe? I have those in Sig's 226 and i have one 9mm in same model as my .40 comp gun.

If you do the calcs, .40 has more "energy" than either the 9mm or .45ACP. But energy isn't everything for defense. Big part, but not everything.
 
BigWaylon said:
.40 is what the cool kids still carry. 😁
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First pistol I ever bought all by myself was a G23. I was king of cool in 1992 with my plastic 40 back when everyone else was still using metal in 45 or those big old wonder nines.

Here we are just a few years later and 40 is once again making me cool. Just gotta pull the G23 back out of the safe... still have a box of period correct Golden Sabers to load it up with.
 
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