45-70

Chihuahua Floyd

Chihuahua Floyd

Happy to be here
Joined
Dec 20, 2016
Messages
1,523
Location
Bryson City, NC
Rating - 100%
3   0   0
Plan to teach a friend to load with the 45-70.
If he can get dies.
I have a few 405 g 0.458 bullets, but only one powder listed in any of my manuals.
Can 45-70 be loaded with Red Dot or Unique?
Thanks.
 
This is the only info I have on 45-7020210125_210044.jpg
 
Do you want mouse fart loads, middle loads, or kick in the teeth loads? What rifle are you loading for?
The loads listed above are Ruger No 1 loads.
 
Last edited:
I had some data on the .458, but need to know what .458 it is. Well I see 45/70fan just posted. He may be your best bet
 
Last edited:
Unique and red dot are probably too fast to do anything practical for 45-70.
 
  • Like
Reactions: S4f
I'll check my older books. You may can use Unique with cast bullets, doubt it with jacketed bullets.
 
Trail Boss or IMR3031

You might be able to use a small charge of pistol powder with a really light bullet, look for button bullets. Powder position in that big case would probably be an issue.
 
  • Like
Reactions: S4f
Chihuahua Floyd said:
Plan to teach a friend to load with the 45-70.
If he can get dies.
Click to expand...
Everything related to hand loading, and any supplies is currently extremely limited, very expensive, if available at all in todays market. About the only place I have been able to find anything recently is on GunBroker, I took the liberty this morning to look for 45/70 dies for you. There are some available, and the price is good, normal or nearly so.......I would get the RCBS which is the first one listed.........

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/890345376

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/890412181

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/890488384


Chihuahua Floyd said:
Can 45-70 be loaded with Red Dot or Unique?
Click to expand...

Probably, but NO! These are under normal circumstances too fast for 45/70.


If you have or have access to IMR 4198 that is your very best all around do anything powder for 45/70. I have downloaded any weight bullet you wish, including many many 405 cast or jacketed, with 28/IMR 4198 for a very low pressure light load that will run about 1200 fps or so in most any gun. I don't have pressure data on that load, but have shot hundreds of them in various 45/70s over the years. I do have pressure data on 40/IMR 4198 at various times from 28000 to 30000 PSI and 1500-1600 fps. If you suspect correctly and talking WEAK action, then the 28/IMR 4198 will do what you want.

RL 7 is probably the best powder for top end loads, and it can most likely be downloaded fairly easy too. RL 7 and IMR 4198 are very close. @JimB mentions Trail Boss, which would also be good for light loads, IMR 3031 is an old time 45/70 powder, but I never cared for it very much myself, but it has been used for longer than I have been around I imagine. And that has been awhile!!!!. You can also find IMR 4198 or most any other powder available on GunBroker, but it is totally insane and at a very minimum you would be lucky to get it at X2 normal price. Some I have seen are over $100 per lb. Just a really bad time to not have supplies on hand.

If you do not have these powders, it would help to know what you have on hand.
 
5744 works great on 45 70 and I have done some testing with varget too which did well. I need to look at my data on 4198.....cant remember which power I tested that was sensitive to the cold.
5744 SD under 3, accuracy great and not case sensitive or cold sensitive. But I am loading my 530gr cast !
 
Last edited:
It has been a while since I loaded for .45-70 but when I did I had good luck loading "lower end" ammunition with 2400. It is bulky so it doesn't leave a huge air space in the case and it is slow burning, relatively speaking.

Looking at my old data I was getting about 1350 fps with a SD of 9 fps using 21 grains of 2400, a 425 grain cast bullet, and Winchester LR primers.
 
60 grains of FFG Black Powder works well in my 1873 Trapdoor. Get the real stuff. It is easier to locate than smokeless, and safer for the gun.
 
It’s been mentioned a few times, but just to reiterate, the 45/70 has been around for a long time and is fired in actions of different strengths. A load for a Ruger #1 will spontaneously disassemble a trapdoor springfield.
 
JimB said:
It’s been mentioned a few times, but just to reiterate, the 45/70 has been around for a long time and is fired in actions of different strengths. A load for a Ruger #1 will spontaneously disassemble a trapdoor springfield.
Click to expand...

