Balancing training and the cost of ammo.

backbonz

backbonz

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This is a real dilemma. Ive never had a formal training class, and I really wanting to take a pistol and carbine course. The thought of going through 600+ rounds of ammo, makes one think.
Im trying to tell myself that the value of the ammo, will be worth the skills I will learn in a class. Better put, the skills I could possible learn will be more valuable, thus, increasing the implied value of the ammo I will have after instruction...

just thinking out loud here. Anyone agree?

...and I thought I had enough ammo in 2006...uuugh
 
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I just took a class and shot maybe 70 rounds. I had a blast and felt I got more than my money’s worth for the small amount I shot.
 
I’m in Charlotte. I’ve looked at Black Rifle, which has some courses coming up in the spring.
Id welcome any advice or recommendations. Obviously, I’d love to be close to home if possible, but would travel. Id rather not travel for basic courses.
 
A thought from the other side....

Training without ammo is like having a very expensive paperweight. Make sure to throw it in accordance to the tactical training received.

We all need training, but I am not in any way, going to lessen my ammo stocks right now for it.
 
You can do everything but the BANG dry. Practice some of the drills dry and top it off with some bangs. I would think any instructor would understand and work with you if you were taking a class and only had XXX rounds to shoot. Muscle memory, malfunction clearances and fundamentals still get developed by dry practice.

Just my .02
 
Me. said:
Range 37.

Calendar | 37 Psr Gun Club

Our training calendar lets you know all the training events that are coming up for the next 6 months. Sign up early as classes are small and fill quick
37psr.com 37psr.com
Look at the course on Feb 6. They provide airsoft carbines for the training, then live fire for verification of acquired skills.

I did the pistol class last month and was impressed with the number of reps you can get in, and the skills you can build.

We all know how a gun goes “bang”, and we all have plenty of reps with that.

I realize it’s a haul from where you are, though.
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Now that's forward thinking on their part.
 
I used to have a few gift certs to pyramid air... i wonder if they're still good...
i've been looking into laser and dry fire systems lately. I have ammo, but if i wanted to be without it these days i'd sell it and have a nice downpayment on a new truck.
 
ug. i just looked at pyramid air and almost everything is out of stock. but at least i have codes for $50 off
 
Members, in today's climate you must always remember...Information taken in and stored does not Have to equal X amount of ammo down range.
One of my favorite "Cooperisms" is...Live fire is for verification of your training. Every class I ever took gave me Valuable info. The class will compress your learning skills. You might have come up with the info Eventually, but the class will give you info you haven't yet thought about.
I shoot everyday. I learn from the shooters who come here. Almost on a weekly basis I see something to Remember. Often, it is what Not to do.
After you have Vetted your Trainer, go for it. You Will learn something.
 
backbonz said:
This is a real dilemma. Ive never had a formal training class, and I really wanting to take a pistol and carbine course. The thought of going through 600+ rounds of ammo, makes one think.
Im trying to tell myself that the value of the ammo, will be worth the skills I will learn in a class. Better put, the skills I could possible learn will be more valuable, thus, increasing the implied value of the ammo I will have after instruction...

just thinking out loud here. Anyone agree?

...and I thought I had enough ammo in 2006...uuugh
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I’ve been fighting the same thoughts...I’m in the Charlotte area too and would prefer as you do training fairly local.
 
I think it depends on your end goal, where you're at, and how you learn.

Personally I benefit from shooting with and/or being critiqued by better shooters that are blunt and capable of articulating their observations and solutions in an individualized manner, that opportunity has been worth my time and money. That has not been my experience with every instructor.

There is a great deal of information available online that can be practiced live and/or dry with great success if you are completely honest in your self assessments, it is easy to lie or make excuses. Most people doing things take reps, analysis, and accountability far beyond a day or two to show improvement. Classes rarely catapult skills forward.

My advice, get mediocre, if you aren't, then find someone to tell you what you suck at.
 
pwhit74 said:
I’ve been fighting the same thoughts...I’m in the Charlotte area too and would prefer as you do training fairly local.
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I can put you in contact with someone out of Asheville area. It’s worth the drive.
 
amnesia said:
I can put you in contact with someone out of Asheville area. It’s worth the drive.
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I’ve had some guys recommend SpecTrain and Fortitude Consulting. I don’t mind a drive if it’s worth the training...always up for recommendations. Thanks
 
Beef15 said:
it is easy to lie or make excuses
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I have asked for Years for people to practice "Presentation" for 3 Minutes a day. 3 Minutes...not all at once....10 seconds at the time.......My observation is we have around 2% that will do this vital excercize.
 
