55gr, 62gr, 77gr... makes no difference for me

Jayne

Jayne

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I think my PSA AR has a loose trigger nut. Wolf 55gr, brown bear 62gr, my own 77gr SMK hand loads with the sized, trimmed, chamfered brass and charges trickled to the 1/10th grain at various charges of 4895... all shoot about 2 MOA. Sometimes worse, sometimes better (best today was 1.06" with the 77gr), but as seen today at a range session... averages about 2" at 100 yards.

I'm really hoping it's just me at this point, would hate to think "this is it" with this rifle. Next weekend I'm going to break out my GAP 308 and a known good load and if not sub-MOA like it was in the old days, then it's me. If it is... then.... yea, barrel upgrade time on the AR. :)


Last time I tried all of these, and while the gold dot were the best, it was still nothing to get excited about:

62gr_loads.jpg
 
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Are you expecting match grade results from a non-match barrel?

What trigger?
 
A 2 stage trigger might help...a lot. Also, are you using an optic? Barrel twist? Most factory ammo is too hot to be very accurate. 4" at 100yds is what I understand to be "mil spec" or "combat accurate". Not accurate enough for me. I spec'd out an upper and lower from PSA for a buddy. He works all the time. I took it to the range to break in for him. Sub moa with just about everything I put through it. Used a 20X Nikon scope that I have for testing. I recently traded a PSA upper for an Armalite heavy bbl upper. 8 twist but I was playing with 55gr handloads using the tried and true Sierra accuracy load of 20.5 grains of RE#7. Got about an inch 5 shot group and that was the best of 4 different AR's I had to test in. A 9 twist would probably do better with a 55 gr bullet. Talked to an old XTC service rifle shooter yesterday and was surprised to find out he does not shoot any cannellured bullets except if the match requires him to shoot issued ammo. I would have thought no cannelure would mean bullet jump in an AR and be detrimental to accuracy, but evidently not. I use mainly bullets with a cannelure and a medium to heavy crimp in an AR. No cannelure and no crimp in a bolt gun.
 
Slacker said:
"Non match grade"
I hear some of them have extra tight match grade chambers.

;)
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Not saying this is the OP but some folks are surprised when that 1:9 Bushmaster shoots like a $450 rifle.

I only use the terminology because it’s widely accepted as a quality/performance standard
 
jimmyjames8 said:
A 2 stage trigger might help...a lot. Also, are you using an optic? Barrel twist? Most factory ammo is too hot to be very accurate. 4" at 100yds is what I understand to be "mil spec" or "combat accurate". Not accurate enough for me. I spec'd out an upper and lower from PSA for a buddy. He works all the time. I took it to the range to break in for him. Sub moa with just about everything I put through it. Used a 20X Nikon scope that I have for testing. I recently traded a PSA upper for an Armalite heavy bbl upper. 8 twist but I was playing with 55gr handloads using the tried and true Sierra accuracy load of 20.5 grains of RE#7. Got about an inch 5 shot group and that was the best of 4 different AR's I had to test in. A 9 twist would probably do better with a 55 gr bullet. Talked to an old XTC service rifle shooter yesterday and was surprised to find out he does not shoot any cannellured bullets except if the match requires him to shoot issued ammo. I would have thought no cannelure would mean bullet jump in an AR and be detrimental to accuracy, but evidently not. I use mainly bullets with a cannelure and a medium to heavy crimp in an AR. No cannelure and no crimp in a bolt gun.
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The only cannelures I use are on 55gr FMJ

My 69+gr heavy bullets are smooth. And no issues regarding accuracy to speak of
 
Have you tried them all at 300 yards?
 
Slacker said:
Isn't 2 MOA considered normal combat accuracy from a rack grade m16?
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M16, isn't that some sort of military weapon? I don't have one of those, regardless of what CNN says.

Btw, I heart your GAP rifle.
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good thing you put the word "rifle" in there, or this would be really awkward.
 
11B CIB said:
Are you expecting match grade results from a non-match barrel?
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Um, yes?

I figured that if I'm getting 2-3-4" groups out of a wide variety of the cheapest wolf/tula ammo I can find, that it would settle into something much nicer with good quality handloads. Once I've either confirmed or denied it's my skill level then I can either focus on trying more load combos or getting back to skill building.