^^^^This can't be said enough times!!! ^^^^
We really need to know what rifle you have. The 45/70 has three load levels... Level 1 = Trapdoor /// Level 2 = most other guns /// Level 3 = Ruger No 1
 
Last edited:
trapdoor 405gr lead 29gr imr 4198, 11 gr unique did well for me.
a 60s reloading manual said 15 gr Unique was the max for 405 jacketed. It didn't have a 405 lead entry.
with 13 gr I had 3 in about an inch then 2 fliers with one being a keyhole... I stopped there
 
Chihuahua Floyd said:
Plan to teach a friend to load with the 45-70.
If he can get dies.
I have a few 405 g 0.458 bullets, but only one powder listed in any of my manuals.
Can 45-70 be loaded with Red Dot or Unique?
Thanks.
Click to expand...

What powder might that be? If you have one powder listed in the manuals, why not use that powder?
 
This might sound ugly but here goes.

You're asking questions about load data but it seems you don't know that there are multiple editions of the loading manuals. I have manuals from Speer, Hornady, Nosler and Sierra in multiple editions, all of which make multiple references to power levels. Each has data changes from edition to edition for any given cartridge.

That said, it seems like your experience in reloading is limited and as such, a 45/70 might not be the best place for either of you to be learning. Straight wall cartridges are different from shoulder cases. Old rifles manufactured for low pressure levels often have rifling that can be damaged by jacketed bullets. 45/70 is a great cartridge but there is a seriously wide range of guns chambered for it.

My advice, get multiple manuals in DEAD TREE FORMAT. Get a burn rate chart. Finally if you aren't sure, ASK. Start low, look for accuracy, be careful.
 
Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook has three sections for the 45-70, each heavily disclaimed. 1) 1873 Springfield 2) Win 1886 & Marlin 1985 and 3) Ruger No. 1 & No. 3
If you know what you're loading for I'll pm you a photo of the book. None of the recipes list Red Dot or Unique though.
 
Watch for pressure signs. If you don't know, ask. You don't want hurt someone by destroying a gun.

Start low. While not a 45/70 I started loading for a 44 Mag Super Blackhawk. I used Unique, a CCI standard large primer and jacketed bullet. Followed the load in the Speed manual at the starting load. It was enough that there were pressure signs. After the first two rounds were shot, I emptied the gun and trashed the remaining loads. Not worth blowing up a gun or myself.

Sent from my SM-J320V using Tapatalk
 
Dave951 said:
This might sound ugly but here goes.

You're asking questions about load data but it seems you don't know that there are multiple editions of the loading manuals. I have manuals from Speer, Hornady, Nosler and Sierra in multiple editions, all of which make multiple references to power levels. Each has data changes from edition to edition for any given cartridge.

That said, it seems like your experience in reloading is limited and as such, a 45/70 might not be the best place for either of you to be learning. Straight wall cartridges are different from shoulder cases. Old rifles manufactured for low pressure levels often have rifling that can be damaged by jacketed bullets. 45/70 is a great cartridge but there is a seriously wide range of guns chambered for it.

My advice, get multiple manuals in DEAD TREE FORMAT. Get a burn rate chart. Finally if you aren't sure, ASK. Start low, look for accuracy, be careful.
Click to expand...
Been doing this for over thirty years. Have the manuals, know about weak, strong and in between actions. I just know that there are safe loads using powders my manuals may not list. That was the intent of my question.
CF
 
The only thing I could find, they have one load listed for Unique.

http://stevespages.com/458_1_385.html

Keep in mind the nature of these loads, I seriously doubt any of them were pressure tested, and they don't list which actions for which loads.
 
Chihuahua Floyd said:
Can 45-70 be loaded with Red Dot or Unique?
Click to expand...


I said probably, but No.........

Ok, peaked my curiosity. I was on the range anyway this morning, I have a Marlin with a strain gage, so figured to give it a go and do some actual data with Unique.

405 Remington FN Soft 15/Unique Winchester Large Rifle Primer

First thing I noticed when I hooked up was the voltage on the gage reading 4.28. Normally we like something around 4.10-4.14 gives steady data. I changed wires, and the voltage dropped to 4.12, perfect. I was also getting some readings by moving the wire, never a good sign, so I taped everything down and started the test over again. Seemed steady enough, so I fired the first round. OK, didn't blow anything up, extract easy, every indicator looked fine and velocity was just under 1100 fps. Pressure reading 53300 PSI???????? Hmmmm???? I don't think so. Fired the second round (just starting I only had two rounds loaded), velocity little more than 1100 fps, same story, easy extraction, all indicators great, Pressure 53200 PSI?????? No, I am not buying that!