Just my four cents...............Dry fire, Run through your transitions from AR to Handgun, and back. Dry fire. Perform reloads until you can literally perform it in the dark. Dry fire. Practice walking in all directions and while keeping your sight picture while...... Dry firing and performing reloads. Dry fire. I have recently started because the cost is prohibitive to shoot. May I suggest Airsoft as an alternative. Get the same model handgun and close proximity of the AR you plan to run. Use your existing holsters and mag carriers. Airsoft is an acceptable alternative in tough times.
 
Elenaidan said:
Just my four cents...............Dry fire, Run through your transitions from AR to Handgun, and back. Dry fire. Perform reloads until you can literally perform it in the dark. Dry fire. Practice walking in all directions and while keeping your sight picture while...... Dry firing and performing reloads. Dry fire. I have recently started because the cost is prohibitive to shoot. May I suggest Airsoft as an alternative. Get the same model handgun and close proximity of the AR you plan to run. Use your existing holsters and mag carriers. Airsoft is an acceptable alternative in tough times.
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Other than I don't know squat about Airsoft, This is a grand Post.

They won't give me 3 minutes a day.......98% just want Immediate results......They don't like the "work" part...if 3 minutes a day can be considered "work".
I have to make folks shoot from the car, shoot from the table, shoot from cover.....that same 98% stand on their hind legs and Blast away at Big steel. I had 2 cops here recently I had to Tell them to shoot from the car, table and cover. It's like folks don't want to try to experience something that Can actually happen. Stand up, no draw from concealment, bring the gun up at a leasurely pace and shoot a steel target 18 inches in diameter at 10 yards.
As always ALL are welcome. Come and do as you want...but at the price of ammo today.....I mean DAMN! Try to LEARN something.
 
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As mentioned earlier, I learn the most by training with people who are better than me. I've learned from competitive shooters, as well as LEO and military guys. The gruff guys who come off as jerks are often the better ones to learn from. I had an old retired DI tell me he smash my f'ing elbow if I stuck a chicken wing out from cover again. He would have too. I didn't.
I was in a class in Illinois where we only shot like 20 rounds an afternoon. That was shoot/don't shoot.
Another class was spent mostly learning to treat gunshot wounds, but occasionally the instructor would call threat and we'd have to get to cover or fight.
Look into what's out there. Training is more than trigger pulling.
 
Timfoilhat said:
Another class was spent mostly learning to treat gunshot wounds, but occasionally the instructor would call threat and we'd have to get to cover or fight.
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This has been going on here for about the last 6 weeks. During the week. The guy putting on the class has No trouble getting students. I watch from the porches,,pretty damn impressive. Men from 30-40 can be made into hard machines if they had the proper 0-20 raisins.
 
backbonz said:
This is a real dilemma. Ive never had a formal training class, and I really wanting to take a pistol and carbine course. The thought of going through 600+ rounds of ammo, makes one think.
Im trying to tell myself that the value of the ammo, will be worth the skills I will learn in a class. Better put, the skills I could possible learn will be more valuable, thus, increasing the implied value of the ammo I will have after instruction...

just thinking out loud here. Anyone agree?

...and I thought I had enough ammo in 2006...uuugh
Click to expand...

I would recommend training classes. I don't think you can beat Apex Defense Group for what you get for the money. I have been to over a hundred classes there of one form or another. I now go to hang out and have fun, but maybe I'm not normal

Round counts are definitely lower now. We had a drills class Saturday with pistol and rifle. We just did drills one at a time on the timer. 75 pistol/75 rifle was the round count. I don't think we shot anything close to that with rifle. Sure you are going to learn skills, but you also figure out things about your gear. You talk to other people and see what they do, what they run. It is eye opening and will make you better on many levels. I always tell younger people think of it as leveling up your skills like a game. Can you learn and practice watching you tube? maybe, if your super motivated. For many of us, the importance of having an instructor and being able to ask questions cannot be under stated.
 
Variable said:
For many of us, the importance of having an instructor and being able to ask questions cannot be under stated.
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Another point on this...being able to have some expert eyes on what you're doing (wrong) and hold you accountable so you learn not to do that is important too. I'd "cheat" my way through a course of fire by sticking out too far from cover. The instructor calls me on my crap and tells me I'm dead, whacks the back of my head when I don't look behind me, points out all my lazy that's going to get me hurt if the range was 2 way.
 
Apex Defense Group said:
We have lowered round counts for all of our courses and are substituting some courses with airsoft/force on force for some aspects in certain classes. We would love to have you guys out!
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I agree with the Airsoft, I bought matching pistols, got close on the Ar and shotgun in the Airsoft line and learned to draw from the holster fast and safe with the airsoft Glock 17 a year ago , got a Lancer Tactical Ar loaded it down with weight to simulate my real Ar, got an Airsoft range set up in my 13 stall barn and in the hay loft, Force on Force is FUN.. Also can shoot 30 yards inside, cut out the lights go Nods or laser.. To much fun, shoot 1000 rounds for $5. Bad thing no one shoots Airsoft in Asheville area. Got less than the price of 500 rounds of good quality ammo in the whole setup.. I think. .It has improved my ability to acquire sight picture fast ,tremendously . AIRSOFT IS KING, During a ammo shortage. Also in CQB. You can buy everything including a cheap red dot, all 3 guns and 20,000 round and co2 for many training exercise's for less than one SIRT 110 pistol.
 
frakncylons said:
Remember the Japanese guy that won the Steel Challenge in the mid 2000s? Yea, they don’t have guns in Japan. He trained with airsoft.
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Watch Trex video and watch that young Japanese man tear up some steel and paper after just a few rounds getting use to the recoil.. That sold me.. My weak side transition's have improved 100% because of Airsoft Ar.
 
The airsoft pistols I have will bring blood if your in a t-shirt from as far as about 4-5 yards. I just ordered a Colt branded AR airsoft, will be here tomorrow. Gonna get some time in with it this Sunday.
@Hashknife

Sent from my moto g power (XT2041DL) using Tapatalk
 
Stick Man said:
The airsoft pistols I have will bring blood if your in a t-shirt from as far as about 4-5 yards. I just ordered a Colt branded AR airsoft, will be here tomorrow. Gonna get some time in with it this Sunday.
@Hashknife

Sent from my moto g power (XT2041DL) using Tapatalk
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@Stick Man Yes Sir! We ready down here!
 
Spartan3gun said:
We cover up completely doing CQB. Light weight welding jacket , a couple of scarves around the neck , gloves and mask.
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When we've done force on force with the pistols, most wore a t-shirt, a couple would wear a sweatshirt, and a paintball mask. I always wore a cup/groin protection, as I'm not wanting to get shot there, lol.

Sent from my moto g power (XT2041DL) using Tapatalk
 
My force on force experience with airsoft guns left scars an my wife's hands. I told her to wear gloves but she didn't listen. I told her her hands were very likely to be the initial target as people track the weapon presented. She found out I wasn't kidding.
Sweatshirt, cup, gloves, full face mask
 
Timfoilhat said:
My force on force experience with airsoft guns left scars an my wife's hands. I told her to wear gloves but she didn't listen. I told her her hands were very likely to be the initial target as people track the weapon presented. She found out I wasn't kidding.
Sweatshirt, cup, gloves, full face mask
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Absolutely, I forgot gloves. We wore mechanics wear gloves. Amazing how much the hands were hit.

Sent from my moto g power (XT2041DL) using Tapatalk
 
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BatteryOaksBilly said:
Other than I don't know squat about Airsoft, This is a grand Post.

They won't give me 3 minutes a day.......98% just want Immediate results......They don't like the "work" part...if 3 minutes a day can be considered "work".
I have to make folks shoot from the car, shoot from the table, shoot from cover.....that same 98% stand on their hind legs and Blast away at Big steel. I had 2 cops here recently I had to Tell them to shoot from the car, table and cover. It's like folks don't want to try to experience something that Can actually happen. Stand up, no draw from concealment, bring the gun up at a leasurely pace and shoot a steel target 18 inches in diameter at 10 yards.
As always ALL are welcome. Come and do as you want...but at the price of ammo today.....I mean DAMN! Try to LEARN something.
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I think 18" is a place to start but prefer a smaller 8" or 6" steel, I think it teaches, more accuracy. Also I belive Airsoft is the way to pratice if you get your same gun you carry especially. My motto I teach "Aim small miss small" and train daily if you can. But train often...
 
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