Seems like modern rifles are getting pretty good vs. 10-15 years ago when you needed high end or custom stuff to break into the accuracy game. Maybe not so on ARs, I'm more of a bolt gun guy.
 
Jayne said:
Um, yes?

I figured that if I'm getting 2-3-4" groups out of a wide variety of the cheapest wolf/tula ammo I can find, that it would settle into something much nicer with good quality handloads. Once I've either confirmed or denied it's my skill level then I can either focus on trying more load combos or getting back to skill building.

Seems like modern rifles are getting pretty good vs. 10-15 years ago when you needed high end or custom stuff to break into the accuracy game. Maybe not so on ARs, I'm more of a bolt gun guy.
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It wasn’t snark, it was a serious question.

Most of these rifles are designed for 2-4MOA accuracy with off the shelf ammo. 5.56mm 1:9-1:7 twist, government/pencil/SOCOM profiles, chrome lined etc....not gonna get the same results as a stainless barrel with a Wylde chamber (for example)
 
Well your getting minute of man so you doing something right lol.

What is a trigger nut? Barrel nut maybe?

All bs aside. With a PSA rifle your not gonna get much better than what your getting
 
Not really a rifle guy but IMHO if you are getting 2 MOA from a PSA AR15 with off the shelf plinking ammo you are about as good as you are going to get. Ar15s are not bolt guns. You might find that your rifle likes one round better than another and get that down a bit but without tailoring the round to the rifle and tweaking the rifle a bit I don't think you will consistently get better results. Most people expect 3-4 MOA from avg rifles with plinking ammo. I am an offhand minute of man kind of guy with a rifle so if I was getting 2 MOA I would be happy.
 
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Jayne said:
Um, yes?

I figured that if I'm getting 2-3-4" groups out of a wide variety of the cheapest wolf/tula ammo I can find, that it would settle into something much nicer with good quality handloads. Once I've either confirmed or denied it's my skill level then I can either focus on trying more load combos or getting back to skill building.

Seems like modern rifles are getting pretty good vs. 10-15 years ago when you needed high end or custom stuff to break into the accuracy game. Maybe not so on ARs, I'm more of a bolt gun guy.
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1st , I agree with most or all here that getting a loose 1MOA or 2MOA that is consistent with run of the mill cheap or cheaper AR parts. For me it's knowing the rig in question and having confidence that I know where the Love is being Delivered consistently and if that is 2 MOA , so be it because it's going to hit something when going for CM.




2nd, being the Red-Headed Step Child, is it possible to fine tune any bang stick to deliver MOA or Sub-MOA performance? I've lived it and my short answer is yes and the med answer is possible but at what cost , both $$$ & Time.

I applaud your efforts to squeeze more out of the rig in question.

I also believe you are tackling the dilemma in a logical fashion in trying different ammo , questioning your technique , etc.

As you fully realize everything involved with shooting, rig itself ~ shooting technique, becomes endless and interrelated variables. Could be as simple as this, at times I've been testing different types of ammo and notice the groups opening up or totally going to hell and after stepping back and running a rope through the barrel the previous performance returns.

One immediate thing that can be checked ~ corrected is scope set-up.
Ya, everyone knows hands down how to set a scope up, as it is simple and basic.

OK, position the firearm as you would shoot it, meaning level or canted , and level the optic using a string or plumb bob. One note, if you , or anyone , uses one of the clamp on picatinny levels I would check it! I don't use them anymore and while it's a pain if I am setting a rig to level I just use a raw level , meaning no holder or fixture, across the rail. One large variable with any optic is introduced if it has a “Fast Focus Eye Piece.” Why? Many scopes with this style ocular are slightly to moderately LOOSE! Frankly I prefer Fast Focus Oculars to be tight and yes almost to the point of needing a small pipe wrench to turn it. Why? Because it will shift or move and gives the shooter a different prospective of the reticle , period. This most definitely effects fine tuning accuracy especially when dealing with other variables , such as all different types of ammo.

I have an AR rig assembled from 2nd hand parts and a cheap barrel that delivers MOA to Sub-MOA performance and whether Luck or skill it's a Win and I'll take it. I also have some that shoot a Loose MOA and 2 MOA.

Safe Shooting
 
I'd look at that barrel and twist. Mine shoots 1/2moa with my handloads done on a single stage press, not so much with factory ammo, esp Wolf. That stuff "may" shoot 1moa on a good day.
 
Jayne said:
Nope. Not seeing what I like at 100, so adding more distance isn't going to make it better.
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Just thinking sometimes a .22, for example, can show poor groups at 50 and excellent groups at 100.
And have read here the same is true for centerfire from 100 and out further.

Just what I have read as I am a Precision rifle Luddite.
 
Just wondering, is your barrel Chrome Lined, Stainless, Phosphate, or Nitride?

Just FWIW, my non-CL CHF Serbian AKM will put 10 shots inside a 3 inch circle at 100yds with Golden Tiger FMJ :D
 
Twist in 1:7, 1-8x optic, barrel and trigger is whatever PSA ships with their $419 kit. Shooting from a bipod and rear bag for these tests, squaring up to the target, firing on the last 1/3 of the cycle, yada, yada. Like I said, hoping it's just me, will verify with another rifle when I can (this saturday unless I go shoot that steel challenge).
 
So you paid $419 for a PSA kit and are bitching about a level of accuracy that both the platform wasn't technically designed to exceed and other shooters spend 4-10x on to achieve?

If that's the case, you can just look in the mirror to find the problem.
 
JRHorne said:
So you paid $419 for a PSA kit and are bitching about a level of accuracy that both the platform wasn't technically designed to exceed and other shooters spend 4-10x on to achieve?

If that's the case, you can just look in the mirror to find the problem.
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There is a difference between "bitching" and "wondering if it's the rifle or me".

But I should know better than to post stuff like that here. Someday I'll learn.
 
Jayne said:
There is a difference between "bitching" and "wondering if it's the rifle or me".

But I should know better than to post stuff like that here. Someday I'll learn.
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Fair enough. And you're post was good, so apologies for being so negative. I'll say this: do you "need" to shoot more accurate than what you're currently acheiving with the rifle? You could always just shoot the balls off the gun and either build a more accurate upper or a second rifle all together once you've determined the limits of the PSA.
 
With rifles I never have to worry is it the gun or is it me. It is always ME. :eek:
 
@Jayne IMO 2moa is pretty good for using a bipod, stock trigger, cheap ammo and a value-type rifle. My guess is with a better trigger and ammo you could clean it up a little. And sometimes bipods aren't the best platform either. If you used bags, ammo and a nice trigger you'd likely see some improvement, but it sounds like your shooting is pretty good.
 
PSA kit for 419$ gives you 2moa with wolf ammo. I think I’d be truly happy. It could be 6moa.
I gave more then that for my barrel and if it doesn’t put them all in the same hole, I’m pissed.

I think you are getting all the gun can deliver.
Be happy. :D
 
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ps ... lots of things factor into that 2moa.
Barrel is a large part but the trigger plays big too. The glass is a major factor also. If you can’t adjust out all of the parallax it can screw with your groups. Limited power makes it tougher to tighten those groups up.

Lots of stuff.
 
backwoodsshooter said:
What is a trigger nut? Barrel nut maybe?
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Old school lingo for the "nut" behind the trigger. The trigger nut is the most important component to accuracy. A bad trigger nut won't shoot worth a darn with the most accurate rifle. :)
 
"Trigger Nut"...that would be a great screen name.
 
NKD said:
Just thinking sometimes a .22, for example, can show poor groups at 50 and excellent groups at 100.
And have read here the same is true for centerfire from 100 and out further.
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What you're referring to is that some bullets take a while to stabilize in flight and exhibit more consistant accuracy further down range after stabilization.

Ikarus1 said:
just need to run more lube
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You have to run 'em wet.
 
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JRHorne said:
If that's the case, you can just look in the mirror to find the problem.
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I’d say the problem is posting here and getting responses like this from people like you. You don’t have to belittle folks in every other post. Knock it off please
 
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Burt Gummer said:
I’d say the problem is posting here and getting responses like this from people like you. You don’t have to belittle folks in every other post. Knock it off please
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Burt, see my follow up post. Yes, it was unbecoming. But it's far from every other post.
 
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