I had some range 45/70 on hand, don't know what bullet, powder charge, nothing, but I know I don't load 45/70 past 45000 end of story. Tested this, and it all tested out at 53300-53200 PSI too........... We have a strain gage failure, and need to do a new one for this gun.

I was going to do you guys some real time load data with this, but that is not going to happen.

What I can say is that with a 405 Remington and 15/Unique, it seems to be very light, and does not seem to be much of an issue. But I only fired two rounds, so you can take it from there. I will consider putting a new gage on it, probably will, but that will take some time anyway...... Sorry...........The two rounds averaged 1109 fps with 29 fps EX Spread. For what it's worth. There were no fillers added, and I would not use any. Fillers can produce erratic pressures, especially dacron.
 
I think it was the end of last week I finally got around to checking that strain gage. After removing the protective tape it was indeed loose and had lost its bond. No wonder, I don't understand why I chose that damn gun to begin with, it had engraving under the gage and bond, and was sure to loose bond at some point....... Oh well.....

I chose another gun, I have 4 of these things laying around currently anyway. I added the strain gage, let it sit for 24 hours, then taped over it to protect it and it sit for probably another 3-4 days curing. I decided today was the day to revisit this, my curiosity peaked..... But first, we had to check the strain gage connection to make sure it was good, and on top of that we had to check a known load to see how it compared with past tests.

This will be the third Marlin set up with strain gage and tested.

The old standby Load is 405 Remington with 40/IMR 4198.

From my data I see I tested this load on 12/21/2005 and at that time it gave 1615 fps at 32600 PSI.
Another gun, tested on 8/22/2014 it gave1540 fps at 28600 PSI. Both Velocity and Pressure lower than the 2005 test, but still within 4000 PSI, which is acceptable, especially considering velocity matches the lower pressure given.
Now, today, yet a different gun and new strain gage the same load gives 1621 fps at 30100 PSI. Well within spec.

This is 3 different guns, span of 15 plus years, different brass, primers, powder..... yeah, I would say well within reason and spec. I feel more than confident we are getting good readings.

Now, on to the question at hand, that peaked my curiosity...............

Chihuahua Floyd said:
Can 45-70 be loaded with Red Dot or Unique?
Click to expand...


I tried a 405 Remington with 15/Unique a couple of weeks ago. Very light load, showed no real pressures, and tested at 1109 fps in the other gun.

Today, in the different rifle, now connected with a proper gage we get 1122 fps and 25600 PSI average. While the velocity gave a very low ES (Extreme Spread) the ES for pressures was not good at 3700 PSI. This is not acceptable to me.

I went up to 405 Remington with 17/Unique for 1230 fps at 31200 PSI. ES was stupid good with velocity, and a little better with 2800 PSI on pressures.

DSCN1803-X3.jpg



Rules of Pressure...... #1 Rule WEIGHT EQUAL PRESSURE

I dropped the bullet weight down and tested a 300 Remington HP

Using 17/Unique with the 300 Rem HP we get 1335 fps at 21700 PSI ES was 2200 PSI

Moving up to 20/Unique 300 Rem HP we get 1517 fps at 28600 PSI ES 2600 PSI.

I will accept the larger ES for PSI for these light loads, normally when they top over 2000 PSI ES I start looking at them harder... but for these type of loads not really sure it makes much difference. What is crazy is the ES for velocity is stupid low on all of them........ They would appear to be great loads if that is all you looked at.......... I suppose they are plenty good enough, if they meet your Pressure parameters......

I believe some thing was mentioned about pressures for TrapDoor guns? I really do not know what the upper end is for those weaker guns, since I never dealt with any personally....... Just a quick search as I type this I see 21000 PSI mentioned on one search, and 28000 PSI mentioned for modern replicas........ Before you shoot yours, make sure you know...........Knowing this, I would probably stay with the lighter bullets......... especially with Unique.

I am going to dive into this a little further on the Pressure Works thread I started before this..... Here, I am just addressing the Unique question. Over there, I suppose I am going to do some Paste/Copy and you will see nearly the same thing, but I have some other loads to list..........
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom